of the un shushing through to discuss what the accusations against israeli spyware firm and assuming for indian global democracy. thank you so much for coming back on before we get to the spying allegations. how are you? i understand that you're recovering from co video in the hospital for a short time. i mean, a you okay. i know that the but capital raises much worse here in britain than in india. that's right. no, it wasn't pleasant. i had what they call a long code and there was a complication of something called coded induce virus. my license, which gave me a wrong key outrage sort of it would go down to 30 some warnings and to talk to you know, $120.00 or under a couple of hours later. so that was the reason. yeah. it was the challenge. but apparently it's not known and cases of covered and after awhile into the rex itself, which it seems to be in the process of doing because i've been back out of nowhere schedule for a couple of weeks 10 days. and i'm not feeling particularly particular

arabic. so let's say that these are going, all right, so, and you've been double vaccinated. i mean, how long the doctor saying this last because obviously other people watching this want to know as well. well, i mean, you know, thing about long as you never knew who conditions i can reach. and once it's finished, you never really know how long it can last. so there's no question that as far as my own case is concerned, i was largely operating out of bed for about 22 months, maybe even 2 and a half. there are people who, as long as 6 or 8 months off to be attacked by the virus, have actually complained about cheating, for example, a stream. so t, you believe the double vaccination helped? i think it could have been much worse without so i'm strongly advocating vaccination for everybody. in my case, i've just taken 2nd vaccine less than

a week before symptoms of coverage. so it's possible that the 2nd vaccine didn't really have time to do its work in the body and generate the necessary anti bombs. but having said that, there's no question that it could have been very much and have a wonderful the vaccination. who knows where i'd be sitting and talking to today to go out and vaccinate people that you are watching. well, you certainly have been politically active in the past few days. are the chairman of the information technology stand committee there in india? what have you made of the allegations for the moody government has been using this in israeli intelligence surveillance software on congress party politicians when it's in general, the serious challenge of course, because you know, the, the software according to the company that retails and it is only available to, to governments there, and we sell it to governance, what they call better governance on the basis of care and from the israeli

government to talk of a serious fab meant to be used to track criminals and terrorists. they say whether it's been deployed against domestic political opponents. it's gross misuse of debt spends money for one thing. and it's also illegal in terms of indian law because we do permit interception by law and also intersection of communications. but these are only for very specified purposes. to deal with national security as well as the commission on the prevention of the commission of crime. you can just intercept and certainly can get permission to intercept for political advantage. so that's the thing, the government appears to be same, that is new in any of these up of these claims. and that is so then the matter becomes serious and a very different way, which is then a foreign government must have a deployed this software against people in india in public life. and surely that's

worthy of a full and detailed investigation as well. so i've been calling for an independent judicial investigation into these charges and do establish exactly what happened, how this was allowed to happen, to some phones of people who have been infected and see when they have been infected and, and where the waiver should need for us the biggest concern is obviously the potential assaults on the foundations of our democracy. and what's been the response from the mo, the government? well, the government should the statement in each house follow saying that it's on a stolen a teacup and that has been no, but i mean, to request your request for a judicial investigation. they haven't addressed it. and in fact, i'm sure that some of the victims, because you know, about 10 indians have phones that have been proven to have been infiltrated by the

biggest spyware. i think because of that these people will, in fact be likely to approach support possibly the supreme court asking for judicial inquiry as well. so whether the government, what a move under, for example, what's for the commissions of inquiry at all whether the supreme court take independent action. we do believe a judicial inquiry would be the most effective way of getting to the bottom. i mean, on the, on the other hand, moody is perhaps the individual with one of the greatest electoral democratic mandates on earth surveillance of a few phones. what is that going to do to your electoral processes? i understand that their allegations of electoral officials as part of the spyware hack. well, they, you know, if the government did it, and this is precisely what many people i'd say,

it's the kind of incredibly unnecessary inclusion into the olympic, the life of the person lives of individuals that really marks out an autocratic tendency in what ought to be a democratic government, you're right. remedy, mandated crushing majority in parliament. and the mr. movies, popularity ratings continue to write. why would he need to do each? and yet the list of targets do not look like a kind of miss that would be a particular interest to some foreign government who presumably far more interested in our army or our intelligence. or indeed those ministers in the government themselves, rather than opposition. politicians, journalists, covering political regions just reach and human rights actors. so then the debate numbers on this visual base appear to be people on the governor's,

not terribly happy with, rather than of people that foreign governments want to intrude. and this is why the, the concern is why are you doing this and doing to realize what you're doing is against the law. the law doesn't nature to intercept for any reasons other than those specified in the walls. and the law doesn't permit you to hack other people's devices anyway and infiltrate malware into any computer, the computerized device or source using us apps, no language in 2000 i. t at the fact is that all of this is really what is writing up space, right? now the bottom and has been disrupted for a couple of days by opposition and demanding and inquiry. and the governments i'll see in the future, you implemented discussion of this month as resulted in, in a huge disruption of parliamentary discussion and

a suspension repeated the germans apollo. so it hasn't been hasn't been a particularly good reach for the government any well yeah. and the supposed to be on this list, 50000 names. it's rocking different governments around the well, we don't have the full list of the $50000.00 and so says it's just like the white pages shouldn't be taking that much notice. but then you just said people the government on that happy with you, saying that movie isn't happy with his own team in the vash. because vacation or because he's on the list, isn't the way would motivate bugging his own id minister. well, 1st of all, bugging though if whatever you can call it, snooping took place 2 years before the person was even in the upper house parliament. it's been been possible verification procedure to see if there was anything going wrong that would destroy the government from offering the season, the upper house followed by serial. so you know, that can be multiple moves that you can,

you can check the so nothing opposition member because you want to find out what they're up to you to check the phone campaign manager of the spring or chief minister because want to know what inspector saw in the election campaign, and you could check the form of a prospective minister because you want to see whether there's anything you want to know about him before you give him a seat in the upper house. all of them are generally a senior. so motivations can be very, yeah, well, as i said, the moody government categorically denied, but you know about all this stuff because you were under secretary general of the united nations. what did you make when you found out that george w bush was bugging your office? i mean i think we all accept that that. busy is all of the set them up surveillance as part of the normal international. should we say security operations?

every country seeks intelligence on every other? this is more theory as a coffee, and this is joining the run up to the iraq war. and this is the office of the secretary general united nations. all i'm saying is very often, many of us in public office conduct ourselves on the assumption that we may be eavesdropped upon. it's a different method when you're talking about instructing and domestics, which fits. i think anybody dealing with the issues of international doroty, including war and peace, will have to assume there is a certain level of interest. after all, we know about the famous cation which president obama ministration bomb, chancellor merkel. so, president recess and brazil. so you, there's a question that these things happen even happened between allies and friends. so the question is, when you extend this practice to domestic politics, you're doing

a number of things that are both illegal and on. if you are actually using taxpayers money to promote the bosses that political advantage of one party which happens to be and to distort or otherwise in a democracy is meant to be a level playing field between different sets of political opinions in your country . to my mind, that is in some ways, more disturbing than the old cloak and dagger a james bond kinds of stuff that governments have been playing with each other and against each other. since i know more well, the israeli company say, as you said, that is it goes to vetted governments, but i don't know. i mean, is there a possibility there are some indians that are very wealthy indeed. i think you have more billionaires than we do here in britain. good, a private individual rather than the modi government, as you suggest, be responsible. if the company itself, enemy is really government,

will be sent to government. i gather the spyware is treated as a military and is really low. and i don't see how you been in the shall stop you there more for assessing, for all of a short break. i. oh, my god, ministration tells us the world days is the star choice between democracy and authoritarianism. business make any sense. the balance of power in the world system is moving to multicultural. t and is not defined by audiological preferences. in my phone, i 60 and i don't i just

saw up dollar format isis fighters, and they're now boarding a philippine naval ship with $900.00 jeff, aren't abdulla still don't know who was waiting for them and i didn't actually get a hold of me . i welcome back. i'm still here discussing democracy privacy and ben demik with

one of the great volunteer and right is wilma. i'm the secretary general of the un charging you have no objection though, to surveillance being used against criminals itself. i don't know if look, i mean, you know, frankly if people unfortunately in this world of us resort to setting off bombs in crowded market places and that's all i think we in every democracy counter not security forces to keep innocent civilians. and if during that requires them sniffing around to see the kinds of people who might be tempted to set off bombs and listening to their conversations. i do believe that most people would understand i did all countries. in any case, it's permitted by law. we have the telegraph act of the british give us an 885, and we have the information technology act of 2000, both of which are made interceptions and grounds of national security. sovereign do security of india and so on. so terrorism and criminal activity,

i think no one would really object, even most democracies to the government having the right to, to intercept communications and quote, a course maybe that rely a great life when it comes to hacking. because as i say, the introduction of a virus or malware is illegal in india and under indian law. and there will be another kind of loss. and if that's the technique you use, then you all can actually guilty as charged because there's even a penalty specified of 3 years in prison and 5 like $500000.00 something. we're just only recursive about that because you can then allow surveillance of those doing the surveillance obviously, because that would be criminal act. i mean, julian assigns is in jail here in london. it's thanks to him. we know about mass surveillance, perhaps massive valence on the offices in new york when you were there. and he,

of course, helped edward snowden escaped the moscow. but in a foreign government considers someone criminal then they can presumably use the valence software against them anywhere in the world. i mean unit, you can accept that joe biden. ministration is, is trying to extradite federally. the search will look it's a very complicated issue. and each of us as private individuals, values are privacy and does not particularly want to give anybody a free pass. but we also convinced of our own metric. we know we're not going to set bombs in anybody or do any, any harm to society or the merge. and therefore we feel that righteously that the government shouldn't be going after us. but if tomorrow such a bomb was set off, i think people will go ahead and turn around. busy and asked, what was the govern doing security agencies? the police 3 for the switch, while people were walking and planning to do bad things. so i think that's

a whole different exception. the pegasus scandal is about the misuse of a software which these makers claim can be used as intended to be used against criminals and terrorists being applied and said to people who are not criminals and terrace pursuing their political activities. and often that on their own comes not just political by the journalist about hockey journalists on the indian. well, we'll have to see whether an inquiry is a institute back to corona virus in the, or is the center a global center vaccine production. is it a bit like what happened in the glorious empire, your book extraction of the wealth of india, that the vaccines are going to countries outside india west are not going to the indian population. fortunately, some things have changed. for example, in itself is the world's largest manufacturer, vaccines,

60 percent off the world's vaccines. pre kobe were made in india, or the small box, all of that stuff that you know back to. but there are certainly some russian and quantities in the way in which we find that couple of countries, the only countries which have managed vaccination, more than half populations once in some cases, priced are develop rich countries. whereas boss parts of the african continent and many, many areas of the world have have reached very few people. indeed in india, i think it's 5.5 percent of our population that i'm actually so we are looking at a certain event, injustice, and the following visit. for some child is that nobody in the world is really safe . as long as some people are. i'm sick. because even if you vaccination against all known barriers today in england and vaccination,

african version of the virus could come in and let you know more. so what you want to do, what interest up manage is for every country to have a majority of its citizens vaccination, so that the virus is not able to spread that easily to your attention to further dangerous variance. already making considerable and way down the greek element or the alpha gamma epsilon lambda, and don't survive, this is all very, it's a big part of all around. and that's more company. so we really do. i think we are behaving somewhat tied to the and i would urge the international community as often requesting that it doesn't often behave as if there's a community to come together and make sure that everybody is effectively able to be vaccination. as you know, there is the kovacs initiative hasn't failed, hasn't failed. well, let's put it this way,

hasn't succeeded so far. and part of the reason is precisely because it hasn't received funds and it hasn't been able to make significant dent all install, get audience, which is the developing world. now why do you think you're in london and brussels or opposing jo biden's intellectual property waiver? the presumably would be, would allow in his massive vaccination manufacture infrastructure to create as many vaccines as they want. didn't just spread it freely across india. why? why does even the united states try to do something and is opposed by the intellectual talking to watching over as well. and i think everyone respects the fact that those who actually done the research and come up with these vaccines is that applause and royalties and everything else. but at the same time for missing the manufacturer is imperative in imperative need of humanity. and i'm sure i'm at a loss. busy to justify you stand in this matter. certainly,

what about procedural safeguards they want before from the manufacturer of european devised vaccines in other countries can be instituted, but to not permit the licensing at all is extremely difficult to justify morally ethically and, and as i said practically because up tomorrow, the countries you failed to vaccinate can come back and in fact you now in the are obviously has more poverty than the whole of sub saharan africa put together. but now they're saying hundreds of millions of being pushed into poverty by corona virus. what is the extent that you are seeing the well, that's better because obviously the, the economic impact of buyers has been as devastating as the else we estimated to have something like 314, i think about 3 point $4000000.00 to $4900000.00,

accessed this extra step to the way of saying that that's that we would add in the normal yeah, multiple codes. so you can attribute the bulk of these debts to koby. that's been a lot of colossal setback. but in addition to and that's obviously in many cases and read, so supporters and their families, there's also been thanks to lock down just company measures a tremendous slowing down of the economy and as a result, unemployment and yesterday is the highest levels ever reported. and the, the challenge we are facing is that our people are jumping once again below the poverty line. we'd be proud of saying that for about 15. yes, we had about 10000000 people rising above the poverty line. thanks to, thanks to the very system on the measures following the liberalization of 991 of

our economy. if a $150000000.00 people therefore came law middle us, it's quite conceivable that the vast majority of them have drunk back out of the middle, plus and below the poverty 9. once i can save you, i guess the view is in beijing watching this, scratching their heads. i've been celebrating a 100 years of the chinese communist by the and bringing 810000000 people out of poverty compared to your figures of 10000000 before go it. well, i think the communist chinese ways away or indeed anybody else does. i suspect we have, they have their own track record and we admire what for that's not something that's not easily metrical, but anywhere else. and in india as a democracy, kind of rather talk down decree kinds of change. that appointment is china as been able to institute. it's simply not available. it hasn't been so far.

we've been able to bring about change in progress has been gradual. but it's for people along with us. and we have been able, as i said to people last poverty. now we have a lot. busy with catch up again, the one the was most staring images of ideas was that of families to, to barry or premier said did. losing the officers of their loved ones down the room . a gun got the only a gun that because they couldn't disposable bondage. i mean, that is something that's absolutely horrendous, but it's, it's a stock, a mess up for how, how badly has done in this and how much people have suffered. well, i should ask, what are your relations with china? what is india's relations with china? obviously, this comes to a, for some have said that the india and china last meet in afghanistan because there's been massive indian investment in afghanistan by obviously pulling the troops of british troops coming out. what is the relationship,

would you say between your neighbor china? well, let me see, but as far as the chinese are concerned, we had absolutely no interest in a conflict with them. we fact we have consistently developed trade relations at a moment, the context for many decades. and there was an unprovoked chinese intrusion across the not very well defined line of action control. 2 countries the defective order in which 20 indian soldiers were killed, june early june. and that action and the accompanying chinese reinforcements are present being of as trip setting up a garrisons and so on across to him. others certainly give him a lot of lot of reason to think twice about being overtly from china when china is behaving in this moment. so i would say the attentions 11

rounds of talk to film to persuade the chinese, to disengage from from these areas and to return to the status quo and t of april may 2020. when things were peaceful and calm and as long as the student was not restored, india is clearly not going to be able to come back to business as usual. and i think you will see an intensification of tensions along that frontier until unless the chinese say alright, let's go back to the we things what? well, obviously, managing says unilateral actions by the murder government that created the violence we saw on the line of control between the 2 nuclear power. just to finally do you detect and do people of all parties in delhi detect a pivot to pakistan? now that the taliban looks at by many to be running most of afghanistan,

maybe by the end of this interview, what you said, i mean, we've invested in dollars such as money in developing everything from huge highway that runs from than around to southwest of ensuring 247, electricity to puzzle running the biggest switch at one child hospital in the country, building dams and the ottoman building. there's been a huge amount of development systems, indiana's largest beneficiary of development assistance is about us and to see plunged back into some thinking, possibly falling back into the hands of the thunderbolt level, the prospect we obviously work into understanding with the government and the elected government of russia, as far as any government in the region is concerned, we have to recognize realities as the exist. and if indeed the valuable what if they're significant, wrote in the future routing arrangement of the sun. we'd have to do

a bit as far as focused on is concerned, and parkerson was the country that created the bottom. the 1990, said was the longest time, the only own subsidiary of the buy for sunny i sell it quite a lot of us already right in the us and british financing weapons, finance and weapons actually and and then of course 90 the change all. busy that around and you ended up with the american threat to bomb parker saw into the stone age. and that was the end of that experiment was and let me say that we are giving up yes. on the, on the guns total president gunny and his, and his, and his people up continue to do their very best of all that against santibanez. and they say that they are, in fact being able stephanie to the capitol and many other major cities under, under official control. and that's the recognize government on around the world. so

that's not right them off just shows you are. thank you. thanks to the show, will we back on wednesday, angel? then keep in touch with us via social media, enjoying the conversation by letting us know using private surveillance firms shouldn't exist. ah ah, welcome to maximize or financial survival guide. looking forward to your benefits. this is what happened the benches in britain. it was kaiser report when i would show the wrong, why don't i just don't the rules. yes. to see out the thing because the after an engagement equals the trail. when so

many find themselves world apart, we choose to look for common ground in the restrictions and mandatory policies. furious rallies of freedom around the world, medics and argue that where one person is liberty begins another and you have to balance personal choice with what's good for the most people at the end of the day . like it's about a brain, you can't wrap people up in caution will for united states won't prob new york state handling of coping despite accusations of deliberately under counting deaths . we hear from grieving families.