oh, the me welcome to the alex, i mean, sure, well, we examine the consequences of borders. johnson's freedom day, this monday when may remain in cooper district since were lifted. although this just applies to england, scotland, northern ireland and their wheels are falling westminster and their relaxation of many of this to show distinctions designed to prevent sprays of the virus. this summer my to the kids may not think of if the pens then it was over with a wave of major sporting events. at 1st, these were trial events carefully managed with limited crites, but in quick succession england to stage the european football tournament windows in the open gulf on the british country with the virtual 4 houses. unfortunately,

these last gatherings have coincided with a resurgent virus with highly infectious agents, leading towards record inspection rates, public confidence, and the government's message of removing controls has been shaken by the revelation last weekend. the vaccine protect to tell fick to side to job. it was himself infected, while prime minister johnson was reported to cancel the victory over the vidas address on monday. with benson government concern over the search in new corbett cases. freedom monday was in state march by regular visa night clubs and river boots and further claims from his change. prime ministerial adviser to him and cummings that johnson had to pause previous controls because only the over eighty's were dying. in addition, the prime minister and chancellor should have been pinned by their own apps to self isolate as close contact of the hill. 60, however far the control oversee, followed when instead they said they could take advantage of

a pilot to daily test and scheme for essential workers. a rapid you turn, followed in face of the wrath of the estimated half a 1000000 people who are self isolating at present on today, shall we turn to new zealand. talk to him only just on public health professor michael baker for an international view. how does the county which is successfully pursued a corporate elimination strategy regarding the approach of the u. k. government? then dr. bought it from connie of x to university, expresses the fears of many u. k. experts about the risks and dangers of the u. k. government policy, new zealand, just one of the success stories of the pandemic around the same size of scotland. it's had 2800 confirmed cases of cobit, i'm 26 fatalities. scott lindsey, in fact me to similar to the other countries of the u. k. has talked more than 325000 cases and over 10000 deaths. professor michael

baker is one of the key architects of the new zealand elimination strategy. professor michael baker, you are speaking from wellington new zealand, a country which has pursued the successful elimination of strategy at least up until now. you've had 2400 cases of coven and 26 deaths. from that vantage point? how do you to got bought us johnson's freedom day? well, it seems irresponsible and quite dangerous. this is policy response to the cupboard, particularly the more features, doubtful variant. and it doesn't seem that you have the conditions for me up in the present. but should we have faith and the seen them in the u. k. has one of the highest vaccinated percentages of the population in the entire world? shouldn't we just put her faith in the vaccine to,

to believe that that will be enough to suppress the virus? well, it seems that prevention and serious disease, not quite so preventing transmission. the trouble is that you, you only have, i think about 55 percent of the population at this point, and that's clearly not enough. so the thing that really amazes us is why the u. k is not waiting until it's scott white or high coverage with respect seen in particular. you could back down to 12 year olds, possibly even younger age groups in the future. and that's the parts being taken across europe in north america. and tiffany, the approach and you seal, and i mean we're rolling up at sea now and we've got approval to 12 years of age. and we wouldn't think of relaxing our god until we had very high coverage down to those young age groups present. because looking at the form of his guidance for you

k visitors to new zealand and they, they want people to beware of for changing climatic conditions and also the possibility of terrorism. and what would be you're wanting to keep us to the united kingdom of the present? why i think that has to be fully vaccinated. because otherwise the high shots going to get the situation. will new zealand bad. you came visitors under cover circumstances and you'd have been, well we have a system that tries to be quite even handed. we do obviously allow people to come and buy quantity. and we have free travel from astray and cook islands. occasionally that is limited from different parts. this is going to outbreaks, but it's been going for 2 months is working well in general. but for other countries, we look at the proportion of people, the risks they will be infected when they arrive here. and at the moment we've had,

we basically turned down the 10 was, would use a numbers of allows travel from countries that have out of control. and that has been india, pakistan and happy new guinea and part of south america. the u. k. was an position before christmas, but since in it appeared to bring the pendant began to control. but now i think it's going obviously in the opposite direction. so if we find a number of tablets mutate artistic positive when they arrive here, we would restrict the numbers quite rapidly. based on what would you say to those say ok, the ceiling has been a huge success story. we'll give you our foes of some miles from actually no, we haven't introduced an island nation of only just over 5000000 people as possible for you to commit to an elimination. so is it quite different from a major country lately, u. k. and one of the great tang cripples and hubs of what all travel. totally

different situation. yes, i agree. i mean, i think his natural advantages insert as a strain yet. if you look at a country inside the china mainland china that has adopted elimination strategy early on, and it's protecting 1400000000 people. but they do have that price for say to stamp out. and also you look at it now, which is actually struggling now, but for a year largely maintain elimination strategy in particular over a $100000000.00 people with long, complex land borders with china, other countries. and that is just by assuming all the strategies you need for elimination to work, i would say you see when i started clay and in terms of ancestry, has many connections with scotland, the blood of our blood and the bone of our born scotland. this had 10000 deaths from call that compared to new zealand. 26 was subtler populations. would have been

possible and your estimation for scotland to pursue an elimination strategy. and talk with colleagues via, depending on who i think desperately wanted to pursue the strategy. i think it was support from the scottish government, but the difficulty was that you are always the united kingdom and to an extent, you had quite a large extent. you could not control your orders and that is a feature requirement to limitation. so i think scotland, that she got to the point of having very low numbers and if she was looking at elimination is potentially a strategy. but i think in the end that was difficult in that context, we're located looking up the, the vaccine, or what's your estimation of the efficacy of the writing vaccines which are

available and which ones are new zealand choosing? yes, well, i think the vaccines generally available in high income countries are or highly effective at preventing this in serious illness and somewhat of it stopping in fiction. but in case we have enough, find the vaccine to the whole country by the end of the year. and that we've gone with just one bit seen for simplicity that we had also as a positive extras in for another that seems that have been committed. but at this stage, i think from an equity point of view, there are, we can see, benefit to not being, not at the front of the queue, which is, you know, we've been true back in that you because there are other countries that desperately need, the vaccines it's actually life for much of the world to get that thing so pied

and administered. but of course we are now very keen to achieve full coverage and that we're on track to do that by the end of year fessor. baker, once again was assigned to celebrity biologist was she a pass to reaction to when you see the, the scenes which stood out you have of people celebrating at night clubs and rubber boots though the patterns with, with people if social distance figure probably 2 inches as opposed to 2 meters was a pass to reaction to that this extraordinary scenes of this week in london. well, what did you say is that is life and you see that the mon and that's being life and you see for the most of the duration of the pen dimmitt. so you can say that same looks very familiar to me. but then i realized that it's in the context of the virus still, i think had very high rates, in fact, the highest right now and the contact to population that is not fully estimated. so

that is what i find. unbelievable that that that policy is being taken. i'm, it seems close and i would say quite dangerous. would you in a vice for you case? citizen le, apart from the sting newsheel and as quickly as possible. what can people do in this environment to stay safe and passionate when family level one is remarkable to me, is that you can not vaccinating children. so in a sense that saying, we think it is okay to have 510000000 children and young people across the u. k. infected by the next 6 months. what's going to happen with these where it can be very hard to avoid being exposed to the bar given at the moment you're doing a 1000000 kids today and 5 to see them a positive. that means the county, the wash with delta dental of this virus. so it is,

i think almost everyone's going to speak spanish and me say, feel themselves off somehow from contact with other people. so unfortunately, some of the people who get sick will be funny that nation because it's just the expose and know that thing is 100 percent. so there will be people getting sick and dying as a result of this. the other concern i should say, and this is one of the reasons why scientists were concerned about this policy, is that this creates a huge opportunity for seeing escape. the areas that you're in that are somewhat or quite resistant to vaccine, will thrive and will copy for themselves. and that means with amazing evolution, the krisha will select favoring betsy. in this case, i think this environment of having

a population that's about half back to nature's and has a higher security virus. there is a perfect environment for these new variants to manage kind of professor, you're part of why don't capability of scientists positions in contact with each other. i. this is a little community of scientists studying the deadly virus. how do you keep in touch with each other in terms of coming up with new solutions? it's a great question. it's a mixture of establish contact info networks. and increasingly we, we have formed a network. we'll have network in fact, that is trying to bring to a community scientists. and also, i would say people who are quite active us because the, this is incredible frustration with government. some governments around the world of appears not privatized, protecting the public,

as they could head. and i can think that frustration and actual anger from colleagues in the u. k. because the pen image has been so badly managed, it's almost a list of what not to do. and so i think that has, certainly we got a feel when many, a lot of countries with governments doing the best. but i get that powerful sense of frustration, anger from my colleagues in the u. k. because of how we manage dependent response to being the 1st to michael baker from wellington, you see you and thank you once again for joining me. malik salmon show you coming up on to the break, alex continues. there are a few of the consequences of freedom be with dr. pod at pinkerton. yeah, jonathan. mm. oh,

it's like you're walking down a street in a town and in the store, windows are negative. in depression, you tend to go into the store and buy those thoughts and take them home as if they're years. in mindfulness, you walk down the street, you still see the sort storefront with the negative thoughts, but you don't go in and buy those ah, the eastern half of the united states were going to have 1000000000, if not trillions of periodical cicada is interacting with tens of millions of human beings in their backyard. oh my god. obviously some of the cicadas that have very high tolerance for alcohol because

they are already passing out on a 6 minute to 400. i mean that's a very satisfying and welcome back. alex is discussing the consequences of puerto johnson's corporate freedom de strategy, one of the most change and domestic critics. as dr. barton and connie, of exeter university. don't. but pin county you, you've been a trenchant critic of body johnson's freedom day. what are your key concerns? the key concerns are that we've got the ingredients love fact stone. on the one hand we've got a rising number of cases in the under, in the united states and united population all be younger. and then we have removed

all the restriction and restrictions in the places like nice clubs as well. and then to go along with that, we remove the mandatory infraction control measures like wearing a mask in crowded places, you train, etc. so we have the perfect storm, all no restriction, no infection control measures rising number of cases. and we don't have the authority to now impose as much infection control measures. can you think of any precedent of a country loosening restrictions into the t of a pandemic? no, it doesn't, and i as an infectious disease doctor, look at this and say, i wouldn't be doing this. i would at least have my foot on the brake pedal. i'm not here in the business of continues for i didn't for item restrictions. what we want

is slowly, carefully item by item reduce the restrictions and how your foot on the brake pedal just in case. so israel had to do a u turn as did holland, as big chile. so there is precedent that you just don't let go. you should have your foot on the brake pedal as a public health expel on personal feelings. when we saw the, the footage of, of london night clubs of young people bopping the night away, celebrating the freedom day of the stroke of midnight. what was your personal reaction when you saw these scenes? multiple phones, one is obviously, we have failed to educate, inform, and advise people about the dangers of getting infected. people seem to be unaware that if you get infected, the number of things can happen. one severe illness to you get better and only as well 3, you could go on to have a long covey so low companies and unknown,

unknown. we don't know how long it lasts, what damage it does. so when we saw all the people get together on the stroke of midnight to celebrate in a indoor place where alcohol is and lots of people, maybe for ventilation, it gives me a lot of cause for concern that we let go of managing this outbreak. looking at the evidence some across the planets at the present moment. can you give us an indication just how infectious, for example, the delta variant is. so if we want to make a comparison and you make comparisons by looking at what we call the basic or the effective reproduction number, we would have heard of it as referred to as our normal. so if we look at that, the delta variance is about $3.00 to $4.00 times more infectious than the already know wild whoo han saw chloe to waters. so it is

significantly more infectious. i have to cite whilst it is significantly more infectious. we are very painful that it is not significantly more disease causing and the other good news is that it is not significantly immune vaccine bypassing harder, we get to situation. i mean, i personally when i was at lee lee, england, scotland game and the euro championships a few weeks ago and the 12000 people, wembley, that the whole thing was rigorously enforced of pre testing and social distance thing. the students all over the place, telling the supposed to been good 5 to get the math class and things like that. how could we have gotten from that situation to just a few weeks later, a same a final, a final with 60000 people parking web with stadium? did you get any appreciation of that excel issue of control?

the is supporting available still, or probably uncontrolled. the events packed with tens of thousands of people. what has happened is i feel given up on wanting to control base because any one, any basic explicit infectious disease control would tell you that if you do the short time with the virus still present and spoke relating in the community, you're basically giving up on all your infection control measures, but we have watch enough television screens, but we have the day some of the key expense in the country with the prime minister, backing up for at least people thinking about melissa discussion in the scientific community. the messages are going present moment. there is a lot of discussion and if we will get the opportunity to look at exactly what government on advisors were saying,

it will come out in the wash because it is blindingly obvious that if you've got a lot of cases, you need to go cautious. but these are political decisions, i feel it cannot be led by science because the science is telling us you need to go careful, you need to go cautious. and the times would tell us nothing wrong, nothing wrong whatsoever. in mandating wearing off masks in public places because that reduces case number and allows us a small modicum of control. one of the young people in your class is what are they thinking about they they panoramic min 100. if an age group, which is know very much of many of the contemporaries putting themselves at risk, another hand that in your classes so they, they know a thing of to it. but by demick what this thing to you about, what's going on at the present moment. so i'm really privileged because i keep in touch with my students, and there is a cohort of students who communicate with me on

a personal basis. and they write to me, they sent me a workshop message and we communicate instantly what i would say to you personally . is look after yourself, don't get infected, don't in fact, others where a better quality mask. and i opt my advice from the ordinary surgical masks that we've been wearing. i said, i think we should update to an f b 2 because we have got a more infectious variant here. and i have to say, i'm sorry, i put science would lead the management of outbreak. but it looks like the politics actually takes, has the trauma, cod dot caught up if the government had waited instead of over 50 percent, past 2 thirds of a fast vaccination jag until perhaps 90 percent of the population will not position with them and able to do them and relative safety, what they're doing now in this high summer, the elephant in the room that we are not discussing and addressing properly is why

on what basis are we saying we do not wish to immunize children age 12 and above considering the m h r. a gave the vaccines clean bill of health. i'd appreciate that. there may be a minor, a small percentage who may have diabetes as a result of having the injection. but then on the balance of risks and benefits, i would say immunizing the children and that cohort would pay us many, many other additional benefits. i don't know why they're not doing. it would just say that schools being in england, they have been until this week. but at holiday in scotland, the schools been the main vector of transmission or a main vector transmission of those fires without doubt. and if we look at what we call heat maps, it starts off with the younger age, people, younger age groups,

and then it goes on to their parents and then it goes on to the grandparent. this is well known accepted signs, and the schools are a big mixing bullets. we know that the children who get infected may not be a disease, but self them will unfortunately go on to how long covey and we don't know what that means and how long it lap if it is permanent. the other thing is, it's if you immunize in that age group, it stops transmissions into older age groups and you have a protective shield. furthermore, once you've got a really immunized schools setting, you can have business continuity as normal in the schools setting. so that would be another bonus of immunizing age. 12 and above and the united states, canada, israel, france, netherlands, are all doing a particular danger in the prime minister's freedom. the experiment as if you are a total loosening of restrictions and a possibly vaccinated population. this might actually cutting civilians which are

escaping roland vaccines. you might be assisting with development over a supervisor. the switch can defeat coven vaccines at the moment. the places where very uncontrolled infections in a large number is actually a south american. so really we need to suppress infection in the united kingdom without doubt, and we need to suppress infection internationally do otherwise. the veterans that you describe will emerge. finally, dr. katia, if you had a message for the prime minister prime minister johnson lives after the freedom they hollow blue of this week, what would it be? please? can you reintroduce their magically varying of mosque in these places? and what about immunizing children age quote, anabolic which is

a very important thing to do. why are you not addressing it? dr. uncanny, thanks to your diversity. thank you. once again for joining me on the alex salmon show. thank you. according to chris christopherson, freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose alberta. johnson his stick. every thing on the link between coroner vitus on pressure on the national health service having been broken by the high you k vaccination rate. thus, the, you could government concept of freedom be withdrawing most corporate restrictions in england on monday of this week. however, the risks are evident. the u. k is currently undergoing a 3rd wave of corona by this based around the highly infectious delta v d. and what not the economy into the teeth of a corporate serge represents an experiment with precedence. the link between the virus and hospitalization has been weakened, but not broken entirely. and these are now on the rise. in addition,

the long term impact of the debilitating effects of the virus sometimes called long corbett, are not well understood. if infection mate started to pass 800000 cases a day, the food damage to the health of the population will not just be measured and immediate hospitalization. finally, professor baker points to the risk that you keep opening up with a partially vaccinated population. may facilitate the emotions of farther boxiness as to the videos that the virus, meaning that the consequences of johnson's experiment may have global reach. all the know, the drifts of freedom, d. c more to patent than any supported advantage. for nathan alex, myself, all at the show. it's good by stacy's, and we'll see all again next to ah,

[000:00:00;00] me in the, the war on drugs noted as a way to come back, a great problem. what's the wonder? it's part of the attitude of the nation, not just of north dakota, and it got to be something that you could get elected. this time, the fight against drugs took a tragic, told us that andrew was competing short form. this is way too dangerous for him to be doing. clearly they put him in harm's way. a rural college student does interest get shot in the head and found in

a river like that. something else had to be happening with the the news headlines is our chilling effect. so media freedom, that's the reaction to and you know, proposed by the u. k. government, which could threaten investigative journalist prison if they expose state secrets. also they saw us democratic party, men prioritize flashing police budgets, although the same time ramp up spending on their own private security and a sports cover up quite literally because no ways. campbell things fine for wearing sure that it became boston's we ask upon live guests if the rule affects the