or understanding of the impact of coven 19 in the u. k. within the context of a successful adult vaccination program. however, many scientists disagree and even more strikingly saw, which is most international advice and high back need to countries including the policymakers in america, germany, new zealand of the netherlands. the positions particularly pressing in scotland, where the schools go back a mere 3 weeks under recent comparisons between the scottish and english states of infection strongly suggests. the schools had been the key vector of transmission of the by this schooling. faith of cobra transmission was higher than england until the scottish schools went off on holiday. and then with quickly overtaken by the english street where the schools were still in session. today show we talk to to t experts from north on face of the border about the government's decision making on vaccination. wait to christmas to talk cambridge for all just had become a high school name during the pandemic,

while professor so highly burned formally the chief medical officer for scotland. it's president of the british medical association. but the 1st 2 treats emails i messed is in this point for research shows, fixing scottish also it's angela mccoy and my armstrong. i'm doing epidemiologist, professor my co baker and doctor connie of x 2 university 1st and listen to our authors. dalrymple says, really interesting. show many thanks to all contributors. click on and says 5 to listen to do with under new mclean. i am definitely buying this book and i wish you all the best with netflix. loved this comment to alex. and our summit 1000000 says it's a part as enlightenment, scott, so fundamental in the formation of american politics. one must ask with the benefit of hindsight, hatred that paiute arthur goes on to say all history should be available in schools to everyone interested about everything. whether you like or new and finally on our authors. and he said that a special message to undo by says amber,

love it. your husband was great to see all of us. then moving on to i show on corbett and nations gordon. mackenzie says, when i was in school many years ago, we got vaccinated at school. i remember long lines of kids getting jobs one by one . there was no problem with the strategy back then. would it be a problem? no. linda said, great topic, alex for bringing up the sheer incompetence of the board is johnson. and lisa says, well, i for one will be continuing to wear my mosque. and finally, kevin says, we must finish up if only protections. now go to christmas. of the nick as scientists, platform has become a household name during the pandemic. no one better explains the behavior of this corona virus. dot chris smith. welcome back to the alley, simon tricia. so christmas, we have a situation where a high vaccinated countries like israel in america, i'm bo vaccinating school children, certainly 2nd to school children. but you can't face,

it's not hard to explain this. well, we've waited a long time for the j. c, v i the joint committee on vaccination and immunization to pronounce their verdict on this. and many of us suspected they probably would say because al regulate the m h r a had endorsed and pronounced safe. the use of axioms in 12 to 16 year olds, and we have other major jurisdictions like the us of the european countries like france and other countries elsewhere in the world, like israel, as you say, that have gone down the path of saying these are scenes a safe, and we're going to use them and they are indeed using them in young people. so we assume that we would probably follow suit. and the argument in favor of doing that is, if you've got a population and you want to vaccinate as many people as possible, this will translate into a reduction and spread the virus, especially in the new school year. in the autumn,

when we know that everything becomes much more common in the autumn, because that's when seasonal infections tend to surge, and there will be no comb repercussions of that. the j. c, the i, on the other hand have said they're not going to support that course of action. and they cite those as one reason for that. in their cost benefit analysis. the low risk of some side effects out of nearly 200000000 doses of the 5, the vaccine which has been approved for this age group being given and the middle of ag, same works the same way. there's a couple of 100 cases of my card itis and inflammation in the heart. well that puts the frequency about side effects about one in a 1000000. that though is about the same as the risk of you getting severe dose of corrosion of ours to feel that age. so you can see why there's attention for them. protecting young people from something with a risk profile that sort of the same frequency as the side effects of the vaccine. but the wider protection isn't being taken into account. so i think it's

a difficult decision. i can see why they've made it, but i would personally have supported encouraging anyone who is 12 and up getting a job because i think it will contribute to our ability long term to control the virus. so you can see by professor adam fed up the g c, v. i would say that the risk to children is vanishingly small, but it's less easy. explain about the risk of infect timothy across the population . given that the j. c, v i is recommending the jags be given to children who have the vulnerable adult in the household. how to explain that contradiction was speaking to the baby say on saturday. adam famous was asked about the rationale behind doing this, and he made precisely the point that as the statistic show, you're about as likely to be hit by lightning as you all to get a severe dose of covert if your child children also tend to spread karone of ours a bit less well, but not 0 than older people. and they do not suffer from severe side effects of kind of ours. but what they could do is, of course,

take the infection home and introduce it through the household unit to other more vulnerable people. and at the time, remember that we have seen encouragement of use of the vaccines in vulnerable children. so we are going to be vaccine and children who are judged to be particularly vulnerable. we're just not vaccinating children or mass at the moment . but in the last few weeks, we see them indication that the school's out of act of infection. i mean scottish effect of effective rate was higher than england's the scott is. schools for the holidays of abil neglige, gloat if 3 or 4 weeks ago. and suddenly the scottish rate drops below england has to be on the study to look at the comparison to scottish language skills to establish whether it's true. i'm not sure whether anyone's looked specifically whether there is a relationship between the school year in scotland versus in england and cases of karone of ours. but certainly we have looked for decades in a previous decade. the issue of whether the school we had drives searches in season

infections and it absolutely doesn't mean there's a really good body of research that shows that children going to school mixing at school. it's a john crucible for infections. we know that the school year is a potent driver and that is actually why the u. k. government have said, well, we're going to have freedom day when we're going to have freedom day because it will overlap strongly with when schools are on. and that would be supported by the 5 to last week. a 1000000 school children and england were off or paying off for self isolating because of classmates they or teachers who had been dead fight corona 5. if the schools were a vector for the fax and high went to a 1000000 children back at home last week. well, i think a 1000000 workers are also back at home this week on them. we've got to companies like felix dogs saying organizations like felix the dog saying that they're almost on the cost of not being able to operate. we've got another operator sort of said

we're just going to have to shut up shop at the moment because we do not have enough staff to run our business safely or effectively. this is being double the ping demik us for all just to understand the behavior of viruses and protect the support and highly infectious new strain of corona virus. what was your personal reaction when you, you saw the scenes of rebels in nightclubs celebrating freedom day and or going don't miss pam's and pleasure boats last week, but how did with them so passionate when you looked at that was the single m f is going on well, it's a pressure relief valve, isn't it? and this is telling us that there's a lot of pressure in the boiler is a considerable head of steam. and young people feel that they've been robbed, not of one, but 2 summers almost now. and they're desperate to get back to some semblance of normality that said, i hope that people will remain responsible and accept. we're not out of the woods as we keep being told by politicians. it hasn't gone away. we have got lots of

cases, but what i find reassuring is that the cases are currently cropping up in younger people, and chiefly in unvaccinated people. and that means that if we carry on the way we're going, which is to have a strong push towards vaccinating everybody, then we have a fair chance of actually really suppressing down numbers so that it remains manageable. we won't accept that the virus is not going to go away. it will become endemic. it will continue to circulate. but what we need to do is to convert it from what could be a lethal infection for some into a fairly trivial infection. for everyone. international precedent for, for a come to have a partially vaccinated population, a opening up restrictions into the, the p for a panoramic i don't think so, which is why we're being described as a unique experiment by a number of commentators. even the w h. i have said that this is a dubious state of affairs that if we don't use the advance just being handed to us

at the present time, which is a very heavily vaccinated obit with some way to go adult population. the summer, the end of the school year, people going away on holiday, so few people in the workplace on public transport and so on. then we're coinciding with a drop in pressure on the n h s. anyway, this gives us a window of opportunity. if we don't move now and try this, then we are absolutely committed to not doing this until at least next spring. often we've come to believe that the virus behavior, as they become more infectious, they become less potent unless deadly. is that still a hope and expectation of this corona virus? alternatively, i'm going to get ever more threatening. i'm more potent deviant strains of the virus. well, the reason we've got a problem with this delta veteran is more infectious. it can so mount preexisting immunity and it can amount preexisting immunity conferred by vaccinations. so

you've got something that spreads better, and it get through previous preexisting defenses. which means that if you're a vulnerable person, it doesn't have to be a nasty virus. it's just the mere fact that it's infected you. that means if you get lots of infections, you'll still get people who have consequences of those infections. so the big level, at least until you get enough people who are sufficiently immune in the population that they become less vulnerable to that effect. so really, we don't know at the moment you never say never medicine because if you do, you will be caught towns. so don't expect one thing people are failing to because of the conditions of social restrictions and long bones. other viruses not just kind of a virus, so of obviously being suppressed. can we not expect an up sub just some of our more familiar viruses to also fact moses cumming awesome. and when to where are you seeing that happening? and we have already seen that happen in some other countries. those are the usual

seasonal suspects. pharmacies, like all rest of the spiritual, insidious bars. bars is like for influenza power flu, they're already causing a problem in some places and insignificant amounts. and there are several reasons for that. one, they're coming back because people are mixing more and these viruses transmit through close personal contact. so you tend to see more cases as you is locked down and they're in demick infections. the other worry is that with time of not being exposed to these things, people will have lost some of their immunity to them. certainly among older people . and there is therefore a theoretical risk because of that slippage and immune response. some of them may come back and produce more profound, more significant illness, particularly this winter. and people are particularly concerned about the flu either this year or in forthcoming years. because i flew completely gone off our radar. we have seen so few cases that it's much harder to track how the bars is changing, what is doing, what is actually going to re materialize us. and therefore,

whether the vaccines are going to be effective against it is more of an unknown. and at the same time, people are losing their immunity. so therefore there is potentially the threat of a big flu season, which is why governments, in many, many countries are really pushing flu vaccination. and they've brought down the age at which some, in some countries the paper being vaccinated against the flu. as a safeguard against that. dr. chris smith. thank you so much for joining me again. i'm the national examine show. coming up after the break, alex introduce professor heidi barnes. we'll see you then the. the news has been me for my phone and i don't i see

jaffar und up dollar format isis fighters and they're now boarding a philippine naval ship with john $900.00. jeff, aren't abdulla still don't know, watch waiting for them. can i get a hold of me . ready ready yeah, is your media

a reflection of reality in a world transformed what will make you feel safer? tyson lation community. are you going the right way or are you being that somewhere? direct? what is true? what is in the world corrupted. you need to this end. ah, so join us in the depths will remain in the shallows, use. welcome back, professor. so how do you find is both the president of the british medical association and the world leaving public health expert holly, welcome back to the alec salmon show. and you can insure this advice from last week

from the g, c, b. i this long awaited advice saying don't vaccinate the the school because how do you explain that when countries like as still america, highly vaccinated come to so saying, vaccinate the school kids well, what's going on? i'm not entirely clear what the basis of the d. c. b, i, i school and i know certainly howard shot records, all the younger kids from these countries and becoming yellow now, whether or not i need to know there was enough my colleagues from abroad and said there was a concern about that they were entirely 100 percent comfortable was bikes in 18 young's young children, if we could be sure of the safety, then obviously it would make sense to actually the big problems. school really is

difficult to socially difficult to ventilate an older buildings and so on and marsh weighing maybe not so good for younger children. a it would be bad for transmitting via from one child to another. and the child came back home and the page may become infected or maybe the grandparents and so on. so it would be good to do it, but we should only do it when j. c. b, i absolutely sure of the safety on that because the last thing you want to damage a child who might be a little risk for gauging violence and but if lee committee felt the vice seamless unsafe for children, then why would they be advising it for kill them or set the conditions and indeed for children were the adults at home and particularly vulnerable to the virus. so

why it would be advisable for some children and others if it was felt to be unsafe . i can only imagine irish benefit and choice making if the risk is greater then you know the benefit is greater by nature. more than i think it may be that some of the kids about children haven't been exposed to an awful lot device and therefore they're not sure they can say with certain page that the risk there's a small so i think it's safe. i haven't seen data on complications of just canada and daughter way about children who had some and some complications and so on. and but they really have to

get the data and shot that out to get cracking because we're only 3 weeks away. and from this it's got a skills going back, you know, a time table that constantly. right. and i think me, well know, bit more about what things are happening in the next week. but in the absence of vaccinating, let's say the 2nd, the school children and teachers still some if so, maybe other measures that parents can take to make the children safe on the going to school and turn on vaccinated environment. well, since regular testing of pupils and teachers from so on might work. but you know that that, that hard hard coalition gentlemen, you don't know what people are casting properly, age lateral. it's more cash are not entirely accurate and so on.

and i think that the teachers need to be right for an age. the older pupils need to be right. can agent. and we need to see what is happening to younger children. and let me just show you like sedation or dial in the range. i absolutely. if i know aging, that kid is a hard decision, but i don't see any reason then safety not to do it. to be honest. and you know somebody somewhere must be asking questions about the safety of it. the vi are saying you want to do it yet, then he can answer the question. so my question saying, and these kinds of things are the things that we have to rely on

a moment while we get the details on the safety of the vaccine for younger children . but for our public health perspective, over the last few weeks, i mean i went to the england, scotland game, wembley, 2 weeks ago and it was 12000 fans and it was all you have to be double tested before you go. and the whole thing was conductive. of impeccable rigor, but typically the slate of a 60000 and we're left for the for the final, the, the 50000 a day. and the open golf does 140000 the grown plea of in the sort of things just asking for trouble clinic actually are. and you know, a lot of these things change and being treated better with being in change, particularly after sunny to violence, change to how depressing a virus but what you really want

a real nice cost of that. i mean, not, not, i could use a stronger work, but from a public health perspective, what would you assess, what your former colleagues have been doing, both north and south of the board of never come to the united kingdom. how would you basically assess the performance of the government on public health? is that, is it a minus others that somebody may have gamma? well, more coming as fire things, but it does. and you and i both know that professional advisors are they are tied to bias leticia and i was very fortunate during this with me because the professional politicians listened to the right thing. and i think by and large that's what happened. they came in scotland, i get the sense that change thing is happening in wales and island,

i'm not sure about too much of it. but there is a discomfort in my medical colleagues that they've been working really, really hard for 18, munch that listing restrictions don't. there is going to return a search that the government hasn't seen listen to what they are being told by the medical profession, particularly. and the other thing is that a lot of my medical colleagues are worried about what, what's happening to people with cancer and aren't really sure if we need to other treatment. if the banks are getting full again and, and not delay treatment for other things, potentially durable are modifiable and people are going to suffer,

show suppressing mesh as much as we can as soon as we can. it's important. and i absolutely recognize the only one. absolutely no show pretty was the idea that option or when it came to sing and where everyone run riot and spread the virus. not damaging a very finally a highly b. i'm going to see that the imagined. so for some of a familiar old enemies who have been suppressed by the lot, the excess of the, the, the flu of the and the range of other viruses. and is that can sound to you on a tablet of li will the best of public health habits that some of us have picked up and will continue with? will not help us in the long term against these more familiar falls. don't last feet, of course we shall happy any because the way in which you should press. ready the

edge you wear masks and users, you wash your hands and so on. it's a good way of dealing with bias. it's generally so, i mean, it wouldn't surprise me if corona virus became the new flu and not people if i need to disadvantage here, the crew of virus will be less will and. and then 1988. literally hundreds of millions of people around the world, lou lou began to produce different types which were less serious and so on. and that's what we learned was every winter. and there might be that corona irish falls into the same pattern. we get right to an agent, therefore comes last year, and every year we get the star shock and depend to restrain corona, writers leaching. and we were actually like seeing what's been planned for this

year. and that was a hot button so that fairly optimistic look at the future, which we all hope will come to pass. thank you very much indeed for, for joining me once again, malik silence you pleasure to vaccinate or not to vaccinate order school children. that is the question that this c, v i decision to define a decision has provoked consternation among some experts in terms of the vaccine safety. they point to the strong advice from other vacantly, to authorities in terms of public health. they point to the evidence of skills as a key vector of infection and the unknown impact of long corporate amongst children, even following a mild, initial infection. most disturbing, it's a thought that scottish schools that are training within weeks i learned one month before the english counterparts. that means children will be returning to a largely unvaccinated environment,

which in turn suggest higher rates of infection in the population and continued destruction of the school time. people know none of these are easy decisions to make. but to govern is to choose the fall of the decision until after the quarter. second to schools are bike seems the worst of all options. a non decision corporate, perhaps at the expense of children and their families. but for now, from alex myself and all the show is good bye stacy's. i hope to see you all again next week. ah me soon.

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