what the accusations against israeli spyware firm and assuming for indian and global democracy. thank you so much for coming back on before we get to the spying allegations. how are you? i understand that you are recovering from co video into hospital for a short time. i mean a you okay. i know that the per capita rate is much worse here in britain than in india. that's right. no, it wasn't pleasant. i had what they call long cove, and there was a complication of something called it induce vitamin mile, which gave me a wrong key outrage. sort of it would go down to 30 some warnings and chewed up $220.00 run a couple of hours nature. so that was easy because there isn't, there was a challenge, but apparently it's not unknown in cases of, of covalent after a while into the x itself, which it seems to be in the process of doing because i've been back on a no, we're scheduled for a couple of weeks, almost 10 days and i'm not feeling particularly particular area.

so let's say that things are going. all right, so, and you being double vaccinated? i mean, how long the doctor saying this last because obviously the other people watching this want to know as well. well, i mean, you know, think about long as you never knew who can issue i can reach and once it hits, you never really know how long it can last. so there's no question that as far as my own case is concerned, i was largely operating out of bed for about 22 months, maybe even 2 and a half. there are people who, as long as 6 or 8 months off to be attacked by the virus, have actually complained about cheating. for example, in stream fatigue, you believe the double vaccination helped? i think it could have been much worse without so i'm strongly advocating vaccination for everybody. in my case, i had just taken the 2nd vaccine less than a before symptoms. so it's possible that the 2nd vaccine didn't really have time

to do its work in the body and generate the necessary anti bombs. but having said that, there's no question that it could have been very much watch and that if it weren't for the vaccination, who knows when i'd be sitting and talking to you today, to go out and vaccinate people that you are watching. well, you certainly have been politically active in the past few days or the chairman of the information technology standing committee there in india. what have you made of the allegations that the movie government has been using this in israeli intelligence surveillance software on congress party politicians. general the serious charge of course, because you know, the, the software according to the company that retails it, is only available to, to governments there. and we sell it to governments, what they call that governance on the basis of care and from the israeli government

. so it's obviously very serious to have meant to be used to track criminals and terrorists. they say, where it is. it's been deployed against domestic political bones. it's gross misuse of debt. spend money for one thing, and it's also illegal in terms of the law because we do permit interception by law and also in deception of communications. but these are only for very specified purposes to do with national security, as well as the commission on the prevention of a commission or crime. you can just intercept and certainly can get permission to dissent for political advantage. so that's the thing, the government appears to be saying that is new in any of these, of these claims. and if that is so, then the matter becomes serious and a very different way option, which is then a foreign government must have deployed this software against people and in public life. and surely that's worthy of

a full and detailed investigation as well. so i've been calling for an independent judicial investigation into these charges and to establish exactly what happened, how this was allowed to happen, to some phones of people who have been infected and see when they have been infected and, and where the waiver should need for us the biggest concern is obviously the potential assault on the foundations of the mockers. and what's been the response from the movie government? well, the government should escape into each house a follow up saying that it's on a stolen antique up. and that has been no, but i mean, to request your request for a judicial investigation. they haven't addressed that. and in fact, i'm sure that some of the victims, because you know, about 10 indians have phones that have been proven to have been infiltrated by the

biggest spyware. i think because of that these people will, in fact be likely to approach the court, possibly the supreme court asking for judicial inquiry as well. so whether the government were to move on that, for example, what's for the commission of inquiry at all whether the supreme court. so for jake independent action, we do believe a judicial inquiry would be the most effective way of getting to the i mean only on the other hand, moody is perhaps the individual with one of the greatest electoral democratic mandates on earth surveillance of a few phones. what is that going to do to your electoral processes? i understand that their allegations of electoral officials as part of the spyware hack. well, you know, if the government did it, and this is precisely what many people say,

it's the kind of incredibly unnecessary inclusion into the elliptical life of the lives of individuals that really marks out an autocratic tendency in what ought to be a democratic government. you're right, overwhelming mandated crushing majority in parliament and the mr. movies offer that a few ratings continue to write. why would he need to do each? and yet the list of targets do not look like a kind of list that would be a particular interest to some foreign government who presumably far more interested in our army or our intelligence. or indeed those ministers in the government themselves, rather than opposition. politicians, journalists covering political regions just reach and human rights actors, so that the main numbers on this visual base appear to be people on

the governor's, not terribly happy with, rather than of people that foreign governments want to intreat. and this is why the, the concern is why are you doing this and doing to realize what you're doing is against the law. the law doesn't permit you to intercept for any reasons other than those specified in the box. and the law doesn't permit you to hack other people's devices anyway and infiltrate malware into any computer, the computerized device or source using us apps, no language to 1000. i t actually. the fact is that all of this is really what is writing up space right now. the bottom and has been disrupted for a couple of days by opposition and demanding an inquiry. and the governments are generally in the future, you implemented discussion of a demand as resulted in is a huge destruction of bottom entry discussion and

a suspension repeat the germans follow. so it hasn't been hasn't been a particularly good reach for the government any. well, yeah, and the supposed to be on this list, 50000 names. it's rocking different governments around the well, we don't have the full list of the $50000.00 n s o says it's just like the white pages shouldn't be taking that much notice. but then you just said people the government on that happy with you, saying that movie isn't happy with his own it minutes as we need now, because vacation all because he's on the list is in the why would moody been bugging his own id minister? well, 1st of all, bugging or whatever even call it a snooping took place 2 years before the person was even in the upper house parliament. that would have been possible verification procedure to see if there was anything going wrong that would dissuade the government from offering the season. the upper house followed by serial. so you know, that can be multiple most you can, you can check the phone,

nothing opposition member. because you want to find out what they're up to you to check the phone of campaign manager of the spring or chief minister because want to know what inspector sought in the election campaign. and you can check the form of a prospective minister because you want to see whether there's anything you want to know about him before you give him a seat in the upper house apartment. generally. so motivations can be very yeah, well, as i said, the moody government category deny, but you know about all this stuff because you are under secretary general of the united nations. what did you make of it when you found out that george w bush was bugging your office? i mean, i think we all accept that that. busy is all of the symptom of surveillance. as part of the normal international should we say security apparatus? every country seeks intelligence on every other?

this is more theory of coffee and this is joining the run up to the iraq war. and this is the office of the secretary general united nations. all i'm saying is very often, many of us in public office conduct ourselves on the assumption that we may be eavesdropped upon. it's a different method when you're talking, lighting shopping in the domestics of space. i think anybody dealing with the issues of international doroty, including war and peace, we'll have to assume that there is a certain level of interest after all. we know about the famous case in which present the bars of ministration. bomb, chancellor, merkel and president recess and brazil. so you, there's a question that these things happen even happened between allies and friends. so the question is, when you extend this practice to domestic politics, you're doing

a number of things that are both illegal and on. if you are actually using taxpayers money to promote the authors, then for little advantage of one party which happens to be and to distort what other words in the book receives meant to be a level playing field between different sets of political opinions in your country to my mind that is in some ways, more disturbing than the old cloak and dagger a james bond kinds of stuff that governments have been playing with each other and against each other. since i know more well, the israeli company say, as you said, that is it goes to vetted governments, but i don't know. i mean, is there a possibility there are some indians that are very wealthy indeed. i think you have more billionaires than we do here in britain. good, a private individual rather than the moody government, as you suggest, be responsible. if the company itself envies really governance,

if it will be sent to governments, i gather the spyware is treated as a going to treat under israeli law. and i don't see how anybody could acquire shortly. i'll stop you there. more for asking for all of this, your break i ah, by your ministration tells us the world days is the start choice between democracy and authoritarianism. business make any sense. the balance of power in the world system is moving to multicultural. t and is not defined by audiological preferences in my phone are 6, and i don't i just

saw under the dollar format isis fighters, and they're now boarding a philippine naval ship with john $900.00. jeff, aren't abdulla still don't know, watch waiting for them. can i get a hold of me . ready ready the

welcome back. i'm still here discussing democracy privacy and van demik with one of the great politicians in right. it's wilma, i'm the secretary general of the un charging you have no objection though, to surveillance being used against criminals itself. look, i mean, you know, frankly if people unfortunately in this world of us resort to setting off bombs in crowded market places and that's all i think we in every democracy counter now security forces to keep innocent civilians. and if during that requires them sniffing around to see the kinds of people who might be tempted to set off bombs and listening to their conversations. i do believe that most people would understand i did all countries case in any case, it's permitted by law. we have the telegraph act of the british give us an 885, and we have the information technology act of 2000,

both of which are made into sections and runs of national security, the saw frontier security of india and so on. so terrorism and criminal activity, i think no one would really object, even the most democracies to the government having the rights to, to intercept communications and quote, unquote, maybe that rely a great life when it comes to hacking. because as i say, the introduction of a virus or malware is illegal in india and under indian law and other kind of laws . and that's the technique you use when you are potentially guilty as charged. because in all this, you're going to a penalty specified a 3 is in prison, and 5 like 500000, something recursive about that because you can then allow surveillance of those doing the surveillance, obviously, because that would be a criminal act. i mean,

julian assange is in jail here in london. it, thanks to him. we know about mass surveillance, perhaps mass surveillance on the offices in new york when you were there. and he, of course, helped edward snowden escape to moscow. but the foreign government considers someone criminal then they can presumably use the valence software against them anywhere in the world. i mean, you need, you can accept joe biden. ministration is, is trying to expedite the julian touch will look it's a very complicated issue. and each of us as private individuals, values are privacy and does not particularly want to give anybody a free pass. but we also convinced of our own veteran, we know we're not funding to set her bombs anywhere or anybody or do any, any harm to society of the public at large. and therefore we feel that righteously, that the government shouldn't be going off to us. but if tomorrow such a bomb was set off, i think people will go ahead and turn around. busy and asked,

what was the government doing security agencies, the police a 3 for the switch, while people were popping and planning to do bad things. so i think that's a whole different exception. the pegasus general is about the misuse of a software which these makers claim can be used as intended to be used against criminals and generous being applied instead to people who are not criminals and terrace, but who are pursuing political activities in the office on their own and not just about the journalistic got about 40 journals on damien on the well, we'll have to see whether an inquiry is a institute back to corona virus. india is the center a global center vaccine production. is it a bit like what happened in the glorious empire, your book extraction of the wealth of india, that the vaccines are going to countries outside india whilst are not going to the

indian population? fortunately, some things have changed. for example, in itself is the world's largest, that if manufacturer vaccine 60 percent off the world's vaccines pre kobe were made in india or the small box, all of that stuff that you know back to. but there are certainly some russian qualities in the way in which we find that couple of countries, the only countries which have managed vaccination more than offset populations at once. in some cases, christ all develop rich countries. whereas boss parts of the african continent, many, many areas of the world have have reached very few people. indeed in india, i think it's 5.5 percent of our population that i'm actually so we are looking at a certain evident injustice and the folly of it for some child is that nobody in the world is really safe. as long as some people are,

i'm sick because even if you vaccinated against all known barriers today in england and vaccination, african version of the virus could come in and let you know more. so what you want to do, what collective interest of manage is for every country to have a majority of its citizens vaccination. so that the virus is not able to spread that easily to mutation, to further dangerous variance. already making considerable and way down the greek alphabet or the alpha gamma epsilon lambda, and don't survive, this is all very, it's a big part and all around and that's more company. so we really do. i think we are behaving somewhat chunk of the and i would urge the international community as often requesting that it doesn't often behave as if it is a community to come together and make sure that everybody is effectively able to be

vaccination. as you know, there is the kovacs initiative hasn't failed, hasn't failed. well, let's put it this way, haven't succeeded so far. and part of the reason is precisely because it hasn't received the funds and it hasn't been able to make significant dent tall, installed audience, which is the developing world. now why do you think your london and brussels are opposing jo biden's intellectual property waiver? the presumably would be, would allow in his massive vaccination manufacture infrastructure to create as many vaccines as they want to just spread it freely across india. why? why does even the united states try to do something and is opposed by the intellectual property watching very well. and i think everyone respects the fact that those who actually done the research and come up with these vaccines because that applause and royalties and everything else. but at the same time missing the manufacturer is an imperative, imperative need of humanity. and i must, i'm at

a loss. busy to justify you stand in this matter. certainly, what about procedural safeguards? the want, before permitting the manufacturer of european devised vaccines in other countries can be instituted, but to not permit the licensing at all is extremely difficult to justify morally ethically and, and as i said practically because up tomorrow, the countries you failed to vaccinations and come back and in fact, you are now in the, are obviously has more poverty than the whole of sub saharan africa put together. but now they're saying hundreds of millions of being pushed into poverty by corona virus. what is the extent that you are seeing the well, that's very good because obviously the, the economic impact of no buyers has been as devastating as the else.

we estimated to have something like 314. i think about 3400000 to 4900000, accessed this extra step to the collect way of saying that that's that we had in the normal yeah. multiple codes. so you can attribute the bulk of these debts to koby. that's been a last lesson setback, but in addition to that, that's obviously in many cases and read. so supporters and their families saw, there's also been thanks to lock down just company measures a tremendous slowing down of the economy and as a result, unemployment and yesterday is the highest levels ever recorded. and the, the challenge we are facing is that our people are jumping once again below the poverty line. we'd be proud of saying that for about 15. yes, we had about 10000000 people rising above the poverty line. thanks to,

thanks to the very system on the measures from a liberalization of 991 of our economy. if a $150000000.00 people therefore came law middle us, it's quite conceivable that the vast majority of them have drunk back out of the middle, plus and below the poverty line. once i can save you, i guess the view is in beijing watching this, scratching their heads. i've been celebrating a 100 years of the chinese communist by the and bringing 810000000 people out of poverty compared to your figures of 10000000 before go it. well, i think, you know, the communist chinese ways, not our way or indeed anybody else does. i suspect we have they have their own track record and we admire what completion for. that's not something that's not easily metrical, but anywhere else. and in india, as a democracy, kind of rather tough down decree kinds of change. that appointment is china as been

able to institute. it's simply not available. it hasn't been so far. well, we've been able to bring about change in progress just in graduate, but it's for people along with us. and we have been able, as i said last, poverty now we have a longer. busy catch up again, the one that was most staring images of ideas was that of families to, to barriers. premier said losing the caucuses of their loved ones down the river. the only because they couldn't disposable bondage. i mean, that is something that's absolutely renders, but it's, it's a stock method for how, how badly there has done in this and how much people have suffered. well, i should ask, what are your relations with china? what is india's relations with china? obviously, this comes to a, for some of said the india and china last meet in afghanistan,

because there's been massive indian investment in afghanistan, biden, obviously pulling the troops of british troops coming out. what is the relationship, would you say between your neighbor china? well, let me say that as far as the chinese are concerned, we had absolutely no interest in conflict with them. we fact we have consistently develop trade relations at a moment, the context for many decades. and there was an unprovoked chinese intrusion across the, the not very well defined line of action control. 2 countries the defective order in which 20 indian soldiers were killed. this is june early june. and that action and the accompanying chinese reinforcements are present being of asked, strip, setting up a garrisons and so on across to him. others certainly given him a lot of love and reason to think twice about being overtly friendly to china

when china is behaving in this moment. so i would say the attentions 11 rounds of talks appear to persuade the chinese to disengage from from these areas and to return to the status quo and t of april may 2020. when things were peaceful and calm and as long as the status quo is not restored, india is clearly not going to be able to come back to business as usual. and i think you will see an intensification of tensions along that front. yet until unless the chinese say alright, let's go back to the we things what? well, obviously raging says unilateral actions by the moody government that created the violence we saw on the line of control between the 2 nuclear power just to finally detect and to people of all parties in delhi detect

a pivot to pakistan. now that the taliban looks at by many to be running most of afghanistan, maybe by the end of his interview. when, as you said, i mean, we've invested in dollars such as money in developing everything from huge highway that runs and then around to southwest of a ensuring 247 electricity to puzzle running the biggest switch at one child hospital in the country, building dams and the ottoman building has been a huge amount of development systems, as largest beneficiary of development assistance is about us. and to see it plunged back into something, possibly falling back into the hands of the thunderbolt level. the prospect. we obviously work into understanding with the government, the elective government of russia. as far as any government in the region is

concerned, we have to recognize realities as they exist. and if indeed, the value on what their significant wrote in the future routing arrangement of the sun, we'd have to do a bit as far as focused on is concerned. and parkerson was the country that created the bottom. the 1990, was the longest time, the only own subsidiary of the buy for sunday. i sell it quite all over us already . right. and quite of the us and british financing, finance and weapons actually and, and then of course 90 the change all. busy that around and you ended up with the radical threat to bomb parker saw into the stone age. and that was the end of that experiment was and let me say that we are giving up yes. on the, on the government, total president gunny and his, and his, and his people up continue to do their very best to hold out against santibanez. and they say that they are, in fact being able stephanie to all the capital and many other major cities

under, under control. and that's still the recognize government, the son around the world. so that's not right them off just shows you are. thank you. thanks for the show will be back on wednesday. angel. then keep in touch with us via social media, enjoying the conversation by letting us know using private surveillance firms shouldn't even exist. ah ah, ah ah, ah ah ah ah

ah, ah. the restrictions mandatory policies, sparks curious rallies of freedom around the world. although medics to argue that the risks of co video still need to be assess you have to balance personal choice with what's good for the most people at the end of the day. like it's a balance of risk. you can't wrap people up in caution. what? meanwhile, the u. s. ways investigate new york state handling of coven care homes, despite accusations of deliberately under counting deaths. we hear from.