seen a precipitous crumbling off international agreements and previously accepted norms and behavior planet, earth moves increasingly small for ever growing national english with one notable exception. place exploration remains one of the very few areas where nations not only compete but also cooperate is likely to stay. this wait while to discuss it now joined by someone at the depot director of the un office for outer space affairs to the people. it's great to talk to you. thank you very much for finding the time. my pleasure. my. you are one of the most renowned female physicists of today. i know that you have an asteroid named after you. so i want to start with and physics metaphor. there is this concept of free space in physics, an area of free, of gravitational forces. and i wonder whether in your line of work you can ever be free off national influences. is there any free space as far as your office is

concerned, all the office space is, is, is an office of the us at the areas. so what we do is really to try to support member space in in they can them deliberations and in the field, the space crime really til monday. the piece for us about the space, which is the main mandate that meet the peers for uses of the space as and also the office. so in a way, we have the beauty of trying to provide facts, evidence, support with this research and activities. any informed decision making process for, for member, when you're forming your recommendations, who is the sort of the ultimate entity that you're serving? is it a particular nation state that you're dealing with, or humanity as a whole?

is a hole in the sense of forcible. we have member states, so governments, a committee in the committee currently we have 95 member states, but then the committee is the parent organization is the general assembly. so reality we serve the 190 member states of the united nations. but what we are trying to do, and considering that there is a huge pay, we'll say that is that the space sector is blooming from. from the commercial standpoint, it's also important to have all the stakeholders of the table. so governments are ok for 1st line. but also, you know, the private sector, the research community, and also the public because they see money important to hear all their needs and requirements. let me ask a couple of questions about national actors because this is how space flirtation ultimately began. i know that your office is tasked with increasing access to space

exploration for all by encouraging countries who have the relevant technology. if you open out their projects for researchers from all over the world, it sounds very inspirational as a proposition. how's it going on in practice? why and what this is going in a wonderful manner. we have agreements with a lot of space agencies, a lot of private companies and research centers from all over the world. we have agreements if we talk about space agencies with jackson, it's just the japanese 12 agreements with the 2 space agencies in china are sienna, c and c, m a say, with nasa, with the european space agency. and then we have companies like air bus or veal or, or other companies, for example, one is center and another corporation united states. so what we try to do is really to leverage on the knowledge of this partners from developed countries. and they

offer free of charge their services, their support, who was so we app this is sort of a broker 12 teams from developing an emerging countries to get access to space. because clearly one of the shows, one of the show stoppers is the cost of the launch and the operation still transportation sampling and so that part is covered by our partner. now, i'm sure you would agree with that. the, the, the main hallmark of international space corporation is the international space station. and we usually think about it as international. but if we look more closely, it is one of the biggest, you know, most populous, most developed countries on this planet. china is actually banned from participating in the i says, activity is by an american degree. doesn't that somehow delude this last to rhetoric of international because international needs to be and not only name,

but also in substance? well, clearly cannot enter into international decisions. it's not, no, not at all in my, my role. what, what i can do for the office does is really to facilitate also the conversations just to make an example 3 years ago, we organized the big, big event called eunice baseball. it was celebrating 50 years from the last eunice pace. and is really interesting because what we beat was to, to create some action teams as we called them. so remember, faith working together to prepare the decisions. and so in particular on exploration i post called space is proration, an innovation. we have 3 coaches, one american, when from jordan, and the 3rd one from china. so all together,

the 3 individuals, expression of their organizations, put together a document which was presented to them. now we have an official agenda item in them . for the sessions of the committee and they are discussing, continues to discuss altogether the topic they're discussing, the topics rather than working together. and you know, i interviewed a lot of for you and officials with the years. i know you have to be diplomatic by the very nature of your job, but i think it's also important to be straightforward about the obstacles that you know, prevent the policy that you're pursuing from being effectively realized. as much as we all like to talk about international corporation on they're also force and that quite openly push for segregation and exclusion. well, in space is not exactly true in the solution of china from the international space

station, the national discussion. i cannot, i can really can enter into that one i can do. and while that we are doing is really to try to facilitate the conversation. and the conversation is going on quite well. if you look at what they've been able to do all together 95 number states on the long term sustainability guidelines is in my opinion, a masterpiece of product that you previously describe the international space station as one of the greatest examples of international cooperation in the history of humanity, but its future for, for the time being is not very clear. i'm sure you've heard that this conference that russian may be withdrawing its participation after 2024 because the american sanctions prevented from contributing functionally to that to that project . on to concerned that if the current dynamics of geo politics and space politics

persists than the, the i to see overall legacy may not be as glorious as, as it's beginning. well, i have completely different view of the situation from a technical perspective, the space stations, to the international space station. that's to be a little bit, i want to say obsolete, but old. but at the same time, it's assuming interesting to know this, that system technologist been evolving so much that in the l e t. you can have you can have a commercial sector, bring it after, know still to the lord or are or even developing private space dish. so the future of human space flight, at least in the lower arm, it will be completely different from what it was before. so we cannot make a comparison. now what we have to do in order to be very, really inclusive, is to allow l to facilitate emerging and developing countries to x to get access to

space. and to actually control that bottleneck allowing or i may believe about facilitation or rather not facilitation, but the access of everybody to for, for example, we have been able together with jackson on the, the extra space for all initiative. we go, can you launching its 1st southern light? was one of the film? the, the 1st by the light in 2018. what am i la? last year and now the 22nd. we will have deployed the militia. my dish is satellite . so in 3 years we allowed 33 countries to become space that in countries because you have to consider that the moment in which they have to develop a satellite. and they have someone paying for the launch campaign, etc, etc. the launch the deployment and everything. they also have to register the

satellite. to do that, they have to create the national agency. they have to develop a national space, lo, etc, etc. so it's, it's the circle. yes, you may say is a drop in the ocean. but it's very inspiring and then you have to be done no step by step and it's working very well. now let me ask you about the private actors because the americans, in particular, under their bomb and ministration, made a decision to out source floor or bit exploration to private companies. and they've been quite successful. done as a top you are an official. do you have any leverage over private actors and if so, is it any in any way, different your interactions with them from your interactions with national actors? well, the interaction with the private sector is extremely interesting. what i can see if they are, they really want to follow the rules. the attitude is we want to talk to you to be

able to understand which of the rules that they have to follow. because the main point is that month painting space safe. and so also having, you know, the right approach to sustainability means that they can a single, but i can have a better business plan, can have a better business model. so at the very end of talking about sustainability following the rules of the road, having a responsible behavior means maintaining a commercial safe space. is it their own would, will or they have by law to comply with certain requirements? well, the requirements are imposed by the country because the countries have to be in line with information within the framework of the national space program. yeah. in every one is, is really not only committed but you cannot get a license in the united states. so in china or whatever,

if you don't follow the rules and now that brings me back to the national space program because the current international space program agreement expires in 2024. and it's still unclear what will be the future off orbital space program. china has gone its own way. russia is considering to do the same or perhaps join forces with china. i wonder if you have any preference. what do you think would be better for humanity? a better option for humanity as a whole. you know, having one big station and everybody collaborates or a many different national projects. my technical view of the situation is that in order to cooperate, you need to have partners which are able to master the model. you can back a corporate if you want a police and certain nation as i said,

the future of the presence of humans, even humans in lower toby, this completely different from what it was 20 years ago. i've been working on the space station on my for my life, and i can tell you now the situation is different. so i will go more for collaborations in terms of voltage. so, expiry man's a way you can use microgravity conditions instead of thinking about infrastructures which are, which are better, they are distributed because you have more opportunities. and by the way, i mention today this morning the, the conference. we have a great agreements with china. they are opening up to 9 international experiments that we selected and they, they will fly. we'll charge on the china space station one on the same time we are discussing with jackson sandwich with nasa. so it's really well well distributed and it opens up is so different opportunities for developing and emerging countries

. well dr. people we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments section for me or in my phone 6. and i don't, i just saw up the format isis fighters and they're now boarding a philippine naval ship with

john $900.00 jeff, aren't abdulla still don't know, watch waiting for them. can i get a hold of me . ready ready i the me i welcome back to the parts with dr. simon at the people and director of the you and office support, outer space affairs. now dr. the people before the break you mentioned emerging power is taking on the final frontier and we have

a whole host of countries. israel in japan, in the united arab emirates, i'm sure they'll get even more crowded in the coming years and decades. is the current legal framework adopted half a century ago still feeding, so good enough for all these developments. while it may have been, it is in the sense that the outer space, 3 v and the other 3 this and also the principles approved long time ago. i agree with you when the situation was different. i've seen the foundation on what, what we do in information space low. how ever there is this new way? oh, let's say. i mean the, the ideal approving guidelines, we have the space debris mitigation guidelines approved back in 2007 and the long term sustainability guidelines approved to years ago. the process that we follow a member face follow with our support is to approve everything by consensus. which

means that you have 95 member seats agreeing word by word on all the guidelines and everything. and so for what i see the or member of faith that agreed on the guidelines are already implementing them. and i see more and more members days from the u. m. the one to join the committee. this year we have already 4 additional applications. so we will probably reach 100 this year. and if you consider them when i took up duty just few years ago, they were 76. we had an increase of about 25 percent in so so a few years it means that the world and member states are understanding the being part of the family. being of the table is the way to go. you mentioned the outer space street which was signed in 1967 and which restricts military to reduce it in space. but over the last decade we've seen many arms control deal humble.

i'm confident that this framework, the oil t framework will survive and will remain meaningfully implemented well. this is not to tell bacon that i am officially supposed to deal with. what i am officially supposed to do is how, what to do in order to maintain the physical use of the space. and so that's the reason why the long term sustainability guidelines and a lot of other activities that we do. because you know, we've, in a way we, we foster international cooperation exactly till to be transparent, to being close, if so also to 144, if you want is something related to the fact that if there is more transparency in the david this of countries there is an increased trust in your office if not, i'm not mistaken. it is tasked it if it is within your prerogative to

sort of promote the idea of the peaceful use of space or at least you know, resisting is militarization or weapon is ation. and this is where the, the main disagreement between the east in the west a life right now, russia and china do not want to see it. militarize the united states is different. what i want to ask you without getting you into this debate, among great powers, how does the rest of the world feel about it? you know, other countries, how do they feel about putting weapons into space? this is a discussion that we never take because as i said, this is more on the moment of face. so what we do is really how the main discussion is out to improve inclusiveness, openness of international cooperation. and we, what we do really is to act as a broker. i'm trying to put people together. what i believe is that the system,

the overall system should probably speed up a little bit because currently, you know, with the commercial sector blooming in, they really want to do business in the rules are there, but probably there is a little bit more to be done in the in so what is clearly important is listen to everyone and trying to, to really understand the needs of everyone. and so what we have to do them is to try to propose the best possible compromise so that everyone can agree on certain solutions. i don't know if, if you would agree with me, but i think it flatters are human, eager to speak about space exploration, as you know, as an endeavor of the entire human race. but as more and more countries come to this area, they also bring their national interest with them. and i wonder if you maybe not in your official capacity. but if somebody who's been involved in space politics for

many years, you have any feeling and understanding of how to balance these issues. so space cowboys, you know, going around exploring and laying your claims to it. and, you know, keeping in mind the interest of humanity as a whole. well, they can tell is there a long time ago in my putting in professional lives? i was one of the originators of what we called the global exploration strategy. so the idea is to have a global open architecture for exploring mon marks and beyond because you have to concede that the, not all the, the member states and of the un, my mistake on the globe have the full countries have the same ability this. so clearly you have to develop a bill, it is in the possibility to launch stop in orbit in them, understand how to land on the planet. so it's a long process, right?

which means that if you have a global open architecture, what is clear, what is them? even common fit in company. each country can fit in the pending on the, on the basis of the needs requirements. and also, you know, the level of technological advancement am a social place where we can jam. because then we can help members days in need to understand more how to do really hands on experience, trying to help them growing now, ever since the cold war, we had this debate in russia about what is better suited for space exploration of whether it is competition that propels the forward or whether it is corporation. i mean, it's like a chicken and i guess that you think it's both and really both because if i, if, because it's the autonomy in certain things that is mandatory also to have backed

up solutions. you know, if you want to send astronaut back and forth to leal, you cannot have just one source of, i mean, the caption going back and forth even is the most reliable system. you need to have more than one. so the system must be interoperable and also changeable and in this manner and all the astronauts also from different countries going to each other. one example on the space station that always make if you have, i don't know it canadian experiment which has to be performed several times. well, you can have sometimes the canadian of performing gets betterment and then a utopian one and then the japanese one. so in the result then, is a global financing. we could have that when, as long as the international space station is an operation. but as i mentioned

before, the various possibilities some countries proposing going that only way because they feel excluded. china is a good example. do you think we will witness and now the round of the raise to space, not between individual countries, but between groups of countries? well, this of frankly, i don't know is, is i see the situation there is, there is the need of having more than one infrastructure because also performing activity. this scientific experiments in developing also some products and space. i don't want to say is mandatory, but is helping the progress on earth. now it's exploration of both earth and the space around it. humanity has left behind a lot of garbage. and as we can see in climate talks, deciding who is going, who is responsible for cleaning it and how exactly to do that is it is

a very challenging question. i suppose it's even more difficult when it comes to spade garbage not. well, it's well conceived, the under the umbrella, the long term sustainability guidelines, and there are other activities under there were potential new guidelines to be approved. but the social, quite interesting, the fact that we are starting a certain number of initiatives or projects to, to define a many cases say test cases. lesson learn best practices. because one of the issues, again, is not for the space for encompass because they know how to report what they do. they're committed to do what they approved already in terms of guidelines. but what is history many important for us and for the entire community is their, their emerging and developing countries also are supported in understanding or they

have to do for, for, let's say, let's also supporting in a way, responsible behavior in their, in their free. yes, because if you have a new company or a research team in a country which never the satellite and orbit well, they have to learn from scratch in the best approaches that they learn before they get it during the activity. so then they become really a responsible player, and we all understand that certain countries, including russia cumulatively historically, were bigger polluters than others. do you think it should be again treated as sort of as a common challenge or should there be perhaps more precision in assigning or assuming responsibility for what has already been done well and all the initiatives and activities that we put in for the are really going in that

direction, so clarify the situation every system to report what's going on improve the register of the object launch into the space eventually in the future. also being some other elements. all of this is how the process and i'm sure they're in a very short time, i hope, a really short time. we will have collectively bumper days and on the other players a better description of the situation to take the bus from the see for them to take the bus. from alchemy, they will decide whether they want to clean the mass on. all right, well yes, because clearly you cannot, i mean, you can do anything with where you pull them. they will take the right. yeah. yeah . and the reason why really convinced this will be the case is because the commercial sector is asking for debt. not only for that,

but the commercial sector is asking for that m space, at least in low lower corbett is ready for commercial. let's say for the blooming of emotional may lead now in the united states in japan and other countries. but i'm sure that this will, through verizon, in, in a lot of other countries. well, no, to the people we have to live there. thank you very much for the very interesting. i thank you for what you hope to hear. again, next week was apart from me in the me ah,

who want to make sure, you know board is under my number t's as emerge. we don't have authority. we don't actually the whole world needs to take action and be ready. people are just, you know, governors crisis, we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each of their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is paid for the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are together in

the the, this weekend police fire war. the candidate angry protest is in central parish. thousands rally nationwide against government plans to make cope with policies mandatory and public places of infection. dr. looking back to and some of the other big stories we brought you in the we just got a chilling effect on media. freedom in the reaction to draw pretty slow, which could threaten investigative journalists with prison if they expose state secrets the devastation in china from what's being called the work flooding in a 1000 years.