hi, those thoughts and take them home as if they're yours. in mindfulness, you walk down the street, you still see the sort storefront with the negative thoughts, but you don't go in and buy those, gosh. ah, [000:00:00;00] me welcome to the alex, i mean sure. well, we examine the consequences of british johnson's feet and date this monday when made remaining corporate restrictions were lifted. although this just applies to england, scotland, northern ireland and then we'll are falling westminster and there relaxation of

many of this to show distinctions designed to prevent sprays of the virus this summer. my to the kids may not think of it depends then it was over with a wave of major sporting events had, 1st, these were trial events carefully managed with limited crites, but in quick succession england to stage the european football tournaments windows in the open gulf on the british country with the virtual 4 houses. unfortunately, these mass gatherings have quin faces with a resurgent virus with highly infectious visions leading towards record inspection rates, public competence and the government's message of removing controls has been shaken by the revelation last weekend. the vaccine protect to tell sex 2 sides of job it was himself infected, while prior to johnson was reported to cancel the victory over the vidas address. on monday, with 19 government concern over the search in new cooper cases for either monday was in state march by regular visa night clubs and reports and further claims from

his change. prime ministerial advice, woman cummings, that johnson had to put previous controls because only the over eighty's were dying . in addition, the prime minister and chancellor should have been pinned by their own apps to self isolate as close contact of the hill. 60, however, further control oversee followed when instead they said they could take advantage of a pilot to duly test and scheme for essential workers. a rapid you turn, followed in face of the wrath of the estimated half a 1000000 people who were self isolating at present onto the issue. we trying to new zealand talk to him only just on public health professor michael baker for the international feed. how does the county which is successfully pursued a corporate elimination strategy regarding the approach of the u. k. government? then dr. bought it from connie of extra university, expresses the fear of many u. k. experts about the risks and danger of the u. k. government policy, new zealand,

just one of the success stories of the pandemic around the same size of scotland. it's had 2800 confirmed cases of corbett and 26 fatalities. scotland infection made a similar to the other countries of the u. k. has taught more than 325000 cases and over 10000 deaths. professor michael baker is one of the key architects of the new zealand elimination strategy. professor michael baker. speaking from wellington new zealand, a country which has pursued successful elimination strategy at least up until now. you've had 2400 cases of coleman and 26 deaths. from that vantage point. how do you regard ball as johnson's freedom day? well, it seems responsible and finishing quite dangerous. this is policy response to

the covered only the more efficient delta variant. and it doesn't seem that you have the conditions for the up in the present. but should we have faith and the seen them in the u. k. has one of the highest vaccinated percentages of the population in the entire world? shouldn't we just put our faith in the vaccine to, to believe that that will be enough to suppress the virus? well, it seems that police, you spend serious presumes they're not quite present, preventing transmission. the trouble is that you, you only have, i think about 55 percent of the population at this point, and that's clearly not enough. so the thing that really amazes us is why the u. k is not waiting until it's scott white or high coverage with respect seen in particular. you could vaccinate down to 12 year olds,

possibly even to younger age groups in the future. and that's the parts being taken across europe in north america, and certainly the approach and you see, and i mean they're rolling up at sea now and we've got approval to vaccinate rage. and we wouldn't think of relaxing god until we had very high coverage down to those younger age groups. crescent because look in the form of his guidance for you k visitors to new zealand. and they, they want people to beware of for changing climatic conditions and also the possibility of terrorism. and what would be you're wanting to keep us to the united kingdom of the present. why i think that has to be fully vaccinated. because otherwise, it's a high shot, you gotta get a completion. well, new zealand, bang. you came visitors under couple circumstances and you'd have been, well, we have a system that tries to be quite even handed. we do obviously allow people come in by quantity. we have quantities free,

travel from astray and cook islands. occasionally that is limited from different parts. this is like what outbreaks, but it's been going in for 2 months. it's working well in general. but for other countries, we look at the, the proportion of people, the risk they will be infected when they arrive here. and at the moment we've had, we basically turned down the 10 was, would use the numbers of allows travel from countries that have out of control. and that has been india, pakistan and happy new guinea and path to south america. the u. k. was position before christmas, but since in it appeared to bring the pen, they began to control. but now i think it's going obviously in the opposite direction. so if we find a number of tablets mutate testing positive when they arrive. here we would

restrict the numbers quite rapidly. based on what would you say to those say ok, the ceiling has been a huge success story and we'll give you that your photo, some miles from actually no, we haven't in today's an island nation of only just over 5000000 people as possible for you to commit to an elimination is quite different from a major country lately, u. k. and one of the great tang cripples and hubs of what all travel? totally different situation. yes, i agree. i mean, i think his natural advantages and so as a strain. yeah. if you look at a country and find the china mainland china that has adopted elimination strategy early on, and it's protecting 1400000000 people. but i do have that price for say to stamp out and also be it now which is actually struggling now. but for a year largely maintain elimination strategy or particular over a 100000000 people with long complex land borders with china,

other countries. and that is just by assuming all the strategies you need for elimination to work. i would say, do you feel and start a clay? and in terms of ancestry has many connections with scotland, the blood of blood and the bone of our born scotland. this had 10000 this from corporate compared to new zealand. 26 was subtler populations. would have been possible your estimation for scotland to pursue an elimination strategy is definitely talk with colleagues. append in it, who i think desperately wanted to pursue the strategy. i think it was support from the scottish government. but the difficulty was that you are always the united kingdom and to an extent you had quite largest, you could not control your orders and that as

a teacher requirement to pursue elimination. so i think scotland, that she got to the point of having very low numbers and if she was looking at elimination is potentially a strategy. but i think in the end that was difficult in that context, we're located looking up the vaccine. so what's your estimation of the efficacy of the writing of vaccines which are available and which ones are new zealand choosing? yes, well, i think the vaccines generally available in high income countries are or highly effective at preventing defense, serious illness and somewhat of it stopping in fiction. but in case we have enough fines, events the to that think the whole country by the end of the year and that we've gone with just one bad thing for simplicity that we have also supplies the estrogen

for another that seems that have been committed. but at this stage, i think from an equally point of view, there are, we can see benefits not being, not a refund to the q, which is, you know, we've been through the back and that you, because there are other countries that desperately need the vaccines. it's actually life or death, much of the world to get that thing. so pied and administered. but of course, we are now very keen to achieve full coverage and that we are on track to do that by the year press a baker once again was assigned to celebrity biologist while she passed or reaction when you see the, the savings which stood out, you have of people celebrating at night clubs and rubber boots though this happens with, with people if social distance of probably 2 inches as opposed to 2 meters was a past or reaction to that the so extraordinary scenes of this week in london?

well, what does it say is that is life and you see in mon and that's being life, and you've seen it for most of the duration of the pen demik. so you can say that same looks very familiar to me. but then i realized that it's in the context of the virus still, i think had very high rates, in fact, the highest right now in the context of population that is not 40 destination. so that is what i find. unbelievable that, that, that policy is being taken. i'm, it seems ridiculous. and i would say quite dangerous. was you in a vice for you? case? citizen le, apart from the sting newsheel and as quickly as possible. what can people do in this environment to, to stay safe and passionate when family level one is remarkable to me is that you can not vaccinating children. so in a sense that saying,

we think it is okay to have 510000000 children and young people, the cost to you by the next 6 months with what's going to happen with these, where it can be very hard to avoid being exposed to the bar given at the moment, you're doing a 1000000 tests today and 5 percent positive. that means you can't be the wash with delta dental of this virus. so it is, i think almost everyone's going to expose and me say, feel themselves off somehow from contact with other people. so unfortunately some of the people who get sick will be fully estimated because it's just the expose and know that thing is a 100 percent. and so the people getting sick and dying as a result of this. the other concern i should say, you know, this is a, one of the reasons why scientists around the globe got concerned about this policy is that this creates

a huge opportunity for seeing escape. the areas that they're in that are somewhat quite resistant to vaccine will drive and make more copies for themselves . and that means with amazing evolutionary pressure or selective krisha favoring that seems variance. i think this environment of having a population that's about half that nature's and has a higher security virus. there is a perfect environment for these new variance to manage title professor. you're part of why don't capability of scientists positions and contact either some little community of scientists studying the deadly virus. how do you keep in touch with each other in terms of coming up with new solutions? it's a great question. it's a mixture of establish contact info networks. and increasingly,

we have formed a network. we'll have network in fact, that is trying to bring to a community of scientists. and also, i would say people who are quite active us because the, this is incredible frustration with government governments around the world of appeared not privatized, petite, in the public, as they could head. and i can sense that frustration and actual anger from colleagues in the u. k, because the pen image has been so badly managed, it's almost a list of what not to do. and so i think that has, certainly we feel in many, a lot of countries, governments doing the best. but i get that powerful sense of frustration, anger from my colleagues in the u. k. because of how barely managed dependent response being the 1st michael baker from wellington. you see,

and thank you once again for joining me, alex ivan, show q coming up after the break. alex continues this review of the consequences of freedom be with dr. pod plan katya. jonathan, me the me the whatever

the the, the welcome back. alex is discussing the consequences of borders. johnson's corporate freedom de strategy, one of the most trenchant domestic critics. and dr. barton and connie of exeter university. but thank you. you've been a trenchant critic of body johnson's freedom day. what are your key concerns? the key concerns are that we've got the ingredients, perfect stone. on the one hand, we've got a rising number of cases in the under,

in the united states and united population all be younger lation. and then we have removed all the restriction and restrictions in serious sense, the places like nightclubs as well. and then to go along with that, we remove the mandatory infraction control measures like wearing a mask in crowded places, you train, etc. so we have the perfect stolen or no restriction, no infection control measures rising number of cases. and we don't have the authority to now impose as much infection control measures. can you think of any precedent of a country loosening restrictions into the t of a pandemic? no, it doesn't, and i as an infectious disease doctor, look at this and say, i wouldn't be doing this. i would at least have my foot on the brake pedal. i'm not

here in the business of continues for i didn't for an item restrictions what we want is slowly, carefully, item by item reduce the restrictions and how your foot on the brake pedal just in case. so israel had to do a u turn as did holland, as big chile. so there is a precedent that you just don't let go. you should have your foot on the brake pedal. as a public health expel was your own personal feelings. when we saw the, the footage of, of london night clubs of young people bopping the night away, celebrating their freedom day at the stroke of midnight. what was your personal reaction when you saw these scenes? multiple phones, one is obviously we have failed to educate, inform, and advise people about the dangers of getting infected. people seem to be unaware that if you get infected, that number of things can happen. one severe illness to you get better and only as

well 3, you could go on to have a long covey. so and low copays and unknown, unknown. we don't know how long it lasts, what damage it does. so when we saw all the people get together on the stroke of midnight to celebrate in a indoor place where alcohol is and lots of people, maybe for ventilation, it gives me a lot of cause for concern that we let go of managing this outbreak. looking at the evidence some across the planet at the present moment. can you give us an indication just how infectious, for example, the delta variant is. so if we want to make a comparison and you make comparisons by looking at what we call the basic or the effective reproduction number, we would have heard of it as referred to as our norwalk. so if you look at that, the delta variance is about $3.00 to $4.00 times more

infectious than the already know wild. whoo han saw chloe 2 wires. so it is significantly more infectious. i have to cite whilst it is significantly more infectious. we are very painful that it is not significantly more disease causing and the other good news is that it is not significantly immune vaccine bypassing hard to get to situation. i mean, i personally when i was at lee lee, england, scotland game and the you know, championships a few weeks ago and 12000 people, wembley, the, the whole thing was rigorously enforced. the pre test thing and social distance thing. the students all over the place, telling the supposed to been good 5 to get the math class on and things like that. how could we have gotten from that situation to just a few weeks later, a same a final,

a final with 60000 people parking web with stadium. that you get in the appreciation of acceleration out of control, the sporting, available still, or probably uncontrolled. the events packed with tens of thousands of people. what has happened is i feel you've given up on wanting to control days because any one, any basic expertise infectious disease control would tell you that if you do this short time with the virus still present. and so it's relating in the community. you're basically giving up on all your infection control measures, but we have watched enough television screen spots. we have the day, some of the key experts in the country with the prime minister, backing up for at least people thinking about melissa discussion in the scientific community about the messages going present moment. there's a lot of discussion and if we will get the opportunity to look at exactly what

government on advisors was saying, it will come out in the wash because it is blinding the obvious that if you got a lot of cases, you need to go cautious. but these are political decisions, i feel it cannot be led by science because the science is telling us you need to go careful, you need to go cautious. and the times would tell us nothing wrong, nothing wrong whatsoever. in mandating wearing off masks in public places because that reduces case number and allows us a small modicum of control. one of the young people in your classes have been what are they thinking about the panoramic min, 100 of an age group, but just know that very much of many of the contemporaries putting themselves at risk. another hand that in your classes. so they, they know a thing up to about 5 demick. what this thing to you about what's going on at the present moment. so i'm really privileged because i keep in touch with my students,

and there is a cohort of students who communicate with me on a personal basis. and they write to me, they sent me what stopped message and we communicate instantly. what i would say to you personally is look after yourself. don't get infected, don't in fact, others where a better quality mask. and i opt my advice from the ordinary surgical masks that we've been wearing. i said, i think we should update to an f. b twos because we have got a more infectious variant here. and i have to say, i'm sorry i taught science would lead the management of the outbreak. but it looks like the politics actually takes, hasn't trauma, cod dots been caught up if the government had waited instead of over 50 percent, perhaps 2 thirds of a fast vaccination jag until perhaps 90 percent of the population will not session with them and able to do them and relative safety, what they're doing now, unless hi, summer,

the elephant in the room that we are not discussing and addressing properly is why on what bases are we saying? we do not wish to immunize children age 12 and above considering the m h r. a gave the vaccines clean bill of how i appreciate that there may be a minor, a small percentage who may have con diabetes as a result of having the injection. but then on the balance of risks and benefits, i would say immunizing the children and that cohort would pay us many, many other additional benefits. i don't know why they're not doing. it would just say that schools being in england, they have been until this week. but a holiday in scotland, the school's been the main vector of transmission or a main vector of transmission of this virus without her daughter. and if we look at what we call maps,

it starts off with the younger age. people younger age groups and then it goes on to their parents and then it goes on to their grandparent. this is well known accepted signs and the schools are a big mixing bullet. we know that the children who get infected may not be a disease, but self them will unfortunately go on to how long covey and we don't know what that means, and how long it laugh if it is permanent. the other thing is, it's if you immunize in that age group, it stops transmission into older age groups and you have a protective shield. furthermore, once you've got a fully immunized schools setting, you can have business continuity as normal in the schools setting. so that would be another bonus of immunizing age, 12 and above and the united states, canada, israel, france, netherlands, are old doing a particular danger in the prime minister's freedom. the experiment as if you are

a total loosening of distractions and a possibly vaccinated population. this might actually courage variance, which are escaping roland cub vaccines. you might be assisted with development over a supervisor. the switch can defeat coven vaccines at the moment. the places where very uncontrolled infections in a large number is actually a, shall fall for america. so really we need to suppress infraction in the united kingdom without doubt, and we need to suppress infection internationally to otherwise the veterans that you describe will emerge. finally, dr. katia, if you're a message for the prime minister prime minister johnson lives after the freedom they hollow blue of this week, what would it be? please? can you reintroduce the magnitude burning of must in these are the places and what

about immunizing children age called anabolic? which is a very important thing to do. why are you not addressing it, doctor from cario? thanks to university. thank you. once again for joining me on the alex salmon show . thank you. according to chris christopherson, freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose alberta. johnson his stick. everything on the link between crew, no virus on pressure, on the national health service. having been broken by the high u. k vaccination rate, thus the u. k. government's concept of freedom be withdrawing most corporate restrictions in england on monday of this week. however, the risks are evident. the u. k is currently undergoing a 3rd wave of corona by this based around the highly infectious delta v, the and what not. the economy into the teeth of a corporate surge represents an experiment with precedence. the link between the virus and hospitalization has been weakened,

but not broken entirely. and these are now on the rise. in addition, the long term impact of the debilitating effects of the virus sometimes called long corbett, are not well understood. if infection meet started to pass a $100000.00 cases a day, the food damage to the health of the population will not just be measured and immediate hospitalisation. finally, professor baker points to the risk that the u. k. opening up with a partially vaccinated population may facilitate their motions of farther boxiness, system radiance. divide this meaning that the consequences of johnson's experiment may have global reach. all the know, the drift of freedom, d. c. more to patent than any supported advantage from a, from alex myself and all that the show is good bye stacy's. and we'll see all again next.

ah, me ah, ah, all drugs started as a way to come back. a great problem. what's the one? it's part of the attitude of the nation, not just of north dakota, and it's got to be something that you could get elected. this time, the fight against drugs took a tragic, told us that andrew was competing short form. this is way too dangerous for him to be doing. clearly they put him in harm's way. a rural college student does interest get shot in the head and found in

a river like that. something else had to be happening with the, the a chilling effect to on media freedom. that's the reaction to a new law proposed by the u. k. government, which could threaten investigation. investigative journalists with prison exposes faith secret reporters point out the hypocrisy of the us secretary of state, claiming the defense independent journalists worldwide. while doing everything to lock up julian assigned for the rest of their life. us democratic party mares, a prioritize slash in police budgets. although at the same time ramp up spending on