them through the careers of a same bolt. naomi, a soccer anterior re michael, what not to have you on the, on this program. one of the greatest sports guys ever in this country and was a timely book to come out just after the defeat of england. that you're a 2020. so forest. johnson's home secretary pretty but tell has said it's gesture, politics that people have the right to boot and that black lives matter is dreadful . why do we neil your book school? why we neil? as soon if no one knew why, it wasn't there didn't kneel before this past week. they should know no gesture of kneeling. i think the world wide recognize just of supporting black lives matter and kneeling to show people that you will think that there was injustice and you need dr. martin luther king did it more recently calling cap on equal one who highlighted it. and of course, we know what that's happened to him,

what those who want to see that it is so call it just politics, need to talk to call him company and find out from him if he enhanced is courier or she enhanced his life by sticking on me, you lost his job. you never, ever did you mention the cap and in the book you reject. at the outset that say white police killing black people is an american problem. obviously we had actually we show them in as is killed in brazilian, and against tama, apparently the crown prosecution service refused to prosecute, let alone listen the of other black people, people of color who being killed at the hands of police. this is not an american problem, it is not an american problem that way in the book, i highlighted quite quite a few names from here in the united kingdom when back into the eighty's. and so before that, that's been killed by police brutality. it does not, it is not that big problem here, and you as it is in the united states,

because there are more guns carried by policemen in the united states, and it is so much easier in united states into killing people. i think that since george roy had been on the 101 of those so you know, it's a, it's a big problem. you tell me about that that you were about to go on a sky sports, common dating thing. and, and you heard about what was going on and this presumably made you wanted to write this book. well, not written, would it be on that? i it, when george slide got killed, i was still home in the caribbean and i hadn't arrived yet in the kid to work. that was guy. the motto were and even absolutely sure that we would get critique because of cool be. and then sky had them meeting, zoom, meeting on to the cricket and stuff. and whenever we input brent, i just joined the 1st black woman to representing that

a cricket. and the she was asked about the george light situation on black live matter movement on the demonstration, and knocks them all. her experiences here in united kingdom. and she poured out all of my stuff up. she broke down and cried during that meeting. and the boss of sky creaky brown, henderson decided no, we need to do something about this 3. got yes, let this just go more water on the bridge. and he called me at home in the caribbean and said, we are planning to do. i'll be doing ebony to talk about the matter to talk about. george lied to talk about black experiences. would you be willing to get in what i said? absolutely. so that is a big deal. came on both. what after the big yellow, sean and guys words leading up to the start of the tests. much of course it really and saw this, this test to my, for the league. so it was not to me live on guy after showing the video what it was like to talk about that. and of course, i then went into what i had to see about the black plasma movement,

unable persecution of black people, and the black, maurice and all that. i didn't intend to write a book that actually was more feedback. i got positive feedback. now more people up, i didn't talk to me and said you can stop there. you know, people are listening to you, you have to keep going. and usually i so home i decided, okay, let's right. because that wasn't my intention. well, thanks to the rain then. i mean, you are part of the, one of the greatest sporting teams of all all time and i suppose. but i mean to remind people about what was supposed to be one of the greatest overs in cricketing history. when you bold jeffrey boycott, i mean didn't it make you want to write when you had jeffrey boy, god say, if he's been black to help me become a night to the realm. i mean, you know why they've always thought of being so loyal to us if you would do it. so

that wouldn't include me to make any changes to my life or make any changes to what they intend to do. now racism, of course, as you make here in the book it's, it's much more complicated than it is in our tabloid newspapers. when you talk to the same bolt, the fastest man on earth, he says it was, class is not racism that hit him in jamaica. i mean, surely isn't that the people of color with money are treated better than people of color without money? maybe except for bullies. yeah, but that is the class isn't that you see in board was on the boat and i experience the same thing when i was a young man growing up in geneva, i didn't really experience racism. it's difficult to experience racism in our country with that is predominate, the person you experience is now poetry. that is, if you're a person that is predominant in the white, he moved into this neighborhood of doctors, lawyers,

people who don't very well are university and i've read korea, i've done, i've bought whole homes in this neighborhood. and because he hadn't done all that, despite the fact that he would live amongst them, what my book is, i'm old rios is an unholy. started way. it has been perfect to be a good wife for a couple. and they wanted to have it on exactly is that it has created amongst the people, and i'm not just talking about people who call people because not only black people have suffered because white people are so what not that it can give me a racist against the white person, because in level one risk feeling superior. one other, you see one could make the argument and taking the knee is hardly any progress. i mean, you talk about jesse owens against hitler, but you also mention, mandela, you mentioned louis, veronica, and you mentioned mohammed alleys. opposition to the vietnam war is taking any

enough mandela, or armies. he took up arms as a gauge of civil disobedience. i mean, you talk about even the person that inspired you, a manual. even blake and jamaica jumping into a white certainly pool. are these bigger gestures in the world, pretty patel's gesture politics than just taking the ne you will see in the afternoon is not just the beginning and end up because you can do that along with other things. you don't just need that option. know, have to follow what, what taking the need does is keep the 4 course on the problem. the football team taken in the m, regain people who are talking about that it keeps support. if you stop doing anything or taught hold, do you know that the walk is still on the problem? hold the use for people to keep on thinking that they need to do something. if everything disappears out of sight whole, do you will know that anything is going on. as i say bars,

johnson's secretary says people have a right to bu people have the right to do. i mean, yeah, you cite the oxford university study saying 18 percent believe some races or less intelligent? did it not surprise you after the euro? 2020 final. when we saw graffiti daub done their mom because rash with work in manchester, when we saw masses of abuse reading one tory m p saying yeah, less politics rash with more football practice. it did not surprise you know, it doesn't surprise me what. what i believe is that those people are in the minority and they'll not normal will continue to get smaller and smaller. actually, i'm, when people talk about pe teacher and you're surprised them all the apologies i'm doing these are doing. the politicians are just like you and i am just that they get people to vote for the politics is a popularity contest in the contest to to who can do the job the best, the politics, the popularity contest. so don't be because you're

a politician or you're in be this great person or that person. you want a popularity contest. that's it. you see some people may take issue with your line in the book when you say you couldn't care less about the political aspirations of black lives matter. and at the same time you quote james baldwin. i mean, bernice king was on this show. a few weeks ago, people can see our interview with her on youtube channel as monte king junior's daughter. and she made the point that politics is critical to emancipating this world of racism. yes. what, what i'm talking about when i talk about barkley's mother and politics actually is not. i don't care about the police because us probation of black life matter because people always try to tie that in to degrade the movement to be agreed. the argument, politicians. how about an important role to play because they make policy without policy change?

nothing. but when people try to target blacklight until a marks is movement under what my new level they are just trying to me extract this futile school remains so that it could be so great that they can find to try and agree what's waiting on. i don't hear about the politics. i travel is 3 words, black lives matter. so don't come to me of a political movement. this is that you want to tear on movement. what was happening in south africa was up i, i wasn't the support, you know, the decided that they were not going to have worked in contact with. so dr. got, it wasn't the politicians, it was the sport in organization. so politics, that's what it always makes. i want to get on to education, which is a huge part of this. we're going to in a 2nd. but as you make the point in the book, surely some white people who do know about the history of racism and imperialism. recognize that if black people get more power, they may start treating whites the way the whites treated people of color. and that

perhaps is what they are fearful up. but again, is there any history of black people doing that to any other areas? there's not a lot of history white people doing, they'll be doing that. so i don't think there's an issue with the behavior and the treatment of judge. any other is and elite education is just as it is in the poorest communities that arguably that downgrade people of color as contribution to world history. you reminders in the book, the wards of the city of london were overseen by a black roman emperor, emperor, to tell us about him, let alone the people who heard baths of david hume's races. jefferson's races judge was a racist who is this roman empire emperor that doesn't occur in anyone's history, books in england. when he was born in africa in libya, and he became

a roman emperor and came to the united kingdom. and while the 1st la con, cleave, he was part of all that he looked at, he rebuild. he, adrian's, was, he was up last month. what they don't key to that is that those are images that allow you to look at a new form, your own opinions, just like the image of jesus christ, the sure image of a white man with blonde here. and i knew then form your opinion. oh, that's what jesus christ looked like. it could never have looked like that. we indoor stand in that part of the word. what is the brain washing? that is so much that we give you an image. you form this impression in your mind. and so you go through like your kids on earth and generation after generation believe in him. he's not shown to you, michael holding. thank you. and why we neil, how he rises out. now, after the break violence and cricketing boy got to me, i played that party, mandela, ending apartheid. but he's this week's violence,

the beginning of the end of a n. c monopoly, neo liberal power. we talked to amanda ellis post about administers, more coming up about 2 of going underground. ah, i when i see black america, i see part of my when i was growing up, like america spoke to me. when, why destroyed you did not. you said black lives matter is a movement, we are importing from america. no, nothing is in we. i lived in a world where life lives mattered. and i was not why i like mission. and i wasn't new from black america. i learned how to speak back to one

aboriginal people are more of them now. the police were at war with statistics. i'm scared that my children are going to grow up in a country. that thing says no racism, but they're more likely to end up in the criminal justice system than their other fellow friends in daycare. me join me every 1st day on the alex simon show and i'll be speaking to guess in the world. the politics sport business. i'm show business, i'll see you then in the moon the welcome back and when we spoke about how sport was used to bring about an end

to apartheid in south africa, well ahead of nelson mandela or international days ago and a donation mainstream media is expressing shock about the uprising in durban this week, should we be shocked or up to years of a and senior liberal economic policy the mass looting entirely to be expected? joining me not for janice is one of the mandela, former ministers, and the founding secretary general of the congress of south african trade unions. jane, i do thank so much for coming on. so as i said, just remind us the importance of sports, boy gods in, in, in freeing your former comrade in arms. mandela the sports boy called west part of a massive campaign to isolate a part aid. so that's and, and particularly in the sports of cricket and rugby, which where, you know, the hopped in life of the after condos in the white community. so the sport spike got hit very direct key, the ordinary white start african and made them understand that the rest of the

world regarded apostate and racism as a crime against humanity. so it was a very powerful instrument in the armory of building solidarity to isolate the policy regime. and so a person like michael holding we, we regard the dearly as a fellow revolutionary supporting the black lives matter. so for me, i'll be what you and your kind, your kind words because it's more controversial these days are given here in mandela is a great mandela was a great to border the palestinians. and you can see the control vesee of a boy, courts of israeli products in solidarity with the citizens. of course, you know, no one's face. and i guess the only have our weaknesses, mandela himself said this, you know, that we make judgments of character and sometimes the people disappoint us. that's why i don't speak about people until day 6 feet under ground. you know, then i guarantee that they have done everything in the life to deserve the praise

they would get. now, you know, all about how so call mainstream media nato nations portrayed nelson mandela was a terrorist all those years. maybe you is a terrorist before you became a minister. what do you make of the reporting of the violence we're seeing in south africa? some people saying it suggests the subjects that you see it has better under apartheid. well, that would be, you know, i mean, the racism as a, you know, it doesn't exist in science, but you know, we want human race, but racism as so as a social construct is a very big reality. i mean, take the debate in, in, in europe today about immigration, and it's all based on racism, you know, take colonization and slavery based on racism. so, i mean, violence is very much been talked about 350 years of colonization and slavery and an exploitative,

brutal system that we're not going to get rid of that in one generation. so while we can condemn it, we did, because up in the ghost, the ation in 1994, led by nelson mandela we rose above our constituencies in the angle of our constituencies and they feared and found the common ground. and that common ground created a safe contain of a constitutional democracy based on one person, one vote in the democratic non racial, non stick to south africa. that was the mandate of the monday lead generation. we cannot blame my bill for the fact that leadership offered him failed to do the work . oh ok. oh, can we? i mean, i spoke to mandela in 9899. he told me he was all for the new liberal model. he was all going for the i m f. you were a minister for public services analysis that were in the men color. government. i

mean, you know, you seem very sad when he was talking to me. do you not see this privatization and washington consensus model that mandela chose as the part for south africa? do you not see echoes of that in the violent pictures we see in durban? today, i take for granted. i mean, i was the minister in his office responsible for the reconstruction and development program, a program to arrive some consultation amongst our people about the transformation of thought africa economically in terms of the delivery in terms of the budget in terms of the state, the agent is not one coherent, socially cohesive. we were many different traditions that came into the a and p. you know, we had a tradition from exile that believe that they were the government the next out. and so there was a deep suspicion of us who were inside the country leading to mass struggle. and then there was a contingent that came out of prison. i live in robin island. so,

you know, in that mesh i must say in 1996, there was a decision which vandella has to accept responsibility for. but he did not decide in which the reconstruction and development program, which was a social consensus of our country around the transformation of our economy. and i'll and our politics. and it racialize ation of this was coped and replaced with a program focusing on market priorities on fiscal discipline and g d. p growth. that's the debate we are having today. so absolutely, i would concur that some of these near liberal policies have its roots in the mandela period. but the failure gunman, corruption, and state capture had nothing to do it monday. i mean, the choice on offer is rama versa. who clearly, i mean obviously there are, there are links now to china and bricks and so on that are getting stronger. but

people say he's doing furthering the privatization campaign. or there is zoom. who seems to me some be accused of being a sort of trump detached air type populist character. you can understand why people like my lemma opposition activists outside the a and c is saying enough is enough. the a and c. i understand that the view that enough is enough and i am taking the same position, but i don't go around lucy and i don't go around spouting demagoguery and inflammatory statements that you know, those that exploit to racial tensions, ethnic tension and raise the specter of tribal and i think we must be absolutely powerful and stand against corruption and no one is above the law and that they, these are separate issues. the issue they capture and the fact that 57000000000 was due to the public treasury. all the people,

including ceo's of big companies like the mackenzie's and the bell park, injures and, and k, p. m, g need to be held responsible as much as a politician. we invite the company, i will say we invite all those companies on the show to reject. and they sure surely do as they reject accusations about covey corruption here. because the size of corruption in the city of london dos and corruption, you have in south africa. does it annoy you sometimes when they talk about that africa is this corrupt country as compared to, i mean, we know about the size of the bailouts after twin the way does it annoy you? of course, of course, and it stinks off the racism, that is so much dna of much of the west that africa is the dark continent. there is a p, look at corruption, is to happens and corruption, one that receives the bribe, which is our predatory leads. and usually

a wisdom company are now even eastern countries, but predominantly wisdom company. if you look at state capture and what's before, there's done the commission today. the companies that are involved in this, a largely western companies that international live that have been come places in breaking corporate governance in undermining our constitution in fastening of billions of dollars into true banks and through various other means to launder money that has been legally stolen from us is it is, i mean, but then why are you not advising that like in the most successful develop, sir nations in the world? arguably it's time now for nature nation corporate assets to be, to become democratically accountable for nationalization. as advocated by mandela before is, is the magical conversion to neoliberalism. you know,

and i think we must make a distinction between i am not today, given my expedius to africa, advocating nationalization of any because it leads to the same problem to treat that has captured the state now is bankrupt. even the rest of the economy. i think we at the crossroads today where you like tony blair, not it's not in economy system that has failed. we need to look at a system in economic system that puts ecology at the center, puts the us at the center of everything we do. and i think the time has come for us to we are post ideology now and i'm very much in favor of what young people are saying. we are tired of the old language. i had of your liberation movement. we tired of your. you cannot make proposals. post ideology, i mean i, you know, we're, we're covering latin america and there's a pink dye. the chinese communist party,

celebrated a 100 years of the superpower of the century. arguably, you part of that car drove old south african revolutionaries who are embracing this watered down version of a futures as ivy i oversee excepting your, your support for environmental measures? no, i'm not. i think we had 2 pints when no one has a solution where we have to sit down in an authentic intergenerational dialogue. we have to sit down at the world and say the science is telling us we at the edge of a precipice. and my concern is not about the mother that she's been through 5. i think she's already taking a 20 to 25000000 years to recover from it. but she's for now a 1000000000 years old. i think the real question is, have we, as humanity, human race and our right to be here? and if you look at every other species today that we kotia are planted trillions of

species, everyone is happy, except we are the most miserable species today. i sort of swamped in our depression and anxiety. i'm not really sure that people stealing stuff, consumer durable is in job and the time arguably. yeah. and act and actually what role given, given your historic role and trade unionism in there, this tension then, between jobs in the way this of african economy is configured mining, obviously, minerals, all these foreign currency earn is going from types to banks here in europe, in their attention, what role is the trade unions in change going to be? well, that's why we need to rethink. what does it mean to be human? i am of the view that there needs to be a universal, you know, income grok given to all people. that basic needs met. we had a client where we entering in new and dust in new technological revolution where even the deepest minds in our country are now becoming making that okay,

well i think time is time is running short on that. it is a situation where we have to rethink everything. i'm just going to finish because in the past few days, the anti apartheid fight and norman levy passed away. i just wonder what you remember of him and his fight to me did resign over what he thought was a and c corruption when he got a post in mandela or administration. well, you know, norman was a very close, thin and accommodate, you know, and i shared many of these misgiving, you know, i stepped off the, any see of the agency and at the time when they crucified nelson mandela for, for speaking out on the chevy issue. i have not been to another in the meeting for more than a decade. for me, i'm not representing a citizen was played at all in the past, and he's prepared to support the authentic intergenerational compensation where i think the future lies in the hands of young people. and we should be encouraging

people by generation to pass the beta not to them. jane, i do. thank you. my pleasure. great to be on your show that there for this show when we back on monday to talk to us about cove it and food. and it was k, bolivian presidential adviser, whether the aerial bombardment of cuba arguably advocated by miami's man. this week is just another sign of us backing for a coup on the island until then keep in touch my social media and don't forget to subscribe to our youtube channel and let us know whether you think the liberalism is the root cause of this week's violence in south africa, she was simply real thing a little slow, letting them go by susan. well, i don't want to come a little to go and see me when you have a sweet quote, you have a meeting in the room,

initial pathetic stamey. i'm going to spell them. i mean, i wish i was going to look at me and wish you to move when you finish, the mental typically became complete illusion actually gripped on on the, on the financial young moody illusion that you lose could put it in. you could shoot to the lower ah, ah, i use

ah, so maybe be the devastation and destruction. a major cleanups underway along with intensive search and rescue efforts off the huge flooding in germany and belgium. we understand more than a 100 people are dead. many more are missing covert lands, the sicilian origin of italy and poverty crisis authorities warned the changing seasons will be even more challenging for local community washington accuse as russia and china of running smear campaigns against western vaccine. but that's the us. it's use more warnings about the side effects of its own injection under.