competence, short form, and this is the way too dangerous for him to be doing. clearly they put him in harm's way. a rural college student does interest get shot in the head and found in a river like that. something else had to be happening. join me every 1st day on the alex salmon show when i was speaking to guess on the world, the politics sport business. i'm show business. i'll see you then me the in the me

a moment. welcome to the last few years, have seen a precipitous and crumbling off international agreements and previously accepted norms of behavior. planet, earth moves increasingly small for ever growing national interest with one notable exception. place exploration remains one of the very few areas where nations not only compete, but also cooperate is likely to stay this way. well, to discuss it now joined by some of the people director of the un office for outer space affairs to the people. it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for finding the time. my pleasure. my. you are one of the most renowned female physicists of today. i know that you have an asteroid named after you. so i want to start with and says it's metaphor. there is this concept of free space in physics, an area of freedom, gravitational forces. and i wonder whether in your line of work you can ever be

free off national influences. is there any free space as far as your office is concerned? of the office or out the space is, is, is an office of the us at the areas. so what we do is really to try to support member space in the, in they can them deliberations and in the field, the space trying really till months, the peaceful years this about the space, which is the main mandate that made the peers for uses of the space as and also the office. so in a way we have the beauty. i'm trying to provide fact evidence support with this research m active is any informed decision making process for, for members, things. when you're forming your recommendations, who is the sort of the ultimate entity that you're serving?

is it a particular nation state that you're dealing with or humanity is a whole whole in the sense that 1st of all, we have member states. so governments, a, in the committee in the committee currently we have $95.00 member states, but then the committee is the parent organization is the general assembly. so reality we serve the 190 member states of the united nations. but what we are trying to do, and considering that there is a huge se, se there's that the space sector is blooming from. from the commercial standpoint, it's also important to have all the stakeholders at the table. so governments are ok for 1st line, but also, you know, the private sector, the research community, and also the public because they sustain many important to hear all the needs and requirements. and let me ask a couple of questions about national actors because this is how space. yeah.

flirtation ultimately began. i know that your office is tasked with increasing access to space exploration for all by encouraging countries who have the relevant technology to open up their projects for researchers from all over the world. it sounds very inspirational as a proposition. how's it going on? impacted flame truck. this is going in a wonderful manner. we have agreements with a lot of space agencies, a lot of private companies and research centers from all over the world. we have agreements. if we talk about space agencies with jackson, it's just the japanese 12 agreements with the 2 space agencies in china or c, n a c and c. m a say with nasa, with the european space agency. and then we have companies like airbus or veal or, or other companies. for example, one is about a corporation in the united states. so what we try to do is really to leverage on

the knowledge of this partners from developed countries. and they offer free of charge their services, their support through us. so we app this is sort of a broker 12 teams from developing and emerging countries to get access to space. because clearly one of the shows, one of the show stoppers is the cost of the launch and the operation still transportation sampling and so that part is covered by our partner. now, i'm sure you would agree with that. the, the, the main hallmark of international space corporation is the international space station. and we usually think about it as international. but if we look more closely, it is one of the biggest, you know, most populous, most developed countries on this planet. china is actually banned from participating in the i says, activity is by an american degree. doesn't that somehow delude this last to

rhetoric of international because international needs to be and not only name, but also in substance? well, clearly it cannot enter into international of decisions. it's not, no, not at all in my, my role what, what i can do for the office does is really to facilitate also the conversations of just to make an example. 3 years ago, we organized the big, big event called eunice baseball. 50 was celebrating 50 years from the last eunice pace and is really interesting because what we beat was to, to create some action teams as we called them. so remember, safe working together to prepare the decisions. and so in particular on exploration, i post called space exploration and innovation. we have 3 coaches, one american,

when from jordan, and the 3rd one from china. so all together, the 3 individuals, expression of organizations put together a document which was presented them. now we have an official agenda item in, in the, for the sessions of the committee and they are discussing, continue to discuss altogether the topic they're discussing the topics rather than working together. and i interviewed a lot of for you and officials of the years. i know you have to be diplomatic by the very nature of your job, but i think it's also important to be as straightforward about the obstacles that prevent the policy that you're receiving from being effectively realized as much as we all like to talk about international corporation on they're also forces that quite openly push for segregation and exclusion. well,

in space is not accepting true in the solution of china from the international space station know about the national discussion. i cannot, i can't really cannot enter into that one i can do. and while that we are doing is really to try to facilitate the conversation and the conversation is going on quite well. if you look at what they've been able to do all together. 95 number states on the long term sustainability guidelines is in my opinion, a must have brought the motor at their earliest. you previously described the international space station as one of the greatest examples of international cooperation in the history of humanity. but it's future for the, for the time being is not very clear. i'm sure you're heard that this conference that russia may be withdrawing its participation after 2024 because the american sanctions prevented from you know, contributing functionally to that,

to that project on to concerned that if the current dynamics of geopolitics and space politics persist than the, the i to see overall legacy may not be as glorious as, as it's beginning. well, i am completely different view of the situation from a technical perspective, the space station, the international space station on the be a little bit. i don't want to say obsolete, but old but at the same time, it's assumed many interesting to know this, that system technologist been evolving so much that in the early to you can have you can have a commercial sector, bring it after, know still to the little bit are or even developing private space dish. so the future of human space flight, at least in the lower carpet, will be completely different from what it was before. so we can make a comparison. now what we have to do in order to be very, really inclusive,

is to allow l to facilitate emerging and developing countries to x to get access to space. and we'll actually control the bottlenecks allowing or i may believe that facilitation or rather not facilitation, but the access of everybody to for, for example, we have been able together with jackson under the excess, the space for all initiative we go, can you launching, it's for southern light was one cube of the the, the 1st father lived in 2018. what am i la? last year? and now the 22nd, we will have deployed the militia, moneisha sunlight. so in 3 years we allowed 33 countries to become space varying countries. because you have to consider that the moment in which they have to develop a satellite, and they have someone paying for the launch campaign,

except that except that up the launch the deployment and everything. they also have to register the satellite to do that, they have to create the national agency. they have to develop a national base. lo, except that, except that i saw it is the simple yes you may say is a drop in the ocean. but it's very inspiring and then you have to be done now step by step and it's working very well. now let me ask you about the private actors because that americans, in particular, under their bomb administration, made a decision to out source lower or bit exploration to private companies. and they've been quite successful and done as a top. you are an official. do you have any leverage over private actors and if so, is it any in any way, different your interactions with them from your interactions with national actors? well, the interaction with the private sector is extremely interesting. what i can see is

that day, you really want to follow the rules. the attitude this we want to talk to you to be able to understand which of the rules that they have to follow. because the main point is that month painting space safe. and so also having, you know, the right approach to sustainability means that they can a single but i can have a better business plan and have a better business model. so at the very end of talking about sustainability following the rules of the road, having a responsible behavior means maintaining a commercial safe state. but is it their own would, will or they have by law to comply with certain requirements? well, the requirements are imposed by the country because the countries have to be in line with international there they do within the framework of the national space program. yeah, i mean, everyone is, is really not only committed,

but you cannot get a license in the united states or in china or whatever if you don't follow the rules. and now that brings me back to the national space program because the current international space program agreement expires in 2024. and it's still unclear what will be the future orbital space program. china has gone its own way. russia is considering to do the same or perhaps join forces with china. i wonder if you have any preference. what do you think would be better for humanity, a better option for humanity as a whole. you know, having one big station and everybody collaborates or a many different national projects. my technical view of the situation is that in order to cooperate, you need to have partners which are able to master the model. you can back

a corporate if you must, of police and certain nation as i said, the future of the presence of humans, even humans in lower taught with this completely different from what it was 20 years ago. i've been working on the space station on my for my life, and i can tell you now the situation is different. so i will go more for collaborations in terms of old. so, expand mans a way you can use microgravity conditions. instead of thinking about infrastructures which are, which are better, they are distributed because you have more opportunities. and by the way, i mentioned today this morning at the end of the conference, we have a, a great agreement with china. they are opening up to 9 international experiments that we selected and they will fly. we'll charge on the china space station one on the same time we are discussing with jackson said with, with nasa. so it's really well well distributed and it opens up. it's so different

opportunities for developing and emerging countries. well dr. the people, we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments station for me or have got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy for me and let it be an arms race is often very dramatic. development only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very political time. time to sit down and talk this is your media a reflection of reality in

a world transformed what will make you feel safer? tyson lation community. are you going the right way or are you being somewhere direct? what is truth? what is faith? in the world corrupted, you need to defend the join us in the depths will remain in the shallows. ah, in the, the the me

a ball connection was a part of the doctors, the minute the did people, the director of the office for the outer space affairs. now dr. the people before they break, you mentioned emerging power is taking on the final frontier and we have a whole host of countries. israel, japan, in the united arab emirates, i'm sure they'll get even more crowded in the coming years in decades. is it current legal framework adopted half a century ago still fitting, so good. and as for all these developments, while in my opinion it is in the sense that the outer space, 3 b and the other 3 this. and also the principles approved long time ago. i agree with you when the situation was different. i've seen the foundation on what, what we do as i mentioned pace law. however, there is this new way. oh, let's say. i mean the, the ideal approving guidelines, we have the space debris mitigation guidelines approved back in 2007 and the long

term sustainability guidelines approved 2 years ago. the process that we follow, member face follow with our support is to approve everything by consensus, which means that you have 95 member states agreeing word by word on all the guidelines for everything. and so for what i see the or member of faith that a great on the guidelines are already implementing them. and i see more and more members days from the u. m. the one to join the committee. this year we have already 4 additional applications. so we will promote each 100 this year and if you consider them when i took up, do they just few years ago they were $76.00. we had an increase of about 25 percent in so so a few years it means that the, the world and member states are understanding the being part of the family. being of the table is the way to go. you mentioned the outer space street which was

signed in 1967 and which restrict military activities in in space. but over the last decade we've seen many arms control deal humble. i'm confident that this framework, the oil t framework will survive and will remain meaningfully implemented well. this is not to tell bacon that i am officially supposed to deal with. what i'm officially supposed to do is how, what to do in order to maintain the pistole is the survivors base. and so that's the reason why the long term sustainability guidelines and a lot of other activities that we do. because you know, we've, in a way we, we foster international cooperation exactly to, to be transparent, to being close in. so also 2144. if you want is something related to the fact that if there is more transparency in the this of countries,

there is an increased trust, but your office is not, i'm not mistaken. it is tasked it if it is within your prerogative to sort of promote the idea of the peaceful use of space or at least you know, resisting is militarization or weapon is ation. and this is where the, the main disagreement between the east in the west allies right now, russia and china do not want to see militarize. the united states is different. what i want to ask you without getting into this debate, among great powers, how does the rest of the world feel about it in other countries? how do they feel about putting weapons interstate? this is a discussion that we never take because as i said, this is more on the side a moment of face. so what we do is really how the main discussion is out to

improve inclusiveness, openness of international cooperation. and we, what we do really is to act as a broker. i'm trying to put people together. what i believe is that the system, the overall system should probably speed up a little bit because currently, you know, with the commercial sector blooming and they really want to do business in the rules have there, but probably there is a little bit more to be done in the in so what is clearly important is listen to everyone and trying to, to really understand the needs of everyone. and so what we have to do them is to try to propose the best possible compromise so that everyone can agree on certain solutions. i don't know if, if you would agree with me, but i think it flatters are human, eager to speak about space exploration, as you know, as an endeavor of the entire human race. but as more and more countries come to

this area, they also bring their national interest with them. and i wonder if you maybe not in your official capacity, but as somebody who's been involved in space politics for many years, you have any feeling and understanding of how to balance this issue. so space cowboys, you know, going around exploring and laying your claims to it. and, you know, keeping in mind the interest of humanity as a whole. well, they can tell is there a long time ago in my putting in professional lives? i was one of the originators of what we called the global exploration strategy. so the idea is to have a global open architecture for exploring mon marks and beyond because you have to consider the, not all the, the member states and of the un. my mistake on the globe have the countries have

the same ability this. so clearly you have to develop a bill, it is in the possibility to launch stop and read them, understand how to land on the planets. so it's a long process, right? which means that if you have a global open architecture, what is clear, what they bid them even come and sit in company each country can fill in the pending on the, on the basis of the needs requirements. and also, you know, the level of the logical advancement m a. so it's a place where we can jam. because then we can help members days in need to understand more how to do really hands on experience, trying to help them growing. now, ever since the cold war, we had this debate in russia about what is better suited for space exploration of whether it is competition that propels it forward or whether it is corporation. i

mean it's like a chicken and i guess that you think it's both and really both because if i, if, because it's the autonomy in certain things that is mandatory also to have backed up solutions. you know, if you want to send astronaut back and forth to lille, you cannot have just one source of, i mean over capsule going back and forth even is the most reliable system. you need to have more than one. so the system must be interoperable and also changeable and in this manner and all the astronauts also from different countries going to each other. one example on the space station that i always make if you have, i don't know it canadian experiment, which has to be performed several times. well, you can have sometimes the canadian, the performing experiment and then you to be in one and then the japanese one. so

in the result for them is a global science, we could have that as long as the international space station is in operation. but as i mentioned before, the various possibilities some countries proposing going that only way because they feel excluded. china is a good example. do you think we will witness and now the round of the raise to space, not between individual countries, but between groups of countries? well, this of frankly, i don't know is, is i see the situation there is, there is the need of having more than one infrastructure because also performing activity. this scientific experiments in developing also some products in space. i don't want to say is mandatory, but is helping the progress on earth. now it's exploration of both earth and the

space around it. humanity has left behind a lot of garbage. and as we can see in climate talks, deciding who is going, who is responsible for cleaning is and how exactly to do that is it is a very challenging question. i suppose it's even more difficult when it comes to space garbage not, well, it's well conceived. the under the umbrella, the long term sustainability guidelines, and there are other activities under there were potential new guidelines to be approved. but it's also quite interesting the fact that we are starting a certain number of initiatives or projects to to define a many cases say test cases. lesson learn best practices because one of the issues again, is not for the space for encompass because they know how to report what they do.

they're committed to do what they approved already in terms of guidelines. but what is the stream any important for us? and for the entire community, if they have their emerging and developing countries also are supported in understanding well they have to do for, for, let's see. let's also supporting in a way, responsible behavior in their, in their pre yes. because if you have a new company or a research team in a country which never the satellite and orbit well, they have to learn from scratch in the best approaches that they learn before they get it during the activity. so then they become really a responsible player, and we all understand that certain countries, including russia, cumulatively, historically, we're bigger polluters than others. do you think it should be again treated as sort of as a common challenge or should there be perhaps more precision in assigning

or assuming responsibility for what has already been done well and all the initiatives and activities that we are putting forward are really going in that direction, so clarify the situation every system to report what's going on improve the register of the object launch into the space eventually in the future. also being some other elements. all of this is, is found in the process and i'm sure they're in a very short time. i hope, a really short time. we will have collectively bumper stays, and on the other players, a better description of the situation to take the best form for them to take the bus. and from this committee, they will decide whether they want to clean the mass on odd right. well yes, because clearly you cannot, i mean, you can do anything with where you pull that they will take the right. yeah. yeah.

and the reason why i really convinced this will be the case is because the commercial sector is asking for that. not only for that, but the commercial sector is asking for that space, at least lower, corbett is ready for commercial, let's say, for the blooming of emotional may lead now in the united states in japan and other countries. but i'm sure that this will be through verizon in, in a lot of other countries. well, no, to the people we have to live there. thank you very much. it's been a very interesting. thank you for what you hope to hear. again, next week was apart from me. the

me the the this weekend protest is clash with police in central paris with water canada flight angry demonstrators. thousands rally nationwide against government plans to make cobit part is mandatory and public places of infections rise and looking back to some of the other big stories we brought you in the we've just gone a chilling effect on media. freedom is the reactions were dropped. british law, which could threaten investigative journalists with prison if they expose state secrets the devastation in china from what's being called.