look around, a virus pandemic. listen, what can we help in today's going underground? but 1st, this week, so the mainstream media so called collectively wring their hands about private surveillance companies of revelations about the alleged widespread reach of the so called pegasus spyware. developed by israeli surveillance from n s o group. the delayed reaction from the media could arguably be linked to the evenings, ation of where helix found a julian assigned to, according to the u. n. a still being tortured in h. m. p. bell marsh in london. but is this the latest example of what we're healing, korean exposing, were private surveillance for a decade. joining me now from reykjavik in iceland is ricky leeks, editor in chief christian robinson. christian, thanks so much for coming on. i'll get to whether i should throw my phone away in a 2nd and to your jail, co founder julian assange in a moment. but what do you make of all these journalists suddenly talking about and a so group, when, when you, when you were doing this, i don't know a decade ago, was it? yeah, i mean we did to point out the seriousness of this business to 10 years or more.

but i mean, i'm not going to say, i'm important story and now i mean they do have evidence of wrongdoing. however, i mean, for those who have been following the industry for years and years and know that actually on december 1st, 2011, we can publish it internal documents, exposing the incredible scope for these privatized spike companies and the servers they were offering to this particular jeans and targeting activities and political opponents and i'm general. so at that time, actually if you go to the website website, we can resort or you can reflect on what must be described. there was exactly the same things that we have come to the surface and getting attention in

2011. when the duty i'm assigned was, was a long seen this publication. another press conference at city university in that story got very little fraction that trivia. and i was very surprised at the time because it was such a strong revelation. strong story, but it has taken 10 years now to maybe reach pollution. maybe people are now ready to upset the fact that the us by tools can be carrying one. but it this commercial surprise to, to us, we can do that, chris, and i better just ask you, what should we do? you presume? here and a person of interest to a certain government. so i know there's in spain about the surveillance by ca, linked companies of jeffrey robinson. qsc talking to julian sons, you have a phone there. how frightened you?

i mean, edward snowden, who were you wicked things, help to get to safety and moscow said, take the same cut out when you tell what when you want total privacy. i mean, is that what we're supposed to do? you have to always expect that your, your phone has been meddled and i have been it's very difficult to detect. think the coordinate people. it's not that easy to see. actually years ago, 11 expert in the field told me, well, i mean, the only symbol that you can sort of read into your phone has been tampered with is the fact that the battery will die and go down very quick. that means that somebody is basically using a remote to your, your, your, your own device. so, spying to when i was doing regular reporting, remember hearing about how the drug dealers where operating with the old mobile phones when they were meeting. because they were afraid of being under surveillance

by police, they will put their phones into the freezer that had the discussion. so you should simply always assume that this is basically taking away your privacy and security, or nobody is the cure. in today's world, we just live in that environment. now s o group has given us the statement. they've been talking about this. and they say, and it's a group, is a life on a life saving mission. and the company will faithfully execute this mission. undeterred, despite any and all continued attempts to discredited on false grounds, that's what the israeli company is saying. they used to break a p t. affiliate sex drug trafficking rings. nothing to do with attacking new york times journalists and journalists from you know, reuters in the economist,

lifesaving mission them whose lives others in. ready the painters that are abusing these technology to go out of their political opponents. so do not live in some distance activities. we have no prob, i mean, roof about this and, and i should also say pension funds apparently here in britain invest in n s. so, so does that mean in capitalist countries where investing, i mean we're paying our taxes, you see that go into the military industrial complex, and also private pension funds are investing in a so group, i mean i, we all paying for our own we are, it's just giving that must understand there's only one company of many. i mean, 10 years ago we pointed out this was a multi 1000000000 dollar industry. we were calling out the pointing out the fact that this had to be regulated just the weapons industry. but it,

nobody listens. so it is unregulated and can easily be weaponized or we are calling this company, let's call it pull. what it really is. i mean, these are intelligence services. and you know, i intend to say that we should call them non state hostile intelligence services, and the hostility is against the individuals against privacy and against the fund amendments of our democracy, democratic society. yeah, i mean, they say they vet their client's love, but there's another way of approaching this story. the 50000 phone numbers which and so says is the equivalent of opening the white pages and choosing these numbers randomly. it is that a lot of these media groups, they be accused of being involved in the government lies that get nato nations into wars. we leaks not appealing for the very information that may have been the may have been got through. and so peggy, spyware,

so that we can find out the links between the journalist and so go mainstream media and the military industrial complex. the persuade, their populations into wars that killed wound or displaced tens of millions of people. i'm not going to encourage buying on journalists and all. i think it's disgusting practice. but it has been going on for quite a long time. you pointed out to the beginning that lawyers, in spite are gone by a private contractor. so could security company out of spain in the country, an embassy, when julian massage was there. but on top of that, there was a lot of journalists that came to visit to live. we have several journals with spider by this company and including because they had to leave their phones with this company for certainly they were used as infiltrated mist,

malware and information was expected from that case because he's in spain. obviously, we don't encourage buying on this either. but you know that the u. k. god, you and your old media partner doesn't appear to be giving much prominence to a key witness in the trial here in london. one of the key witnesses for the united states government admitting he was lying about all his allegations. why do you think the guardian is not interested in that report or any of the publications that are listed in this pegasus spyware report? i haven't seen the reuters news flash that the most famous journalist in the world, the key witness against him as admitted his line. well, it as little traction so far. i know that, you know, some of the major mainstream needed to doing without working on stories based just from the, the, the invoice of journalists where she broke that story. so let's get a little bit of time. it's a complicated story, but i mean, the essence of it is we, we kind of get time, can we?

because there's a heat wave here in london. i don't know what the temperatures are in bell marsh. i don't know what the covert situation is in bell much the united nation, special rogers repeatedly been on this program and the british start is being involved in torture. there is no time is if you're right, it must be free to mediately that it is absurd that he is sitting in the prison after the victory in court. and generally for it. it's just absolutely absurd that he would be sent back to the prison, which is creating the condition which was underlying the decision by the judge to actually been my explanation. and talking about procedure, i mean, i'm trying to point out, i mean, where on earth somebody sit in a jail for 6 months plus a wiley high court is coming to the decision whether to allow an appeal or not 6 months and a half a year. that's, that's absurd. it's

a human rights violation that we would be condemning and any other country. a new revelation of blowing such a hole in the narrative by the americans in the entire it's cited in the on numerous occasions in the judge rates are ruling on january 4th. which means basically that the united states government was misleading a u. k. court. that's very syringe. ok, well the news here in britain is notes about that. in fact, the world global mainstream news had time to talk about jeff bezos going to space. that's a much more important story than the daughter of the most famous publisher in the world. maybe amazon quick to shut down a w s. their web serve as a system for. and so the israeli beggars this system after having to see the national, started talking about all this spyware. great success, then,

no problem. i know that we have weeks of often talked about amazon's close links to the intelligence services. i mean, that's so that's so that should not be the end of it. i mean, there must be an outcry in the, in the public. and as we've said for 10 years, and i was doing the trans pointed out 10 years ago, i mean, the nice it needs to be a regulation of street. ok, i'm sure amazon, it's just an online bookshop. obviously, i just, finally, i mean, you know, time and time again, those defending wiki leaks have talked about the us constitution about norms, international norms. the secretary pretty battelle year who she was just grace previously actually for di as to israel. she has got a consultation baby here, the home office on the official secrets act that some say make, makes leaks criminal. i mean we helix has always said, look, we're doing what journalists are supposed to do, you know, watergate kind of things. what do you make of the possibility that governments may

say, i know there's a simple way to avoid the kind of legal problems that they're having to try and imprison, assigns for 175 years, make the kind of thing, the wiki leeks do illegal, per se, april, all right, well let me that is exactly what the is the essence of the incitement against julian in spain, cp criminalizing journalists, and what should be of interest to people in britain is back. during the tradition hearing, we saw an attempt to read the fine or, or defined the official secrets in the same manner. so as to just like sample is being shut because it has to be a jewel criminality. it has before you last. but what is the alleged indictment has to be a crime in the u. k. so basically what, what the, what was merging out of the extradition process was

a redefinition of the journalist alignment. and basically it's yes for publishing and classified information coming from a lee is a crime. so that's cream, the legend journalism. by remote there say in the question, robertson, thank you. and as i said in a so group has said in a statement to us that there is no link between the 50000 numbers do and as a group of pegasus and their technology was not associated in any way with the murder. would you mark shoji and that full statement can be found online or below this video? if you're watching on youtube after the break, forget the cayman islands or panama co founder, the tax justice network tells us why the u. k. in the u. s. top the leader board for the best off shore attack savings in the world. all this and coming up in part 2 of going on the ground,

the eastern half of the united states were going to have billions, if not trillions of periodical cicada is interacting with tens of millions of human

beings in their backyard. oh, my god. obviously some of the cicadas do not have very high tolerance for alcohol because they are already passing out are 6 minutes to 400. i mean that's very satisfying. and the welcome back. while increasing numbers have been finding it difficult to feed themselves in the u. k. u. s. during the global corona virus pandemic,

some of the in raking in the cache is here in britain, 130000. been killed by coven. how? so joining me that from cambridge here is the co founder of the tax justice network contacts research u. k. director professor richard murphy. thanks so much richard for coming on. so we know that there was a scandal over the weekend about prime minister bars. johnson exempting himself from the lation. we've got the health secretary, obviously with co bid, and we got a lot of stuff at the moment about the former prime minister david cameron's lobbying allegations. how corrupt has the johnson governments response to corona virus? been in your estimation until this government came along. i had never dad call a u. k. government corrupt i was busy and that was a pretty i'm well, i think today because it was got a, a pretty risky with regard to the life. of course, i, frankly, i don't think anyone has any concern about quoting this government crop now, because the evidence is over whelming, this government is pursuing its business in

a fashion that is corrupted, favoring its own ministers. on some occasions with contracts, mat hancock got a contract from his own department from which he benefit something which by any reasonable definition of corruption might be involved in anti corruption campaign. in some way, for 2 decades, anyone would say is unacceptable. we see for the ministers, low be in ways apparently would be unacceptable in many countries, we see bar as johnson frankly distorting. the truth telling lies slowly without apparently any concern knowing that he will be found out and appear to be indifferent to the consequences. so this is the government that is, in my opinion, absolutely rotten to the call that have absolutely no shred of credibility and which is bluntly pursuing policies now, which show that it is completely indifferent to the well being of the people that the u. k. they are playing games with people in this country, putting their lives at risk, putting the lives of young people in particular risk that my children,

my late teens and 20 children at risk because they're not really vaccinated because it wants to do something which is often the reckless in terms of the kind of policy i, i find it hard to contain my anger with regard to this government because i think a reasonable person should be angry with this. government was, you know, bars trans denies, not only the dominic cummings is top advisors allegations disgraced former health secretary mat hancock after allegations about his mistress and being denies all wrong doing as does the former prime minister on the former prime minister. we've got to, we went to the treasury committee saying he did absolutely nothing wrong sending messages to ministers after leaving the house of parliament, it seems on behalf of greenfield capital, which made loans of 350000000 to liberty steel which employs $3000.00 workers. i mean, why would the treasury committee itself say, you know, cameron is innocent?

is a, this isn't corruption. he's been cleared. well, i bank with the treasury committee. why was trying to do this? well, a has a set the parking georgie, frankly, to our parliament. all parliamentarians know that there is nothing they can do to challenge the government with the apc for georgie. however, elected by a minority of people in the new pay, we must always remember that this is the consequence of having a 1st call, the post electro system, which is to be unfit for purpose. we give a government like this one, a massive majority, which led to exonerate itself and blame for what it's done. exonerate previous 5 minutes. this the blame for what they don't applies the official whitewash to the action, but which action is basically representing a minority of people in minority. but as you know, culture of ours, johnson more popular than ever. and that's after we heard that the sleeves watch

dog is going to have one of his old bullying. didn't friends on the bullying? didn't club famous for? well, the allegations are they used to burn 50 pound notes in front of the homeless people . what was your reaction to that, sir? as to grand chair of the committee, the savage in public life has its pathetic and inappropriate is, i mean, what else can i say specific? an inappropriate would, would appointing a chump a person who has less be honest, being a member of an organization which clearly works on the basis of the bias within society. the bullying thing club was set up to celebrate the privilege, and frankly, the abuse that privilege provide the to deliver now its apparent being appointed to look at sleep in society. i do not think that is a clear and objective appointment to name how she lives. i would think was fair and appropriate, so i will use those measure. it was if i can to describe this appointment, but it is clearly not appropriate. and this is the whole thing that we're saying

within the capture of the processes of government by ok. a party, if you still the most popular in the u. k, which does not reflect the majority interest. now my suggestion is that we can see significant change in popularity. the concert tonight in the u. k is never going to probably enjoy support of less than 30 percent of the electorate. that just seems to be it's hollow core support and i would never get to majority and comment. once we see the current kind of a crisis develop and you've got to read the sensible epidemiologist. so an existence in the u. k. the people on independence age for example, look at their forecasts and caveat full call. so i'm used to looking for costs and statistical data, and i know that a full cost is not a certainty, but look at all the range forecasts. and what we're seeing is that we're going to be hundreds of thousands of people getting it every day. we get significant rise in hospitalization, we all go to see

a lot of people die over the course of the rest of this year. almost certainly within weeks we are going to see the country back in lot that and again, because that is the only way we will. i mean, you know, you're not epidemiologist, but apparently that is good for the economy. but my point is that once all of those things, once these reverses happen, once johnson is found out from the most cool, absolute promise you may be, it's over locked down. let's finish. we've got freedom. i think we're going to see a significant change this popular actually, every government comes to the point where it's loc chrome. okay, all right, well we'll see because some people are going to say that actually stano who hasn't really opposed this government to time and time again that the opposition for international views and actually between storm and johnson, they might have a majority even on 1st post the post, what might i mean? but let's come to stone. i mean, i'm pretty cool. it's donna, i don't see why i shouldn't be like many. i really would like to know what the lead to the opposition is doing because he doesn't appear to be opposing the government

to the fact. it will be sure that he might like to read the job title. it is lead of the opposition, which require to be actually stand up. and now part johnson likes to claim that that's unpacked, realty, to oppose the government. but actually, when this government is clearly failing, thomas should be offering. it'll tell that it's offering alternatives to go to this core issue a candid offering at all times the vision of the society that we want in the u. k. one way or a decent public services where they're properly funded, where station is fair and when, for example, at this very moment there's discussion on social care, how to fund care for the elderly in the u. k. and the proposal that we're hearing from the government is that this may well be an extra tax on those who are chorused in the economy. and those who are youngest in fighting as this government so often does pensions between the have the elderly and large, as i have said, that you can call me and i have not the young and in fighting picture between the rich and the pool. we should at this very moment be actually imposing taxes on wealth in the u. k. obviously, i mean,

i'm sure those in the lead to watching this will say jeremy corbin did off of that and it was rejected at the ballot box. but that's go to our international view. as you can see that there was an election. the international view is especially the rich ones watching. why do you think britain is one of the greatest tax havens in the world? now, that's something to be proud of. surely. i've written 2 books on tax havens, and i've also this opinion that britain is now one of the biggest tax savings in the world. and i will give you the explanation in a few numbers. there are 4700000000 companies in the u. k. we can't explain why a population size need so many companies, the tax authorities only off the tax returns from too many of those companies and half of the the rest say we are not trading. please do not trouble us by asking for a tax return. and then the u. k, we say, yeah, that's all right, we won't ask you for information of the ones that do submitted termination. a significant number say they have no profits and the number of investigations is

tiny. so if you want to set up a company somewhere, which is not going to make displeasure, come to the u. k. pay 15 pounds for your company. signed no physical documents to do so, provide no proof of identity, which you would have to do. so in any the recognized fact based in the well form your company that trade for a while and then get rid of it. and literally the company's house in the u. k. will get rid of your company on payment of 10 pounds of declaration that is never traded, whether that is true or not. so this is the place which provides the greatest opportunity for tax cheats in the well. now we should be clear saying that that the power will not, i don't understand why we want to undermine our own economy by providing the opportunity to tax cheats to thrive within it. to provide the people of many other countries, what the chief taxes in their own country is the opportunity to do so. but frankly, it is easier for the company. it is easy to t t taxes if that's your goal using

a u. k. healthy. now that a company, a jersey, the ottoman came in british regina is almost whatever you like tonight. ok, this isn't an advert. for instance, for the rich i was just thinking. but i mean, could even co, it vaccine companies were doing there apparently is going to switzerland in delaware. we were presenting it as a britain as a new delaware, but install this joe biden, after all his going for this global corporate tax rate. sure, you are celebrating that agenda yellen announcing the global minimum corporation tax, or will it just encourage companies to go to countries that don't have it? i do celebrate this deal. if you perfect, know it better than anything i could imagine 7 months ago when you might remember, we had a president trumped in the white house. this was going to be impossible at that time. now we're talking about the possibility of actually having a us lead. but international coalition of a $130.00 nation states,

agreeing to set up a minimum global tax rate that 50 percent. now, they're all cap. yes. caveat thought the applies to some very large companies. it is going to buy large pay the additional taxes to countries like the usa and the u . k. and not to the developed countries of the world that may well need that money more than you can. the usa do right now take the time when they are under stress as well, and measures in this be able to tackle the tech companies look to be pretty how hot it is better than no deal in terms of moral leadership biking is providing some here. so i've got to congratulate him on that. i've got to say that this is a step in the right direction, that are big flaws. one of the very close in this is that it is dependent upon the quality of the accounting information provided by these companies. and i am

a professional child accountant amongst the various roles i play. and i am well aware of the game that my profession plays and the open unities that they take to manipulate numbers to suit their purposes, shall i, would you like that? and this could be a game that she's now going to be played, that companies will be restating and reorienting, which they provide their accounts to try to avoid the tax bills that they should be . i'm worried about that there is still campaigning to do. the door is not closed on this deal as yet, so that could be reform. i'm certainly gotta be putting quite a lot of effort and seeing whether we can improve it between now and october, when the opportunity closes. reservation you have that's it for the show will be back on saturday to yesterday. since for us, johnson became the prime minister the u. k. following the resignation, theresa may the 2nd consecutive resignation of a prime minister in the past 5 years after she failed to deliver breakfast and bill and keep it as social media. and let us know if you think that needs to be a stronger crack down on tax havens. ah

ah ah. ready ready you watch cancelli class person. i mean, often the saw the blue book truly. i don't want the because it's always more you need to. he's going to repeat usually through which and practice and gone. yeah. because really new go from the moment that she's in, the nice thing is good

luck on the not a monumental chopsticks. i'm not going talk good. the worst flooding in china rim 1000 years. it's called deaths, white town transport, infrastructure brief dams, and sparked a huge blast. and then i'll minium plans, and the situation is said to be getting worse. the all encompassing reaches 5 phones, french president, ammonia, macro mode, as a series of investigations after report that he and the senior team were potentially snoops on, implies rarely developed spyware. and also coming up please nobody suggestion is unchecked information on the way.