before you watch each well, you certainly have been politically active in the past few days or the chairman of the information technology standing committee there in india. what have you made of the allegations that the government has been using this into israeli intelligence surveillance software on congress party politicians? well, it's in general, the serious charge, of course, because you know, the, the software according to the company that retails it, is only available to, to government there. and we sell it to governance. what they call that governance on the basis of care and from the israeli government, it's obviously very serious to have meant to be used to track criminals and terrorists. they say whether it's been deployed against domestic political opponents. it's gross misuse of debt, spends money for one thing, and it's also illegal in terms of the law because we do permit interception by law

and also intersection of communications. but these are only for very specified purposes to deal with national security, as well as the commission on the prevention of the commission of crime. you can just intercept and certainly can get permission to dissent for political advantage . so that's the thing, the government appears to be saying that is new in any of these up of these claims . and if that is so, then the matter becomes serious and a very different website, which is then a foreign government must have deployed this software against people and in public life. and surely that's worthy of a full and detailed investigation as well. so i've been calling for an independent tradition investigation into these charges and do establish exactly what happened, how this was allowed to happen, to some phones of people who have been infected and see whether they have been inspected and, and where the sub waiver should need for us,

the biggest concern is obviously the potential assaults on the foundations of all the markers. and what's been the response from the movie government? well, the government has issued a statement in each house and follow up saying that it's on a stolen antique um and that has been no, but i mean, to request your request for a judicial investigation. they haven't addressed it. and in fact, i'm sure that some of the victims, because you know, about 10 indians have phones that have been proven to have been infiltrated by the biggest spyware. i think because of that, these people will, in fact be likely to approach the courts, possibly the supreme court asking for judicial inquiry as well. so whether the government, what a move under, for example, what's for the commission of inquiry at all,

whether the supreme court itself or jake independent action we do believe a judicial inquiry would be the most effective way of getting to the bottom. i mean, on the, on the other hand, moody is perhaps the individual with one of the greatest electoral democratic mandates on earth surveillance of a few phones. what is that going to do to your electoral processes? i understand that their allegations of electoral officials as part of the spyware hack. well, you know, if the government did it, and this is precisely what many people say, it's the kind of incredibly unnecessary inclusion into the elliptical life of the lives of individuals that really marks out an autocratic tendency in what ought to be a democratic government. you're right, overwhelming mandated crushing majority in parliament and the mr. movies offer that

a few ratings continue to write. why would he need to do each? and yet the list of targets do not look like a kind of list that would be a particular interest to some foreign government who presumably far more interested in the army or our intelligence. or indeed those ministers in the government themselves rather than opposition. politicians, journalists covering political regions just reach and human rights actors. so the main numbers on this visual base appear to be people on the governor's, not terribly happy with, rather than of people that foreign governments want to intrude in. and this is why the, the concern is why are you doing this and doing to realize what you're doing against the law. the law doesn't nature to intercept for any reasons other than those specified in the logs and the law doesn't permit you to hack other people's devices

anyway and infiltrate malware into any computer. the computerized device or source using us apps, no language in 2000 i t at the fact is that all of this is really what is writing up space right now. the bottom and has been disrupted for a couple of days by opposition and demanding and inquiry. and the governments are generally in the future you implemented discussion of us demand as resulted in, in a huge destruction of parliamentary discussion and a suspension repeated the germans apollo. so it hasn't been hasn't been a particularly good week for the government any. well, yeah. and the supposed to be on this list. 50000 names. it's rocking different governments around the well, we don't have the full list of the $50000.00 n s o says it's just like the white pages shouldn't be taking that much notice. but

then you just said people the government on that happy with you, saying that movie isn't happy with his own it minutes as the vash. because vacation all because he's on the list is in the why would moody bugging his own id minister? well, 1st of all, bugging or whatever even call it a snooping took place 2 years before the person was even in the parliament. it would have been possible verification procedure to see if there was anything going wrong that would destroy the government from offering the season. the upper house followed by serial. so you know, that can be multiple, mostly. you can, you can check the phone, nothing opposition member. because you want to find out what they're up to you to check the phone of campaign manager of the spring or chief minister because want to know what effect you saw in the election campaign. and you can check the form of a prospective minister because you want to see whether there's anything you want to know about him before you give him

a seat in the upper house apartment attention. so motivations can be yeah, well, as i said, the moody government categorically denied, but you know about all this stuff because you were under secretary general of the united nations. what did you make when you found out that george w bush was bugging your office? i mean i think we all accept that that. busy is probably a symptom of surveillance. as part of the normal international should we say security apparatus? every country seeks intelligence on every other. this is more theory of coffee and this is joining the run up to the iraq war. and this is the office of the secretary general united nations. all i'm saying is that very often, many of us in public office conduct ourselves on the assumption that we may be

eavesdropped upon. it's a different method when you're talking, lighting, shopping in the domestics of space. i think anybody dealing with issues of international doroty, including war and peace, we'll have to assume that there is a certain level of interest. after all, we know about the famous case which president above and ministration bomb, chancellor merkel and president recess and brazil. so you, there's a question that happen even happened between allies and friends. so the question is, when you extend this practice to domestic politics, you're doing a number of things that are both illegal and on. if you are actually using taxpayers money to promote the bosses, then for little advantage of one party which happens to be and to distort what otherwise in a democracy is meant to be a level playing field between different sets of political opinions in your country

. to my mind, that is in some ways, more disturbing than the old cloak and dagger a james bond kinds of stuff that governments have been playing with each other and against each other. since i know more well, the israeli company say, as you said, that is it goes to vetted governments, but i don't know. i mean, is there a possibility there are some indians that are very wealthy indeed. i think you have more billionaires than we do here in britain. good, a private individual rather than the moody government, as you suggest, be responsible. if the company itself envies really governance, if it will be sent to governments, i gather the spyware is treated as a military under israeli law. and i don't see how anybody could acquire sasha. i'll stop you there. more researching for all of a short break. i ah,

for all of you out there that regret not being around the soviet union at the time with their collapse. you know, a lot of people on histology about that lot of interesting things. math time was their writing and then journal. anyway, they get to have that experience today right here in the good old us that hello driven by a dreamer shaped by those in me i think we dare to ask me

a whole lot for my phone, i $69.00 my phone i just saw up dollar a former isis fighters and now boarding a philippine naval ship in john $900.00. just aren't abdulla still don't know what's waiting for them. can i get a hold of me?

i welcome back. i'm still here discussing democracy privacy and then mix with one of these great politicians and writers former under secretary general of the un charging you have no objection though, to surveillance being used against criminals itself. i don't know if look, i mean, you know, frankly if people unfortunately in this world of us resort to setting off bombs in crowded market places and that's all i think we in every democracy counter now security forces to keep innocent civilians. and if during that requires them sniffing around to see the kinds of people who might be tempted to set off bombs and listening to their conversations. i do believe that most people would understand i did all countries case in any case, it's permitted by law. we have the telegraph act of the british give us an 885,

and we have the information technology act of 2000, both of which are made into sections and runs of national security frontier security of india and so on. so terrorism and criminal activity, i think no one would really object, even the most democracies to the government having the right to to intercept communications and quote of course maybe that rely a great life when it comes to hacking. because as i say, the introduction of a virus or malware is illegal in india and under indian law and other kind of laws . and if that's a technique you use when you are potentially guilty as charged, because in all this you're going to a penalty specified a 3 is in prison and 5 like 500000,

something recursive about that because you can then allow surveillance of those doing the surveillance, obviously, because that would be a criminal act. i mean, julian assange is in jail here in london. it, thanks to him. we know about mass surveillance, perhaps massive valence on the offices in new york when you were there. and he of course, helped edward snowden escape to moscow. but the foreign government considers someone criminal then they can presumably use the valence software against them anywhere in the world. i mean, you need, you can accept the job and ministration is trying to expedite the julie, the touch will look it's a very complicated issue and each of us as private individuals, values are privacy and does not particularly want to give anybody a free pass. but we also convinced of our own veteran, we know we're not funding to set her bombs anywhere, or anybody or do any, any harm to society or the public at large. and therefore we feel that preciously, that the government shouldn't be going off to us. but if tomorrow such

a bomb was set off, i think people will go ahead and turn around. busy and asked, what was the government doing security agencies in the police? a 3 for the switch, while people were planning to do bad things. so i think that's a whole different exception, like pegasus scandal is about the misuse of a software, which these makers claim can be used as intended to be used against criminals and terrorists being applied and said to people who are not criminals and terrace, but pursuing political activities and awful that on their own, and not just about the journalistic got about 40 journals on the, on the well, we'll have to see whether an inquiry is a institute back to corona virus. india is the center, a global center vaccine production. is it a bit like what happened in the glorious empire, your book extraction of the wealth of india,

that the vaccines are going to countries outside india whilst are not going to the indian population? fortunately, some things have changed. for example, in the south is the world's largest, that if manufacturer vaccine, 60 percent of the world's vaccines pre kobe were made in india or the small box, all of that stuff that you know back to. but there are certainly some russian qualities in the way in which we find that couple of countries, the only countries which have managed vaccination more than offset populations at once. in some cases, christ all develop rich countries. whereas boss parts of the african continent, many, many areas of the world have have reached basically people indeed. and i think it's 5.5 percent of our population that i'm actually so we are looking at a certain evident injustice and the folly of it for some child is that nobody in

the world is really safe. as long as some people are. i'm sick because even if you vaccinated against all known barriers today in england and vaccination, african version of the virus could come in and let you know more. so what you want to do, what electrolyte interest of manage is for every country to have a majority of its citizens vaccination. so that the virus is not able to spread that easily. can you take into further dangerous variance already making considerable and way down the greek element or the alpha gamma epsilon lambda, and survive. this is all very, it's a big part of all around and small company. so we really do, i think we are behaving somewhat tied to the and i would urge the international community as often requesting that it doesn't often behave as if there's

a community to come together and make sure that everybody is effectively able to be vaccination. as you know, there is the kovacs initiative hasn't failed, hasn't failed. well, let's put it this way, haven't succeeded so far. and part of the reason is precisely because it hasn't received the funds and it hasn't been able to make a significant dent for install, get audience, which is the developing. what now, why do you think your london and brussels are opposing jo biden's intellectual property waiver? the presumably would be, would allow in his massive vaccination manufacture infrastructure to create as many vaccines as they want to just spread it freely across india. why? why does even the united states try to do something and is opposed by the interaction pop watching very well. and i think everyone respects the fact that those who actually done the research and come up with these vaccines is that

applause and royalties and everything else. but at the same time missing the manufacturer is an imperative, imperative need of humanity. and i must, i'm at a loss to justify you stand in this matter. certainly, what about procedural safeguards? the want, before permitting the manufacturer of european devised vaccines in other countries can be instituted, but to not permit the licensing at all is extremely difficult to justify morally ethically and, and as i said practically because up tomorrow, the countries you failed to vaccinate and come back and back and in fact you now in the are obviously has more poverty than the whole of sub saharan africa put together. but now they're saying hundreds of millions of being pushed into poverty by corona virus. what is the extent that you are seeing that? well, that's very good because obviously the,

the economic impact of no buyers has been as devastating as the else we estimated to have something like 314. i think about 3400000 to 4900000, accessed this extra step to the polite way of saying that that's that we had in the normal yeah. multiple codes. so you can attribute the bulk of these jets to koby. that's been a last lesson setback, but in addition to that, that's obviously in many cases and read. so supporters and their families, there's also been thanks to locked down just company measures a tremendous slowing down of the economy and as a result, unemployment. and yesterday is the highest levels ever recorded. and the, the challenge we are facing is that our people are jumping once again below the poverty line. we'd be proud of saying that for about

15. yes, we had about 10000000 people rising above the poverty line. thanks to, thanks to the very system on the measures from a liberalization of 991 of our economy. if a 150000000 people therefore came law middle us, it's quite conceivable that the vast majority of them have drunk back out of the middle class and below the poverty line. i can save you. i guess the view is in beijing watching this, scratching their heads, i mean, celebrating a 100 years of the chinese communist by the and bringing 810000000 people out of poverty compared to your figures of 10000000 before go it. well, i think, you know, the communist chinese ways away or indeed anybody else does. i suspect we have they have their own track record and we admire what for that's not something that's not

easily metrical, but anywhere else. and in india, as a democracy kind of rather dumped down decree kinds of change. that appointment is china as been able to institute. it's simply not available. it hasn't been so far. we've been able to bring about change in progress just in graduate, but it's for people along with us. and we have been able, as i say to people last poverty. now we have a longer. busy catch up again, the one that was most staring images of ideas was that of families to, to barriers, premier said did, losing the caucuses of their loved ones down the river gun. got only a gun that because they couldn't disposable bondage. i mean, that is something that's absolutely renders, but it's, it's a stock method for how, how badly there has done in this and how much people have suffered. well, i should ask, what are your relations with china?

what is in these relations with china? obviously this comes to a for some have said that the india and china last meet in afghanistan because there's been massive indian investment in afghanistan by novice. he pulling the troops of british troops coming out. what is the relationship, would you say between your neighbor, china? well, let me say that as far as the chinese are concerned, we had absolutely no interest in conflict with them. we back, we have just to develop trade relations at a moment, the context for many decades. and there was an unprovoked chinese intrusion across the, the not very well defined line of actually controlled 2 countries, the defective order in which 20 indian soldiers were killed. this is june, early june. and that action and the accompanying chinese reinforcements are present being of as trip setting up

a garrisons and so on across to him. others certainly give him a lot of lot of reason to think twice about being overtly friendly to china when china is behaving in this moment. so i would say the attentions i live in rounds of talks appear to persuade the chinese, to disengage from from these areas and to return to the status quo and t of april may 2020. when things were peaceful and calm and as long as the status quo is not restored, india is clearly not going to be able to come back to business as usual. and i think you will see an intensification of tensions along that front. yet until unless the chinese say alright, let's go back to the we things what? well, obviously paging says unilateral actions by the moody government that created the violence we saw on the line of control between the 2 nuclear power just to finally

detect and to people of all parties in delhi detect a pivot to pakistan. now that the taliban looks that by many to be running most of afghanistan, maybe by the end of this interview. what as you said, i mean, we've invested in dollars such as money in developing everything from huge highway that runs from that around to southwest of ensuring 247 electricity to puzzle running the biggest switch at one child hospital in the country, building dams and the ottoman building has been a huge amount of development systems, as largest beneficiary of development assistance is about us and to see plunged back into something, possibly falling back into the hands of the thunderbolt level. the prospect. we obviously work into understanding with the government and the elected government of

russia. honey, as far as any government in the region is concerned, we have to recognize realities as they exist. and if indeed, the value on what their significant wrote in the future really arrangement of the sun we'd have to do as far as focused on is concerned. and parkerson was the country that created the bottom. the 1990, was the longest time, the only own subsidiary of the buy for sunny i sell it quite a little us quite of the us and british financing and weapons finance and weapons actually and. and then of course 90 the change all. busy that around and you ended up with the american threat to bomb parker saw into the stone age. and that was the end of that experiment was and let me say that we are giving up yes. on the, on the going to total president gunny and his, and his, and his people up continue to do their very best to hold out against santibanez.

and they say that they are in fact being able to hold the capitol and many other major cities under, under official control. and that's still the recognize government on around the world. so that's not right them off, just huge shows you are. thank you. passive show, will we back on wednesday, angel then keep in touch with us via social media, enjoying the conversation by letting us know, using private surveillance firms shouldn't even exist. ah, ah, ah right now there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or obese. is profitable to sell food that is fatty and sugary and healthy and addicted. it's not at the individual level, it's not individual willpower. and if we go on believing that will never change as

obesity epidemic. that industry has been influencing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment, ah, what's driving the reason for them is corporate me . algorithms, neural networks have been following us everywhere. we look online because our relationships are what matters most of us. and that's how we find meaning. and how we make sense in our place in silicon valley see don't mention in this leak presentations. however, i think goes to workers who train the software. humans are involved in every step of the process when you're using anything online. but we're sold as this miracle of automation behind your screen. it's workforce. that seems algorithm is for next to nothing on a very good day to do $5.00. now,

a really bad day. i could do 10 years worth is removable by design. it's about labor costs, but it's also about creating layers of western responsibility between those who solicit the kind of work and need it, and those who do it. the next financial survival guides, stacy blip, learn about be allowed. let's say i'm a joy and you're great. i'm greece based of the site, walk 3 broad. thank you for helping with the choice. that's right. waiver a biking ministration tells us the world days is the star, the choice between democracy and authoritarianism. business make any sense. the

balance of power in the world system is moving to multiple r t and is not defined by ideological preferences. the the 19 restrictions and mandatory policies, furious rally for freedom around the world, and the medics to argue that the risks of the virus still need to be effective. you have to balance personal choice with what's good for the most people at the end of the day. like it's a balance or you can't wrap people up in costs will ever and also this our know see the us as it was to investigate your state handling if you didn't care homes,

despite the accusations of deliberately under counting.