hearing is this make any sense? the balance of power in the world system is moving to multiple r a t and is not defined by audiological preferences. me the news. the news i'm action or attention and you're watching a special episode of going underground, looking at privacy war colonialism in pandemic through the lens of the world's largest democracy. india is allegations of spying on political opponents rocker the

moody government after the so called pegasus leeks. i'm joined now by one of india's most famous politicians and intellectuals, former under secretary general of the un shushing through it to discuss what the accusations against israeli spyware firm and assuming for indian global democracy. thank you so much for coming back on before we get to the spying allegations. how are you? i understand that you're recovering from co video in the hospital for a short time. i mean a you okay. i know that the per capita rate is much worse here. in britain than in india. that's right. no, it wasn't pleasant. i had what they call long coven. those a complication of something on coded induce vital bio cars, which gave me a wrong key outrage. sort of, it would go down to 30 some warnings and choose up to, you know, $120.00 or under a couple of us nature. so that was the reason there was the challenge. but apparently it's not known in cases of covalent while it to the next it's just would

you seems to be in the process of doing because i've been back, i know we're scheduled for 10 days and i'm not feeling particularly particular arabic. so let's say that things are going, all right, so, and you've been double vaccinated. i mean, how long the doctor saying this last because obviously other people watching this one to know as well. well, i mean, you know, think about long as you never knew who we can issue out and once you never really know how long it can last. so there's no question that as far as my own case is concerned, i was largely operating out of bed for about 22 months, maybe even 2 and a half. there are people who, as long as 6 or 8 months off to be attacked by the virus, have actually complained about cheating. for example, it streams to keep you believe the double vaccination helped. i think it could have

been much worse without so i'm strongly advocating vaccination for everybody. in my case, i've just taken the 2nd vaccine less than a week before symptoms, a bit of coverage. so it's possible that the 2nd vaccine didn't really have time to do its work in the body and generate the necessary antibodies. but having said that, there's no question that it could have been very much watch and that if it went to the vaccination, who knows where i'd be sitting and talking to you today to go out and vaccinate people that you are watching. well, you certainly have been politically active in the past few days. you're the chairman of the information technology standing committee there in india. what have you made of the allegations that the moody government has been using this in israeli intelligence surveillance software on congress party politicians. general the serious charge of course, because you know, the, the software according to the company retails, it is only available to,

to government the sell it to government, what they call better governance on the basis of care and from the israeli government. so it's obviously a very serious to have meant to be used to track criminals in general, they say whether it's been deployed against domestic political bones. it's gross misuse of dec spend money for one thing. and it's also illegal in terms of the law because we do permit interception by law and also intersection of communications. but these are only for very specified purposes to do with national security, as well as the commission on the prevention of the commission of crime. you can just intercept and certainly can get permission to dissent for political advantage . so that's the thing the government appears to be saying that is new in any of these up of these claims. and if that is so, then the matter becomes serious and

a very different website, which is then a foreign government must have deployed this software against people, an indian public life. and surely that's worthy of a full and detailed investigation as well. so i've been calling for an independent tradition investigation into these charges and do establish exactly what happened, how this was allowed to happen, to some phones of people who have been infected and see whether they have been inspected and, and where the waiver should need for us the biggest concern is obviously the potential assaults on the foundations of all the markers. and what's been the response from the movie government? well, the government has issued a statement to each host follow saying that it's on a stolen antique up. and that has been no, but i mean, to request your request for a judicial investigation they haven't addressed as and in fact,

i'm sure that some of the victims because you know, about 10 indians have phones that have been proven to have been infiltrated by the biggest spyware, i think because of that, these people will, in fact, be likely to approach the courts, possibly the supreme court asking for judicial inquiry as well. so whether the government, what a move under, for example, what's for the commissions of inquiry at all whether the supreme court itself or jake independent action we do believe a judicial inquiry would be the most effective way of getting to the bottom. i mean, on the, on the other hand, modi is perhaps the individual with one of the greatest electoral democratic mandates on earth surveillance of a few phones. what is that going to do to your electoral process? as i understand that there are allegations of electoral officials as part of the

spyware hack. well, you know, if the government did it, and this is precisely what many people say, it's the kind of incredibly unnecessary inclusion into the olympic, the life of the lives of individuals that really marks out an autocratic tendency and want to be a democratic government. you're right, overwhelming monday to crushing majority in parliament and the mr. movies, popularity ratings continue to write. why would he need to do each? and yet the list of targets do not look like a kind of list that would be a particular interest to some foreign government who presumably far more interested in our army or our intelligence. or indeed those ministers in the government themselves, rather than opposition. politicians, journalists covering political regions,

journalist beach and human rights activists. so that the numbers on the station base appear to be of people on the governor's, not terribly happy with, rather than of people that foreign governments want to intrude in. and this is why the, the concern is why nephew doing this and doing to realize what you're doing is against the law. the law doesn't nature to intercept for any reasons other than those specified in the logs and the law doesn't permit you to hack other people's devices anyway and infiltrate malware into any computer. the computerized device or source using us apps, no language. 2000 i t at the fact is that all of this is really what is writing up space right now. bottom and has been disrupted for a couple of days by opposition and demanding and inquiry and the governments i'll

see in the fusion you implemented discussion of the mom as resulted in the, in the huge destruction of bottom entry discussion and a suspension repeated the germans apollo so it hasn't been hasn't been a particularly good week for the government any. well, yeah. gone the supposed to be on this less than $50000.00 names. it's rocking different governments around the well, we don't have the full list of the $50000.00 and so says it's just like the white pages shouldn't be taking that much notice. but then you just said people the government on that happy with you saying that movie isn't happy with his own. i team in the vash, because vacation all because well, he's on the list is in the why would moody bugging his own it minister? well, 1st of all, bugging or whatever even call it snooping, took place 2 years before the person was even in the upper house parliament. it's been possible verification procedure to see if there was anything going wrong that

would destroy the government offering the season. the upper house followed by serial. so you know, that can be multiple most. you can, you can check the, so nothing opposition member. because you want to find out there are you to check the phone of the campaign manager of the spring or chief minister because wants to know what effect you saw in the election campaign. and you can check the form of a prospective minister because you want to see whether there's anything you want to know about him before you give him a seat in the house to follow them potentially. so motivations can be yeah, well, as i said, the moody government categorically denied, but you know about all this stuff because you were on the secretary general of the united nations. what did you make when you found out that george w bush was bugging your office? i mean i think we all accept that that. busy is probably a certain surveillance as part of the normal international

should we say security apparatus, every country, seat intelligence on every other visit. this is more theory, the coffee and this is joining the run up to the iraq war. and this is the office of the secretary general united nations. all i'm saying is that very often, many of us in public office conduct ourselves on the assumption that we may be eavesdropped upon. it's a different method when you're talking, lighting, shopping, and domestics of space. i think anybody dealing with issues of international doroty, including war and peace, we'll have to assume that there is a certain level of interest after all, we know about the famous case which present the bars of ministration. bomb, chancellor, merkel and president recess and brazil. so you, there's

a question that these things happen even happened between allies and friends. so the question is, when you extend this practice to domestic politics, you're doing a number of things that are both illegal and on. if you are actually using taxpayers money to promote the bosses, then for little advantage of one party which happens to be and to distort otherwise in a democracy is meant to be a level playing field between different sets of political opinions in your country . to my mind, that is in some ways, more disturbing than the old cloak and dagger a james bond kinds of stuff that governments have been playing with each other and against each other. since i know more well, the israeli company say, as you said, that is it goes to vetted governments, but i don't know. i mean, is there a possibility there are some indians that are very wealthy indeed. i think you have more billionaires than we do here in britain. good,

a private individual rather than the moody government, as you suggest, be responsible. if the company itself envies really government will be sent to governments, i gather that the spyware is treated as a going to treat on the is really low. and i don't see how anybody could acquire shortly. i'll stop you there. more precisely, for all of a short break, i, the driven by adrenal shaped person in me who dares thing we dare to ask me

ah welcome back. i'm still here discussing democracy privacy and van demik with one of the great politicians and writers, wilma, and the secretary general of the un charging. you have no objection though, to surveillance being used against criminals itself. look, i mean, you know, frankly if people unfortunately in this world of us resort to setting off bombs in crowded market places and that's all i think we in every democracy counter not security forces to keep innocent civilians. and if during that requires them sniffing around to see the kinds of people who might be tempted to set off bombs

and listening to their conversations. i do believe that most people would understand i did all countries case in any case, it's permitted by law. we have the telegraph act of the british give us an 885, and we have the information technology act of 2000, both of which are made interceptions and grounds of national security, the sovereignty security of india and so on. so terrorism and criminal activity, i think no one would really object, even the most democracies to the government having the right to, to intercept communications. and these are, quote unquote, maybe that relying grid line when it comes to hacking. because as i say, the introduction of a virus or malware is illegal in india and on the indian law. and it may well be another kind of laws. and if that's the technique you use, then you are potentially guilty as charged because in all this, you're going to

a penalty specified a 3 is in prison and 5 like 500000, something recursive about that because you can then allow surveillance of those doing the surveillance, obviously, because that would be a criminal act. i mean, julian assange is in jail here in london. it, thanks to him. we know about mass surveillance, perhaps mass surveillance on the offices in new york when you were there. and he of course, helped edward snowden escape to moscow. but the foreign government considers someone criminal then they can presumably use the valence software against them anywhere in the world. i mean, you need, you can accept joe biden. ministration is trying to expedite the julian search. will look it's a very complicated issue and each of us as private individuals, values are privacy and does not particularly want to give anybody a free pass. but we also convinced of our own veteran,

we know we're not funding to set how bombs and anybody else or do any, any harm to society or the public at large. and therefore we feel that righteousness that the government shouldn't be going off to us. but if tomorrow such a bomb was off, i think people will go ahead and turn around and off. what was the government doing with security agencies? the police switch, while people were planning to do bad things. so i think that's a whole different exception, like pegasus scandal is about the misuse of a software, which these makers claim can be used as intended to be used against criminals and terrorists being applied and said to people who unlocked animals and terrace, but pursuing their political activities and often that and their own and not just political by the generalist. you've got about 40 jo, which on damien, on the list. well, we'll have to see whether an inquiry is a institute back to corona virus. india is the center

a global center vaccine production. is it a bit like what happened in the glorious empire, your book, extraction of the wealth of india, that the vaccines are going to countries outside india whilst are not going to the indian population? fortunately, some things have changed, for example, in itself is the world's largest, that if manufacturer vaccine 60 percent off the world's vaccines pre kobe were made in india or the small box, all of that stuff that you know back to. but there are certainly some russian qualities in the way in which we find that couple of countries, the only countries which have managed vaccination more than offset populations at once. in some cases, christ all developed rich countries. whereas boss parts of the african continent, many, many areas of the world have have reached they see people indeed in india,

i think it's 5.5 percent of our population that i'm actually so we are looking at a certain evident injustice and the folly of it for some child is that nobody in the world is really safe. as long as some people are, i'm sick because even if you vaccinated against all known barriers today in england and vaccination, african version of the virus could come in and let you know more. so what you want to do, what interest of manage is for every country to have a majority of its citizens vaccination so that the virus is not able to spread that easily to mutation, to further dangerous variance. already making considerable and way down the greek alphabet or the alpha gamma epsilon lambda, and survive. this is all very, it's a big part of all around and small company. so we really do,

i think we are behaving somewhat tied to the and i would urge the international community as often, requests. it doesn't often behave as if there's a community to come together and make sure that everybody is effectively able to be vaccination. as you know, there is the kovacs initiative hasn't failed, hasn't failed. well, let's put it this way, haven't succeeded so far. and part of the reason is precisely because it hasn't received enough contributions and it hasn't been able to make a significant dent for install, get audience, which is the developing. what now, why do you think your london and brussels are opposing jo biden's intellectual property waiver? the presumably would be, would allow in his massive vaccination manufacturer infrastructure to create as many vaccines as they want to just spread it freely across india. why? why does even the united states try to do something and is opposed by the

intellectual property watching very well. and i think everyone respects the fact that those are actually done the research and come up with these vaccines because that applause and royalties and everything else. but at the same time, missing the manufacturer is an imperative, imperative need of humanity. and i must, i'm at a loss. busy to justify you stand in this matter. certainly, what about procedural safeguards? the want, before permitting the manufacturer of european devised vaccines in other countries can be instituted, but to not permit the licensing at all is extremely difficult to justify morally ethically and, and as i said practically because up tomorrow, the countries you failed to vaccinate and come back and back and in fact you now in the are obviously has more poverty than the whole of sub saharan africa put together. but now they're saying hundreds of millions of being pushed into poverty

by corona virus. what is the extent that you are seeing there? well, that's very good because obviously the, the economic impact of buyers has been as devastating as the else we estimated to have something like 314. i think about 3400000 to 4900000, accessed this extra step to the polite way of saying that that's that we had in the normal yeah. multiple codes. so you can attribute the bulk of these jets to code. that's been a loss of a lesson setback, but in addition to and that's obviously in many cases and read, so supporters and their families, there's also been thanks to lock down just company measures a tremendous slowing down of the economy and as a result, unemployment. and yesterday is the highest levels ever recorded. and the,

the challenge we are facing is that our people are, are jumping once again below the poverty line. we'd be proud of saved it for about 15. yes. we had about 10000000 people rising above the poverty line. thanks to, thanks to the barrier system on the measures following the liberalization of 991 of our economy. if a $150000000.00 people therefore came law middle us, it's quite conceivable that the vast majority of them have drunk back out of the middle, plus and below the poverty line. i can save you. i guess the view is in beijing watching this, scratching their heads. i've been celebrating a 100 years of the chinese communist by the and bringing 810000000 people out of poverty compared to your figures of 10000000 before go it. well, i think, you know, the communist chinese ways are we are indeed anybody else, as i suspect we have,

they have their own track record and we admire what for that's not something that's that easily replicable anywhere else. and in india, as a democracy, kind of rather talk down decree kinds of change. that appointment is china as been able to institute is simply not available. it hasn't been so far, but we've been able to bring about change in progress has been gradual, but it's for people along with us and we have been able to last poverty. now we have a long. busy way to catch up again, the one was most staring images of ideas, was that of families to what to barry or premier said did. losing the courses of their loved ones down the room. the only because they couldn't disposable bondage. i mean, that's is something that's absolutely renders, but it's, it's

a stock method for how, how badly has done in this and how much people have suffered. well, i should ask, what are your relations with china? what is india's relations with china? obviously, this comes to a, for some of said the india and china last meet in afghanistan, because there's been massive indian investment in afghanistan, biden, obviously pulling the troops of british troops coming out. what, what is the relationship, would you say, between your neighbor china? well, let me say that as far as the chinese are concerned, we had absolutely no interest in conflict with them. we back, we have consistently developed trade relations and a mobile context for many decades. and there was an unprovoked chinese intrusion across the not very well defined line of action control with 2 countries, the defective order in which 20 indian soldiers were killed, june, early june. and that action and the accompanying chinese

reinforcements of military presence. but think of as trip setting up a garrisons and so on across to him. others has certainly given a lot of lot of reason to think twice about being overtly friendly to china when china is behaving in this moment. so i would say the attentions i live in rounds of talks have been to persuade the chinese to disengage from from these areas and to return to the status quo and t of april may 2020. when things were peaceful and calm and as long as the status quo and he's not restored, india is clearly not going to be able to come back to businesses. and i think you will see an intensification of tensions along that frontier until or unless the chinese say, all right, let's go back to the we things what?

well, obviously aging says unilateral actions by the murder government that created the violence we saw in the line of control between the 2 nuclear power just to finally detect into people of all parties in delhi, detect a pivot to pakistan. now that the taliban looks at and by many to be running most of afghanistan, maybe by the end of this interview, what you said, i mean, we've invested $1000000.00 about such as money in developing everything from huge highway that runs from that around to southwest of ensuring 247 electricity to couple running the biggest return one child hospital in the country building dams. and the ottoman building has been a huge amount of development systems. and as largest beneficiary of development assistance is about us and to see plunged back into something possibly holding back

in the hands of the thunderbolt level. the prospect. we obviously work into understanding with the government, the elected government of russia. as far as any government in the region is concerned, we have to recognize realities as they exist. and if indeed, the bond was significant wrote in the future ruling arrangement of the sun, we'd have to deal with them as far as pakistan is concerned and focus on was the country the created of the bottom. the 1990, was the longest time, the only own subsidiary of the money. i sell it quite over us, right in the us and british financing how it's finance and weapons actually. and. and then of course, i did a change all that around and you ended up with the radical threat to bomb barcas on into the stone age. and that was the end of that the experiment was and let me say

that we are giving up yes, on the, on the government, total president gunny and his, and his, and his people up continue to do their very best to hold out against donavon incursions and they say that they are, in fact being able stephanie to all the capital and many other major cities in under, under control. and that's from the recognize government, the sun around the world. so that's not right. them all just shows you are. thank you. thank you for the show will be back on wednesday. angel. then keep in touch with us via social media, enjoying the conversation by letting us know using private surveillance firms didn't even exist. ah, ah, join me every thursday and the alex summon show and i'll be speaking to guess in the world, the politics sport, business and show business. i'll see you then me

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