look really nice and these are those who knew that belong to plenty possibly. initials for this. a peculiar the europe struggles to deal with the off them all the devastating floods that will have at least $170.00 people dead all to germany. and other than that, the glass states of emotion over land, the sicilian regional of italy, poverty crisis, already warned. changing seasons will be even more challenging for local communities and return to russian. and people in south africa for security, for essentially the hundreds of shops looted abroad to go on the round page on the ground up next for us, us aids on conduct. if you want to me some of you k,

it's the record reports coming up in just a few moments time back in one hour. the latest, if you want us again the me the with i'm sure it has the and we're going underground. another thing, the stories, the powerful don't want you to know coming up in the show in a week that fans will racism home against england football as mark as resident. because soccer and gentlemen sancho is politics the route to eradicate entrenched races. and one of the greatest cricketers of all time michael holding tells us about the power of taking the knee in front of our home secretary, who said black lives matter, protest the dreadful and ahead of nelson mandela or international days. this week's

uprising in south africa evidence that enough is enough for the washington, the liberal experiment forged by mandela after his campaign of violence finally brought him to powder and apologize. we talk to one of his comrades, you know, all the small coming up in today's going underground. but 1st, after england lost the euro 20 the final to italy in a week, the british fans brought racism home against star football as what is kneeling means in his gesture, politics by birth. johnson's home secretary, pretty battalion, call the black lives matter protests. dreadful. in politics, the only route out of entrench racism. joining me now from new market in england is one of the greatest crickets of old time, the west indies, michael holding his new best seller. why we neil, how we rise shots racism through the careers. it was a bolt, naomi, a soccer anterior re michael. what not to have you on the, on this program. one of the greatest sports does ever in this country and was a timely book to come out just after the defeat of england, that you're

a 2020 so far as johnson's home secretary, pretty battelle has said, it's gesture politics that people have the right to boot and that black lives matter is dreadful. why do we neil your book school? why we neil? soon if no one knew why it wasn't necessary to kneel before this past week, they should know no gesture of kneeling. i think the world wide, recognize just of supporting black lives matter and kneeling to show people that you would think that there was in justice and human need that to cheat. martin luther king, did it more recently calling cap on? what do i highlighted it? and of course we know what that's happened to him. what those who want to see that it is so called just politics need to talk to call him company and find out from him if he enhanced this korea or she enhances life by taking on the you lost his

job. you never, ever did you mention the cap and in the book you reject. at the outset say white police, killing black people, is an american problem. obviously we had actually we as your child them and as is killed day in brazilian and against tama. apparently, the crown prosecution service refused to prosecute, let alone listen, the other black people, people of color who being killed at the hands of police. this is not an american problem. it is not an american problem that way in the book, i highlighted quite quite a few names from here in the united kingdom. when back into the events on before that, that's been killed by police brutality does not, it is not that big a problem here. and you, as it is in the united states, because there are more guns carried by policemen in the united states, and it is so much easier in united states into killing people. i think that since

george roy had been on the 101 of those so you know, it's a, it's a big problem. you tell me about that, then you were about to go on a sky sports, common dating thing. and, and you heard about what was going on and this presumably made you want to write this book will not read would be on that. i, it, when george slide got killed, i was still home in the caribbean and i hadn't arrived yet. can you get to work? that was guy the motto, fox, you were an even absolutely sure that we would get critique because a cool be and then sky had a meeting, a zoom meeting on to the cricket in stop. and when every input brent, i just joined the staff 1st black woman to represent that cricket. i'm the she was on the board, the george slide situation on black live matter movement on the demonstration. i knocked the ball her experiences here in united kingdom, and she poured out our soil out of my stuff up. she broke down and cried during

that meeting. and the boss of sky, cricket brown henderson decided no, we need to do something about this. we got yes, let this just go more water on the bridge and he called me at home in the care of it and said, we are planning to do. i'll be doing ebony, to talk about the matter to talk about. george lied to talk about black experiences . would you be willing to get in what i said? absolutely. so that is holding video came on both. what after the big yellow showing on skies worth leading up to the start with it as much of course to read and saw this, this to michael and the league. so it was not to me live on sky after show in the video what it was like to talk about that. and of course, i then went into what i had to see about the black plasma movement, unable persecution of black people, and black reese and all that. i didn't intend to write a bulky, not that i actually was more feedback. i got positive feedback. now more people

didn't talk to me and said, you can stop there, you know, people are listening to you, you have to keep going. and usually i so home i decided, okay, let's right. because that wasn't my intention. well, thanks to the rain then. i mean, you are part of the, one of the greatest sporting teams of all all time and i suppose but i mean to remind people about what was supposed to be one of the greatest overs in cricketing history. when you bold jeffrey boycott. i mean, didn't it make you want to write when you had jeffrey boy, god say, if he's been black to help me become a night to the realm. i mean, you know why they've always thought of being some of them. the dfcs on some, you know, and so that is, that will meeting for me to make any changes to my life or make any changes to what they intend to do. now racism, of course, as you make clear in the book it's, it's much more complicated than it is in our tabloid newspapers. when

you talk to the same bolt, the fastest man on earth, he says it was, class is not racism that hit him in jamaica. i mean, surely isn't that the people of color with money are treated better than people of color without money? maybe, except for balls. yeah, but that is the clark isn't that you see in board was on a boat and i experienced the same thing when i was a young man growing up in jamaica. i didn't really experience racism. it's difficult to experience racism in a country with that is predominate, the black person you experience is now calling to that is if you're a person that the last predominant, the white, he moved into this neighborhood of doctors, lawyers, people who don't very well are university and i've read korea than i bought, whole homes in this neighborhood. and because he hadn't done all that despite the

fact that he could live amongst them, what my book is, i've already started. why it has been perfect to be a good wife for a couple. and they wanted to have it exactly in that it has created amongst people and i'm not the stock number p blockquote. i will people because not on the block, the gloves over because white people are not that it can give me a racist against the white person because this isn't level one risk feeling superior. why another one could make the argument that taking the knee is hardly any progress. i mean, you talk about jesse owens against hitler, but you also mention, mandela, you mentioned louis farrakhan. you mentioned mohammed ali's position to the vietnam war is taking any enough. mandela obviously took up arms as a case of civil disobedience. i mean, you talk about even the person that inspired you. a man go even blake and jamaica, jumping into a white suddenly pool. are these big gestures in the world of pretty patel's

gesture politics than just taking the ne you will see in the afternoon is not just the beginning and end of the got it. you can do that along with other things. you don't need that option. know, have to follow what, what the need does is keep the 4 course on the problem. the football team taken in the m re game, people who are talking about that it keeps the forward it to stop doing the thing i taught whole. do you know that the walk us is still on the problem? whole do use for people to keep on thinking that they need to do something. if everything disappears out of sight, whole, you will know that anything is going on. as i say, bar johnson's secretary says people have a right to bu, people have the right to do. i mean, yeah, you cite the oxford university study saying 18 percent believe some races are less intelligent? did it not surprise you after the euro?

2020 final. when we saw graffiti dogged on their mark as rash with work in manchester, when we saw masses of abuse reading, one tory m p saying yeah, less politics rash with a bit more football practice. it did not surprise you know, it doesn't surprise me. but what i believe is that those people are in the minority under the normal will continue to get smaller and smaller. actually, i'm, when people talk about pe teacher and you're surprised about apologies and doing this are doing. the politicians are just like you and i am just that they get people to vote for the politics is a popularity contest is not a contest to tool who can do the job the best, the politics, the popularity contest. so don't really because you're a politician or you're in be this great person or that person. you want a popularity contest. that's it. you see some people may take issue with your line in the book when you say you couldn't care less about the political aspirations of black lives matter. and at the same time you quote james baldwin,

having bernice king was on this show a few weeks ago. people can see our interview with her on our youtube channel as much into the king junior's daughter. and she made the point that politics is critical to emancipating this world of racism. yes, but what i'm talking about when i talk about barkley's mother and politics actually is not. i don't care what to put in because us probations of black lives matter because people always try to tie that in to degrade the movement to degree. the argument. politicians have an important role to play because they make policy without a policy change, nothing machines. but when people try to cobb the blacklight, martha and marks is movement on what my new level. yeah, i'm just trying to make sure is futile. school remains so that pooler and it could piece of thread that they can find to try and agreed what's going on. i don't care

about the politics. i travel is 3 words, black lives matter. so don't come to me about political movement. this is that you want to hear a movement. what was happening in south africa when i was working on the agenda, say that they were not going to have worked in contact with. so dr. got it wasn't the politicians, it was the sport, the knob, and the so politics, dance, where did always meet. i want to get on to education, which is a huge part of this. we're going to in a 2nd. but as you make the point in the book, surely some white people who do know about the history of racism and imperialism, recognize that if black people get more power, they may start treating whites the way the way it's treated people of color. and that perhaps is what they are fearful up. but again, is there any history of black people doing that to any other areas?

there's, are a lot of history white people doing, they'll be doing that. so i don't think they should use the earth behavior on the treatment of judge and the other is, and it's a elite education is just as it is in the poorest communities that arguably that downgrade people of color as contribution to world history. you reminders in the book, the walls of the city of london were overseen by a black roman emperor, emperor, to tell us about him let alone the hood perhaps, the david hume's races. jefferson's a racist judge was a racist who is this roman empire emperor? that doesn't occur in anyone's history, books in england, when he was born in africa in libya and he became a roman emperor and came to the united kingdom and myself. while the 1st that con cleared, he was part of all that. he looked at he rebuild. he, adrian's,

was, he was up last month. what they don't key to that is block. those are images that allow you to look at a new form, your own opinions, just like the image of jesus christ, the image of a white man with blonde hair and blue eyes. and you then form your opinion. oh, that's what jesus christ looked like. he could never have know that we endorsed and in that part of the word, what is the brain washing? that is so much they'll be give you an image, you form this impression in your mind. and so you go through like your decades on her and generation after generation. believe this image that is showing you michael holding. thank you. and why we neil, how he rises out. now, after the break violence and cricketing boy got to me, i played their part. remember ending apologize, but he's this week's violence, the beginning of the end of a n. c monopoly, neo liberal power. we talked to one of mandela post about administers all of them all coming up in part 2 of going undergrad.

rather driven by shaped by those in me there's things we dare to ask me ah, welcome back. and when we spoke about how sport was used to bring about an end to a part, i didn't have well ahead of nelson mandela international days ago, and a donation mainstream media is expressing shock about the uprising in durban this

week. should we be shocked or up to years of a and senior liberal economic policy, the mass looting entirely to be expected? joining me now for janice is one of mandela, former ministers, and the founding secretary general of the congress of south african trade unions. jane i do. thanks so much for coming on. so as i said, just remind us the importance of sports boy gods in, in, in freeing your former comrade in arms. mandela, the sports boycott was part of a massive campaign to isolate a part aid. so the africa and particularly in the sports of cricket and rugby, which where, you know, the hopped in life of the after condos in the white community. so the sport spike got hit very direct key, the ordinary white start african and made them understand that the rest of the world regarded apostate and racism as a crime against humanity. so it was a very powerful instrument in the armory of building solidarity to isolate the

policy regime. and so a person like michael holding we, we regard the dearly as a fellow revolutionary supporting the black lives matter. so from what you know, your kind, your kind words because more controversial these days are given here in mandela is a great mandela was a great support or the palestinians. and you can see the control of a boy, courts of israeli products in solidarity with the citizens. of course, you know, no one's face. and i guess the only have our weaknesses, mandela himself said this, you know, that we make judgments of character and sometimes the people disappoint us. that's why i don't speak about people until day 6 feet on the ground. you know, then i guarantee that they have done everything in the life to deserve the praise they would get. now, you know, all about how so call mainstream media in a donations portray belgium handler is a terrorist all those years. maybe you is

a terrorist before you became a minister. what do you make of the reporting of the violence we're seeing in south africa? some people saying it suggests the subjects that you see. it was better under apartheid. well, that would be, you know, i mean the racism, as you know, it doesn't exist in science, but you know, we want human race, but racism as social as a social construct is a very big reality. i mean, take the debate in, in, in europe today about immigration, and it's all based on racism, you know, take colonization and slavery based on racism. so, i mean, violence is very much been talked about 350 years of colonization and slavery and an exploitative, brutal system of a part that we're not going to get rid of that in one generation. so while we can condemn it, we did because up and to go see ation. in 1994. led by nelson

mandela we rose above our constituencies in the angle of our constituencies and they feared and found the common ground. and that common ground created a safe contain of a constitutional democracy based on one person, one vote in the democratic non racial, non stick to start africa. that was the mandate of the monday lead generation. we cannot blame mandela for the fact that the leadership offered him failed to do the work. oh ok. oh, can we? i mean, i spoke to my dealer in 9899. he told me he was all 4 than the liberal model. he was all going for the i m f. you were a minister for public services analysis that were in the mantel or government. i mean, you know, the very sad when he was talking to me. do you not see this privatization and washington consensus model that mandela chose as the part for south africa?

do you not see echoes of that in the violent pictures we see in durban? today, i take for granted. i mean, i was the minister in his office responsible for the reconstruction and development program, a program to arrive some consultation amongst our people about the transformation of thought africa economically in terms of the delivery in terms of the budget in terms of the state, the agency is not one coherent, socially cohesive. we were many different traditions that came into the amc. you know, we had a tradition from exile that believe that they were the government in exile. and so there was a deep suspicion of us who were inside the country leading to my struggle. and then there was a contingent that came out of prison and like in robin island. so, you know, in that mesh i must say in 1996, there was a decision which vandella has to accept responsibility for. but he did not decide in which that reconstruction and development program, which was

a social consensus of our country around the transformation of our economy. and i'll, i'll politics. and d racialize ation of this was coast and replaced was a program focusing on market priorities on fiscal discipline and g d. p growth. that's the debate we're having today. so absolutely. i would concur that some of these near liberal policies have its roots in the mandela period, but the failure gunman, corruption, and state capture had nothing to do it monday. i mean, the choice on offer is rama versa. who clearly, i mean obviously there are, there are links now to china and bricks and so on that are getting stronger. but people say he's, he's furthering the privatization campaign. or there is zoom. who seems to me some be accused of being a sort of trump detached air type populist character. you can understand why people

like my lemma opposition. activists outside the amc is saying enough is enough. the a and c. i understand that the view that enough is enough and i'm taking the same position, but i don't go around lucy and i don't go around spouting demagoguery and inflammatory statements that you know, those that exploit to racial tensions, ethnic tension and raise the specter of tribal and i think we must be absolutely powerful and stand against corruption and no one is above the law that they these are separate issues. the issue they capture and the fact that 57000000000 was looted out of public treasury. all the people, including ceo, is a big companies like the mackenzie's and the bel cottages, and the in the k p. m. g need to be held responsible as much as

a politician. we invite the company, i will say we invite all those companies on the show to reject, and they should have a surely do as they reject accusations about covey. the corruption here because the size of corruption in the city of london dwarfs and corruption you have in south africa. does it annoy you? sometimes when they talk about africa is this corrupt country as compared to, i mean, we know about the size of the bailouts after twin the way does it annoy you? of course, of course, and it stinks off the racism. that is so much dna of much of the width that africa is the dark continent. there is a p, look at corruption, is 2 hands in corruption, one that receives the bribe, which is our predatory leads, and usually a with didn't company. or now you've been used to that pre dominantly with the company. if you look at state capture, what's before the under commission today, the companies that are involved in this,

a largely western companies at an international level that have been come places in breaking corporate governance in undermining our constitution in fastening or billions of dollars into true banks. and through various other means to launder money that has been legally stolen from us. is it is, i mean, but then why are you not advising that like in the most successful, developed nations in the world? give me it's time now for nature nation corporate assets to be, to become democratically accountable for nationalization, as advocated by mandela before is, is the magical conversion to neoliberalism. you know, and i think we must make the distinction between i am not today given my expedius and that africa advocating nationalization of any because it leads to the same

problem. the tree read that is captured, the state now is bankrupt. even the rest of the economy. i think we at the crossroads today where you like tony blair not is not in economy system that has failed. we need to look at a system in economic system that puts ecology at the center, puts the at the center of everything we do. and i think the time has come for us to . we have post ideology now and i'm very much in favor of what young people are saying. we are tired of the old language. i had of your liberation movement. we tired of your economic proposals. i mean, the host ideology, i mean, you know, where we're covering latin america and there's a pink dye. the chinese communist party, celebrated a 100 years of the superpower of the century. arguably, are you part of that condra of old south africa, revolutionaries who are embracing this watered down version

of a futures as ivy i always see excepting your, your support for environmental measures? no, i'm not. i think we had 2 pints when no one has a solution where we have to sit down in an authentic intergenerational dialogue. we have to sit down as the world and say the science is telling us we at the edge of a precipice. and my concern is not about the bad that she's been through 5. i think she's already taken a 20 to 25000000 years to recover from it. but she's for an hour 1000000000 years old. i think the real question is, have we, as humanity, the human race and our right to be here? and if you look at every other species today that we kotia our planet, the trillions of everyone is happy except we are the most miserable species today. i sort of swamped in our depression and anxiety. i'm not really sure that the people stealing stuff,

consumer durable in job and the time arguably. yeah. and act and actually what role given, given your historic role and trade unionism in there? this tension then, between jobs, in the way the south african economy is configured mining, obviously, minerals, all these foreign currency earn is going from types to banks here in europe in their attention. what role is the trade unions in change going to be? well, that's why we need to rethink. what does it mean to be human? i am of the view that they need to be a universal. you know, income grad, you've been told people that basic needs are met. we had a client where we entering a new in dust in new technological revolution where even the deepest minds in our country are now becoming they cannot. okay. i think time is time is running short on that. it is a situation where we have to rethink everything. i'm just going to finish because in the past few days, the anti apartheid fight norman levy passed away. i just wonder what you remember

of him and his fight me did resign over what he thought was a and see corruption when he got a post in mandela or administration. well, you know, norman was a very close friend and accommodate, you know, and i shared many of these misgiving, you know, i stepped off the, any see of the agency and at the time when they crucified nelson mandela for, for speaking out on the chevy issue. i have not been to another in the meeting for more than a decade. for me, i'm not representing a citizen. was played it over the past and he's prepared to support the authentic intergenerational compensation where i think the future lies in the hands of young people. and we should be encouraging people by generation to pass the beta not to them. jane, i do. thank you. a pleasure to be on your show for this show when we back on monday to talk to us about coven and food, and to ask a bolivian presidential advisor,

whether the aerial bombardment of cuba arguably advocated by miami's man. this week is just another sign of us backing for a cool on the island until then keep in touch my social media and don't forget to describe, do i use your channel? let us know when the, using the liberalism is the root cause of this week's violence in south africa. ah, ah me ah ah ah.