ah, me, dares thing we dare to ask me. ah, ah, the news i'm action or attention, you're watching a special episode of going underground, looking at privacy war colonialism in pandemic through the lens of the world's

largest democracy. india is allegations of spying on political opponents rocker the moody government after the so called pegasus leeks. i'm joined now by one of the most famous politicians and intellectuals, former under secretary general of the un shushing through it to discuss what the accusations against israeli spyware firm and assuming for indian global democracy. thank you so much for coming back home before we even get to the spying allegations . how are you? i understand that you're recovering from co video in the hospital for a short time. i mean a you okay. i know that the per capita rate is much worse here in britain than in india. that's right. no, it wasn't pleasant. i had what they call a long code and there was a complication of something called coded induce vitamin bio cars, which gave me a wrong key outrage. sort of, it would go down to 30 some warnings and to talk to, you know, $120.00 or under a couple of hours later. so that was the reason. yeah. it was the challenge. but apparently it's not in cases of covert enough to while into the rex itself,

which it seems to be in the process of doing because i've been back, i know we're scheduled for about 10 days and i'm not feeling particularly particular arabic. so let's say that these are going, all right, so, and you've been double vaccinated. i mean, how long the doctor saying this last because obviously of other people watching this want to know as well. well, i mean, you know, think about long as you never have food conditions and once it's finished, you never really know how long it can last. so there's no question that as far as my own case is concerned, i was largely operating out of bed for about 22 months, maybe even 2 and a half. there are people who, as long as 6 or 8 months off to be attacked by the virus, have actually complained about cheating. for example, a stream fatigue. you believe the double vaccination helped?

i think it could have been much worse without so i'm strongly advocating vaccination for everybody. in my case, i've just taken the 2nd vaccine less than a week before symptoms a bit out of it. so it's possible that the 2nd vaccine didn't really have time to do its work in the body and generate the necessary antibodies. but having said that, there's no question that it could have been very much bush and that if it went to the vaccination, who knows where i'd be sitting and talking to you today to go out and vaccinate before you watch. well, you certainly have been politically active in the past few days, the chairman of the information technology standing committee there in india. what have you made of the allegations that the government has been using this in israeli intelligence surveillance software on congress party politicians. what general the serious charges cost because you know, the,

the software according to the company that retails it, is only available to, to government there. and we sell it to government. what they call that governance on the basis of care and from the israeli government. it's obviously a very serious to have meant to be used to track criminals and terrorists. they say whether it's been deployed against domestic political bones, gross misuse of debt, spend money for one thing. and it's also illegal in terms of the law because we do permission perception by law and also deception of communications. but these are only for very specified purposes to deal with national security as well as the commission on the prevention of the commission of crime. you can just intercept and certainly can get permission to dissent for political advantage. so that's the thing the government appears to be saying that is new in any of these up of these

claims. and if that is so, then the matter becomes serious in a very different way option, which is then a foreign government must have deployed this software against people, an indian public life. and surely that's worthy of a full and detailed investigation as well. so i've been calling for an independent judicial investigation into these charges and do establish exactly what happened, how this was allowed to happen, to some phones of people who have been infected and see whether they have been infected and, and where the waiver should need for us the biggest concern is obviously the potential assaults on the foundations of all the markers. and what's been the response from the movie government? well, the government has issued a statement in each house a follow up saying that it's on a stolen antique um and that has been no, but i mean, to request your request for

a judicial investigation. they haven't addressed it. and in fact, i'm sure that some of the victims, because you know, about 10 indians have phones that have been proven to have been infiltrated by the biggest spyware. i think because of that these people will, in fact be likely to approach the courts, possibly the supreme court asking for judicial inquiry as well. so whether the government why to move under, for example, what's for the commission of inquiry at all whether the supreme court. so for jake independent action, we do believe a judicial inquiry would be the most effective way of getting to the bottom. i mean, on the, on the other hand, moody is perhaps the individual with one of the greatest electoral democratic mandates on earth surveillance of a few phones. what is that going to do to your electoral process,

is i understand that their allegations of electoral officials as part of the spyware hack? well, you know, if the government did it, and this is precisely what many people say, it's the kind of incredibly unnecessary inclusion into the elliptical life of the lives of individuals that really marks out an autocratic tendency in what ought to be a democratic government. you're right, overwhelming mandated crushing majority in parliament and the mr. movies, popularity ratings continue to write. why would he need to do each? and yet the list of targets do not look like a kind of list that would be a particular interest to some foreign government who presumably far more interested in our army or our intelligence. or indeed those ministers in the government themselves, rather than opposition. politicians,

journalists covering political regions just reach and human rights actors, so that the main numbers on this t v show base appear to be of people on the governor's, not terribly happy with, rather than of people that foreign governments want to intreat. and this is why the, the concern is why are you doing this and doing to realize what you're doing against the law. the law doesn't nature to intercept for any reasons other than those specified in the logs and the law doesn't permit you to hack other people's devices anyway and infiltrate malware into any computer. the computerized device or source using a language of 2000 i. t at the fact is that all of this is really what is writing up space right now. the bottom and has been disrupted for a couple of days by opposition and demanding and inquiry. and the governments are

generally in the future. you implemented discussion of the month as resulted in is a huge disruption of bottom entry discussion and a suspension repeated adjournment to follow. so it hasn't been hasn't been a particularly good reach for the government any. well yeah. gandy is supposed to be on this list. 50000 names, it's rocking different governments around the well, we don't have the full list of the 50000 n s o says it's just like the white pages shouldn't be taking that much notice. but then you just said people the government on that happy with you, saying that movie isn't happy with his own it minutes as the vash. because vacation all because well, he's on the list is in the why would moody bugging his own id minister? well, 1st of all, bugging or whatever even call it a snooping took place 2 years before the person was even in the parliament. that would have been possible verification procedure to see if there was anything going

wrong that would dissuade the government from offering the season. the upper house followed by a serial. so you know, that can be multiple moves. you can, you can check the phone, nothing opposition member. because you want to find out what they're up to you to check the phone of campaign manager. whispering go cheap minister because want to know what effect you saw in the election campaign. and you can check the form of a prospective minister. because you want to see whether there's anything you want to know about him before you give him a seat. in the upper house apartment attention. so motivations can be yeah, well, as i said, the moody government categorically denied, but you know about all this stuff because you are under secretary general of the united nations. what did you make when you found out that george w bush was bugging your office? i mean, i think we all accept that that. busy is all of the set them up surveillance as

part of the normal international. should we say security apparatus? every country seeks intelligence on every other. this is more theory of coffee and this is joining the run them to the iraq war. and this is the office of the secretary general united nations. all i'm saying is very often, many of us in public office conduct ourselves on the assumption that we may be eavesdropped upon. it's a different method when you're talking, lighting shopping in the domestics of space. i think anybody dealing with issues of international doroty, including war and peace, we'll have to assume that there is a certain level of interest after all, we know about the famous cases which present the bars of ministration. bomb, chancellor, merkel and president recess and brazil. so you, there's

a question that these things happen even happened between allies and friends. so the question is, when you extend this practice to domestic politics, you're doing a number of things that are both illegal and on. if you are actually using taxpayers money to promote the bosses and political advantage of one party which happens to be and to distort one other words in the book receives meant to be a level playing field between different sets of political opinions in your country to my mind that is in some ways more disturbing than the old cloak and dagger a james bond kinds of stuff that governments have been playing with each other and against each other. since i know more well the israeli and i so company say as you said, that is it goes to vetted governments, but i don't know. i mean, is there a possibility there are some indians that are very wealthy indeed. i think you have

more billionaires than we do here in britain. good, a private individual rather than the moody government, as you suggest, be responsible. if the company itself envies really government say there will be center government. i gather the spyware is treated as a going to treat on the israeli law, and i don't see how anybody could acquire saturday. i'll stop you there more for you, for all of a short break. i the what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy, even from station let it be an arms race is often very dramatic. development only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very critical of time. time to sit down and talk

me welcome back. i'm still here discussing democracy privacy and then mix with one of these great politicians and writers former under secretary general of the un charging you have no objection though, to surveillance being used against criminals itself. i don't know if look, i mean, you know, frankly if people unfortunately in this world of us resort to setting off bombs in crowded market places and that's all i think we in every democracy counter not security forces to keep innocent civilians. and if during that requires them sniffing around to see the kinds of people who might be tempted to set off bombs and listening to their conversations. i do believe that most people would understand i did all countries case in any case, it's permitted by law. we have the telegraph act of the british give us an 885,

and we have the information technology act of 2000, both of which are made interceptions and grounds of national security sovereignty security of india and so on. so terrorism and criminal activity, i think no one would really object, even the most democracies to the government having the right to, to intercept communications. and these are on quote unquote, maybe that relying grid line when it comes to hacking. because as i say, the introduction of a virus or malware is illegal in india and the indian law and other kind of laws. and if that's the technique you use when you are potentially guilty as charged, because in all this, you're going to a penalty specified a 3 is in prison and 5 like 500000, something recursive about that because you can then allow surveillance of those

doing the surveillance, obviously, because that would be a criminal act. i mean, julian assange is in jail here in london. it, thanks to him. we know about mass surveillance, perhaps mass surveillance on the offices in new york when you were there. and he of course, helped edward snowden escape to moscow. but the foreign government considers someone criminal, then they can presumably use surveillance software against them anywhere in the world. i mean, you need, you can accept the job, right? and ministration is trying to expedite the julie, the search will look it's a very complicated issue and each of us as private individuals, values are privacy and does not particularly want to give anybody a free pass. but we also convinced of our own veteran, we know we're not funding to set her bombs anywhere or anybody or do any, any harm to society of the public at large. and therefore we feel that righteously, that the government shouldn't be going off to us. but if tomorrow such a bomb was off, i think people will go ahead and turn around. busy and asked,

what was the government doing security agencies, the police for the switch, while people were planning to do bad things. so i think that's a whole different exception, like pegasus scandal is about the misuse of a software, which these makers claim can be used as intended to be used against criminals and generous being applied instead to people who unlocked rules and terrace pursuing their political activities and often that on their own, and not just political by the journalist about hockey journalists on the indian. well, we'll have to see whether an inquiry is a institute back to corona virus. india is the center a global center vaccine production. is it a bit like what happened in the glorious empire, your book extraction of the wealth of india, that the vaccines are going to countries outside india whilst are not going to the

indian population? fortunately, some things have changed. for example, in itself is the world's largest, that if manufacturer vaccine 60 percent off the world's vaccines pre kobe were made in india or the small box, all of that stuff that you know back to. but there are certainly some russian qualities in the way in which we find that couple of countries, the only countries which have managed vaccination, more than half populations at once in some cases was all develop rich countries. whereas boss parts of the african continent, many, many areas of the world have have reached basically people indeed. and i think it's 5.5 percent of our population that i'm actually so we are looking at a certain evident injustice and the folly of it for some child is that nobody in

the world is really safe. as long as some people are. i'm sick because even if you vaccinated against all known barriers today in england and vaccination, african version of the virus could come in and let you know more. so what you want to do, what interest of manage is for every country to have a majority of its citizens vaccination so that the virus is not able to spread that easily to mutate into further dangerous variance. already making considerable and way down the greek element or the alpha gamma epsilon lambda, and survive. this is all very, it's a big part of all around and small company. so we really do, i think we are behaving somewhat chunk of the and i would urge the international community as often requesting that it doesn't often behave as if it is a community to come together and make sure that everybody is effectively able to be

vaccination. as you know, there is the kovacs initiative hasn't failed, hasn't failed. well, let's put it this way, haven't succeeded so far. and part of the reason is precisely because it hasn't received the funds and it hasn't been able to make significant dent for install, get audience, which is the developing world. now why do you think your london and brussels are opposing jo biden's intellectual property waiver? the presumably would be, would allow in his massive vaccination manufacture infrastructure to create as many vaccines as they want to just spread it freely across india. why? why does even the united states try to do something and is opposed by the intellectual property very well. and i think everyone respects the fact that those are actually done the research and come up with these vaccines. is that a clause and royalties and everything else? but at the same time for missing the manufacturer is an imperative,

imperative need of humanity. and i must, i'm at a loss. busy to justify you stand in this matter. certainly, what about procedural safeguards? the want, before permitting the manufacturer of european devised vaccines in other countries can be instituted, but to not permit the licensing at all is extremely difficult to justify morally ethically and, and as i said practically because up tomorrow, the countries you failed to vaccination can come back and, and in fact you now, in the, are obviously has more poverty than the whole of sub saharan africa put together. but now they're saying hundreds of millions of being pushed into poverty by corona virus. what is the extent that you are seeing? well, that's very good because obviously the, the economic impact of no buyers has been as devastating as the else

we estimated to have something like 314. i think about 3400000 to 4900000, accessed this extra step to the collect way of saying that that's that we had in the normal yeah. multiple codes. so you can attribute the bulk of these jets to code. that's been a last lesson setback, but in addition to that, that's obviously in many cases and read. so supporters and their families, there's also been thanks to locked down just company measures a tremendous slowing down of the economy and as a result, unemployment. and yesterday is the highest levels ever recorded. and the, the challenge we are facing is that our people are jumping once again below the poverty line. we'd be proud of saying that for about 15. yes, we had about 10000000 people rising above the poverty line. thanks to,

thanks to the very system on the measures from a liberalization of 991 of our economy. if a 150000000 people therefore came law middle us, it's quite conceivable that the vast majority of them have drunk back out of the middle class and below the poverty line. once i can save you, i guess the view is in beijing watching this, scratching their heads. i mean, celebrating a 100 years of the chinese communist by the and bringing 810000000 people out of poverty compared to your figures of 10000000 before go it. well, i think, you know, the communist chinese ways away or indeed anybody else, as i suspect we have, they have their own track record and we admire what on push for. that's not something that's not easily metrical, but anywhere else. and in india, as a democracy,

kind of rather tough down decree kinds of change. that appointment is china as been able to institute. it's simply not available. it hasn't been so far. we've been able to bring about change in progress just in graduate, but it's for people along with us. and we have been able, as i say to last poverty now we have a longer. busy catch up again, the one that was most staring images of ideas was that of families to, to barriers. premier said losing the caucuses of their loved ones down the river. the only way because they couldn't disposable bondage. i mean, that is something that's absolutely renders, but it's, it's a stock method how, how badly has done in this and how much people have suffered. well, i should ask, what are your relations with china? what is india's relations with china? obviously this comes to a, for some have said that the india and china last meet in afghanistan because

there's been massive indian investment in afghanistan by and obviously pulling the troops of british troops coming out. what is the relationship, would you say between your neighbor, china? well, let me say, but as far as the chinese are concerned, we had absolutely no interest in a conflict with them. we back, we have just developed trade relations at a moment. the context for many decades. there was an unprovoked chinese intrusion across the the not very well defined line of actual controller with 2 countries, the defective order in which 20 indian soldiers were killed, june early june. and that action and the accompanying chinese reinforcements of your presence. but think of as setting up a garrisons and so on across to him. others has totally given him

a lot of lot of reason, to think twice about being overtly friendly to china when china is behaving in this moment. so i would say the attentions on 11 rounds of talk to phil to persuade the chinese, to disengage from from these areas and to return to the status quo and t of april may 2020. when things were peaceful and calm and as long as the status quo is not restored, india is clearly not going to be able to come back to business as usual. and i think you will see an intensification of tensions along that front. yet until unless the chinese say, all right, let's go back to the we things what? well obviously, beijing says unilateral actions by the murder government that created the violence we saw on the line of control between the 2 nuclear power. just to finally, do you detect into people of all parties in delhi, detect

a pivot to pakistan? now that the taliban looks at by many to be running most of afghanistan, maybe by the end of this interview, what you said, i mean, we've invested treatment in dollars such as money in developing everything from huge highway that runs from that around southwest of ensuring 247, electricity to puzzle running the biggest switch at one child hospital in the country, building dams. and the ottoman building has been a huge amount of development systems. and as largest beneficiary of development assistance is about us and to see plunged back into conflict and possibly falling back in the hands of the thunderbolt level, the prospect. we obviously work understanding with the government and the elected government of russia. as far as

any government in the region is concerned, we have to recognize realities as they exist. and if indeed the valuable what if they're significant, wrote in the future running arrangement of the sun. we'd have to do a bit as far as focused on is concerned and focus on was the country. the created of about yvonne in the 990 was the longest time, the only own subsidiary of the boxes on the i sell it quite a lot of us already quite of the us and british financing finance and weapons actually and. and then of course i did a change all. busy that around and you ended up with the american threat to bomb barcas on into the stone age. and that was the end of the experiment was and let me say that we are giving up yes. on the, on the government, total president gunny and his, and his, and his people up continue to do their very best to hold out against santibanez. and they say that they are, in fact being able stephanie to hold the capitol and many other major cities in

under, under control. and that's still the recognize government, the sun around the world. so that's not right. them all just shows you are. thank you. thanks to the show, will we back on wednesday? angel? then keep in touch with us via social media, enjoying the conversation by letting us know using private surveillance firms shouldn't even exist. ah ah, ah right now there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or obese. it's possible to sell food that is fatty and sugary and faulty and addicted . not at the individual level. it's not individual willpower. and if we go on believing that will never change as obesity epidemic,

that industry has been influencing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment, ah, what's driving the every city ever them it it's corporate. me ah, the ah cobra restrictions of mandatory pos who spoke furious rally for freedom across the world. this past weekend, medics argue on the other side of it, where one person liberty begins another end. you have to balance personal choice with what's good for the most people. the end of the day life is a balance of race, and you can wrap people up in costing what the u. s. won't be investigating new york state handling of cobit 19 in nursing homes despite.