the i choose when i would show the wrong one old rule, just don't the rules. yes. to fill out this thing becomes the after kid and engagement equals the trail. when so many find themselves, well the part we choose to look for common ground in

the ah ah ah, we welcome the cross talk, they're all things considered. peter, the bill, the bike administration, tells us the world faces the star. the choice between democracy and authoritarianism. does this make any sense? the balance of power in the world system is moving to multiple r t and it's not defined. why ideological preferences dangerously. washington continues to claim it has the right to define what is the legitimate world worker.

i to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, george m u l e. in budapest, he's a podcast, or as a gaggle which can be found on youtube and locals. and here in moscow were joined by dmitri bob and she's a political analyst and editor. it's me, internet media project. gentleman cross off rules and effect, that means you can jump in anytime you want. appreciate it. okay, let's go to your turn in budapest year. it's really quite interesting out by the administration, endlessly talked about diversity, diversity diversity, and we see it in their politics domestically and now we see it since they had been to the administration pushing diversity into the international system. which actually is really quite contradictory because diversity, me, it least nominally,

is about having differences. but i think what we see here with the bio administration is an extreme form universalism. and there covering it up under diversity because it's either or, i mean, it isn't returned to the cold war, but we are returning to a cold war paradigm. it is democracy versus authoritarianism. and in that ideological mindset, a kind to make sense. but in the real world, it doesn't make any sense at all. go ahead. george. it doesn't make any sense. so there is really or, or is the difference between the diversity at home and the superficial difference because of when the, by them ministration. ologist talk about diversity, they don't actually really mean to be or view opinions. they mean, monolithic view, the world, they mean, you know, the superficial attributes, you know, the color of the skin, what gender sexual orientation is. but that's just the monolithic worldview. you

want to get into the bike ration, you have to subscribe to the doctrine, so they're not going to have a bus supposed to abuse in the administrator. and i think that now they look on the world that the rest of the world have to follow this manner, listing logical mindset. now of course, it's bringing them into compensation of his name with the rival. great. but it's also bringing them into conversation with countries that normally would be on their side. so when the obama administration goes back, obama, so when to kenya was the end of his administration. he started lecturing them about gay rights. so he was getting ready to welcome its favorite song, you know, the most, the most famous canyon in the well. and what is even where he goes or lecturing them about agonized like, and, you know,

when you're seeing the right now when the by you, which is a very involved by, in this vision, is getting itself in call with countries that are normally on their side under poland to the great great freedom fighters again, communism if you please. the worship during the call got 3 trans. yeah. and now they're, you know, demonized. why? because they're not subscribing to the western ideological moment. i lost count the number of times george used the word side, meaning choosing signs. again, this is nothing to do with diversity. it is actually a 0 sum game. and what's really quite remarkable is that russia and china are demonized as being authoritarian. but even if you accept that proposition, russia, china are not proposing in the promotion and extension of authoritarian powers.

there's no evidence about whatsoever. so this is an idea what you will struggle coming just from one side. the use the word side again, go ahead and remove your coin, cried. i think george was quite trying to fight in the examples of poland and hungary as country is, which just didn't fit the morally, the idea, logical monolith or the west. and it was interesting that president, do know, full and rosa for because he's suddenly said just a few days ago that i would you go constraints imposed by the european union. in fact, then you can constraints that were imposed by the soviet union and the other where an example is a gas done. i mean that the idea that you should educate goals before boys, you know, it just didn't go down and stuff and he couldn't. but there is no so, so,

i mean, 20 years the longest, warren american history americans are leaving, they're going to some, and i don't hear a war the self criticism. what did we do or all, it's all about the table are guns. you know, they're uneducated. you know, they are unable to so it's the same story. again, i told you said the board 0 sum game and all the sites is very important because, you know, we are trying to find out why is the situation so bad in europe? i mean, it's no worse than a 1989 or even in 1987. why did it happen? well, because of george beep, right? you're writing his article. it's a big wall, the importer, somebody most in american foreign policy article, published in the national interest. in fact, clinton even clinton and george bush. it will also support the university of

instead of diversity. that was there. i mean, i remember how clinton many times came to law school with his wife lecturing russians on the, on the benefits over american life. the problem was that you projected the immature great sympathy the want to rush. so, i mean, it's just a noxious, you know, when hillary started a chance in russia before the election in 2016 and when she was there, sexual state, bill clinton never object of even though that was basically undue. and you know what he said for many years when he was the president. so they basically impose this idea off against them. you know, instead of talking about compromise, talking about corporation in europe, it was about getting the critic west save in the former soviet republics from that authoritarian clark just over russia. i think that was the image or what was very

well presented by glen decent. our friend and shipment in the, in the crosstalk in his reach and logical on our teams website and also driven in bel, russian culture. the headline on the article. and you look at how the situation develop basically why did we have wars in the form of the former soviet union? the main reason why people have was, is when the situation presents an opportunity for nationalists. so the 1st time, the actually a saw opportunity was in the end of the service union when loan for moving, you know, in the, in, so we bought it. so people are nationalists in on me. and there isn't as they are by john f, as in georgia, just trying to the moment you know, the moment where we can redraw bonus or preserve, or the says they are, they started the worse if they could just jump in here. gimme a you're absolutely historically empirically, correct. let me move over to george here. but this all was counted as being pro

democracy in the west jokes and dba. got a spot on, you have these rabbit nationalists looking for an opportunity and then they, they, in the west in their and their underlings and the media. they wrap it all up into some kind of, you know, fluffy democratic thing. i mean, it wasn't had nothing to do with that whatsoever. go ahead. george. no, nothing is all across the paradigm of the law was of course you, the law in which the west deliberately deliberately misled the public about what was really going on in the slot in. so you have in croatia rooms been openly fashioned by open apologise. while the fashion regime in world war 2, coming to power and browsing the patriot, the raven hatred will decide which was reminiscent of what they were doing in the western media and western politician policy makers presented into some of these are

real democrats, you know, they, they then why does like a democracy, as opposed to the terrible people in belgrade pro russian row come in, all these terrible goes this, the game, you know, the model to be used elsewhere. you know, so somebody meant the big present game as a democrat. and then the gaining ukraine will also be on the nationalist crashes, the biologist, a present that as democrats in the west. and so if you tell them, well, this guy, you know, this is yara sh, you know, he's a sort of a sort of like big right? and that's the west places. so, you know, they sold these nationalist islamic in a number of days that as useful goals for destroying yugoslavia

and weakening, racially read in russia and presented them as liberals and democrats. it's really interesting team and said, you know, again, we have this kind of false choice or false binary is that if you want more reform and democracy, you must be pro western an anti russian. i mean, why can't you be pro reform and pro democracy and still be pro russia? of course i'm talking about peer ruth. ok. they're creating these artificial divisions that are, are completely unnecessary and do not exist in real life. go ahead. well, i think going d some presented where you wow, in his article that i mentioned last test driven in russian circus, he writes that the basically directions have to make this choice between europe and russia and in the same way, ukrainians cage, to make the choice. i remember how the control over association agreement with the spot that it started in 2003,

when president coach mart joined the joint economic space with russia. immediately, one of the european commissioners to wiggle. he came to, you said you have a choice, you know, if you stay in the joint economic space, say good bye to that your membership, it will never be offered to you. so the ukrainians were put before the same choice . the, the west is now forcing the bell russians to make and blend decent is very right that this was the reason for the conflict on the was in the former soviet union, democracy de mer. yeah, i mean it's, it's amazing. the west might forcefully 70 countries that perform a survey to public's and the woman language colon, his great common religion with russian by separating them from russia. the west prepares, the turf for seaman, wasn't making your grain of confidence and coming back to what they just said. you

know, the 1st way will was. so it was, it was in that late age as early ninety's, when mountains were moving in the soviet union and all this could be redrawn. you know, let me give you the example of georgia nationalists. they decide that the, this is the moment to take the land from the minority just from their projects from their agents. they're terrible 1st president gun. so try to do it. and he failed. and i must, there was at the west change because the west had the gods to condemn gums and they can make one when they found mr. so we go to a short break break. we'll continue our discussion and some real new stay with our ah ah, ah, the either

financial survival guide. stacey, let's learn about fill out. let's say i'm a show i get any or i'm grief based on the site walk 3 prod. thank you for helping ah. enjoy that right. fell out that way. ah, welcome back. across all things considered, peter, this is a home addition and to remind you were discussing some real news. ah, ah, okay, let's go back to jim in moscow here. when we went to a quick break here, you want to finish up your point. go ahead. so some of the 1st wave off boss,

so it was, was in the ninety's, the by the 1994. the situation stabilized, you know, the tools was find in the car box georgians for some time. stop their attacks against pardons and seconds and then the restart them in 2008. well i guess we'll try to retake. so why did you do that? why did the 2nd way? we'll see more more stuff in the form. 17 because georgia and ukraine were promised to membership in bucharest. so the nationalists decided here comes the unity again . you know, we had the opportunity in the early 90 s, late ages from the storage unit was integrating. we just did, but most of the food stamps. now comes the 2nd. and we've had the conflicts in caramark. and we kind of the civil war in ukraine. basically in the, you know, the reason was need to express and you know, because need to,

expression gave an impression of creating a new job, political religion and you up and you need you to enter ration that's in the form. so again, that's just that it's create a, creating a choice of either or and when you have country of good parts of ukraine, historically traditionally culture. you look towards russia arrows the same, but they have to make this pact with the devil, george. ok. and it is the, you know, what the, the title of this program, it's ideological instability because it's ideology. all it does is great stability . yes, yes, that's it. and of course it was always the goal to scoop up. all of these are all of the countries that had been aligned with the soviet union. the was so back and those weren't align such as you saw the scoop them all up with a native and group of all of the republics of the former soviet union also within

native that was always the goal. and so they use this ology of freedom and democracy to present it as if somehow these countries, you know, they want to be free, russian influence, you know, there are to, you know, they're, they're fighting for freedom. and here we are, you know, the west coming to their assistance. but in reality, as the point though, you know, these are countries who have distinct history, the national interest, distinct cultural relationships with russia. they don't have any interest in being scooped up within nato, which apart from anything else, is leading them into perilous conflict while they're in georgia and the same. what does it prove to be in ukraine? i mean, it's never been thoughtfully explained, has been, you can want to have more transparency in your government. you want to have

a government that respects rights, basic rights that are expected around the world. but you have to but to have that you have to be anti russian. it never made any sense to me whatsoever. want to change gears a little bit. you know, you said you focused on europe, but i think you're absolutely right. but not mistaken fema. russia has good relations with japan, south korea, philippines. all. i mean they, there are no issues there. it's only in europe. ok. but then again, when you shifted to the east, there's a top prosy versus democracy argument called. why don't i think that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. it's only focused on europe at this point in time. go ahead. well, the night the states use the same argument against china. i mean it's, it's terrible. in the last few decades, china has been many and ties with japan, you know, there was a trail april meeting on the president. so in japan,

south korea and china just recently, things seem to be moving up, you know, looking up. and now the united states says o chinese, so gracious in south china sea or chinese, so aggressive east china sea. and they even don't look at the job names that are actually close to china. you are right. you know, i think that the problem with much deeper than just 40 and 40 see all of the systems use certain frame. yes. southern weaknesses or the nation that the control, the not is used, germans pension for collectivism, and for collective sacrifice, some things in the same way. now the american authorities just are using these st demand in america. america is a nation of immigrants, and people in america, melville describe the play well and you won't be calm and liberate the world, destroy the tyrants, you know, destroy this table way, which is a symbol of evil,

right? so the authority gets into another space. i use very clearly and it's very interesting, you know, in his article george be gold, jeff k, you know, kennedy, i'm like, wilson was called on making the world safe for democracy. can he just said make the world say for diversity? and that's very, that's a very important distinction. you know, and i think that the moment in the early years, we were very close doing you agreement between the soviet union and the united states. that would save a lot of lives and effort. you know, georgia of cannon wrote about it by the field because again, it got killed and, you know, other people came to power. but in general, i think it should be the flow. when do they want to avoid another world war? we need to make the world safe for them and diversity, georgia and in the important thing is that for a stable, international order,

all the major stakeholders have to see the international order is being legitimate . but the ideology coming out of on steroids now from the, by the ministration, is that, you know, if you do not participate in, asked in the international system as we deem then you weren't illegitimate after. and if you deem a major power like russian chinese not being legitimate, then the order itself cannot be legitimate because you're denying them being stakeholders. yes, and that's why the russians repeatedly emphasized the united nations charter and the united nations as a whole, as the very basis of the international system. and the reason they do is that we created this some of the security council in which the great powers are given a veto. in other words, we have a mechanism in place in which way where we get into issues in which great power

interests are line. the great right to veto and that created these, the stability that was absent in the league of nations because it was, you know, you could say ok, you know, you know, no one can do anything that will threaten the interest of so the union rush, no one's going to think that will threaten the interest of china and so on. so that was the, that was why the united nations has worked where the league of nations failed because the great li live, there's nothing in it for me. i mean, i don't, i don't know and that's why what the west is talking about the rules based all the is simply on the, you know, arbitrary rules that the nato power just cobbled together at any particular moment to justify what they do and to demonize the delivery of the lives. what was great

about china and russia, you know, we don't going to find the on the list where you set the rules and we are held to be a violation of the interesting georgia is that, remember samantha power, she lamented. russia's use of the beat, and it's really quite incredible i would say to samantha power, it shows the system works because that's how it was supposed to work with. that was a whole point. that's why they put that in the veto. they don't want to do what they, why in the league of nations. you know, that failed. so we can't do this again. you know, if you know this, this, this in hiding behind the close of democracy. but, well, let's look at the record yugoslavia. let's look at the rack. let's look at syria afghan, and then we go on and on. i mean, it's really quite incredible this, this idea logical offensive. his garnered very little against. okay. and

in failure every single time. and we have, we have the, by the ministration actually doubling down on it. and as you just pointed out in the 1st part of the program, no introspection whatsoever. why it didn't work. go ahead. well you're right locally didn't fail spectacularly in the, in libya or in a game where it's obvious. but it also failed the former soviet union. i mean the idea that america jordan, a demon, it's all right. the idea that western interference can help you more chrissy is absolutely counterproductive. glenn decent shows it very well in his article at the opinion website. basically, the majority of the russians on law for law, school, or even phone, or, you know, most kids, the least popular person. they're looking for someone who could replace and go and

preserve time with russia. someone like barber eco, but the west, the narrative is out in only 200 k, you know, the, that's the problem with, with the military and i would just, they have only one of them can do that. they have only one area and you know, so that out in the colonels, that's very counter productive. you know, when dance economies start was working badly when you have a role in the money and outside interference is in lockets relations. and that's exactly what happened in beller was in your grain because western influences. that's what happened in russia regarding the sky. what have don't from the political scene back in the early 9, just if there was real competition, you know, not impeded by west on the financial injections on because the west has been helping lindsay and there he stays there because he opens the controls some of these might close, right. so, and talking about relations between conscious,

you said europe and asia, well basically similar processes in europe. you know, there were 2 attitudes, one, you know, be strong against russia. the other one, represented by the brand and the others negotiate with russia. and the bronze strategy worked in asia again. there were 2 approaches. mon, the japanese one is like stand for, you know, until you see the islands, no peace treaty. and then there was the chinese or did you negotiate? be cramped, you know, corporate and the chinese ovarian worked. while the japanese, you know, they just, they, what they are 60 years or 7080 years later, they just stay wherever they are. so these entered, it also doesn't work with russia. this control last word here, i mean as far as the west fixation on, because once they pick their candidate, that's what they called diversity. ok, i'm going to have to, in my one thing my guess in budapest and here in moscow. and i think be worth

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