was quickly overtaken by the english treat where the schools were still in session . today show, we talk to 2 key experts from north and face of the border about the government's decision making on vaccination. wait to christmas to talk cambridge for all just has become a high for them during the pandemic while professor. so how did formerly the chief medical officer for scotland is president of the british medical association. but 1st, to treat e mails i messed it into sports provincials, fixing scottish also, it's angela mccoy and mighty armstrong. i mean sealants epidemiologist, professor, my co baker and doctor pardon and connie of x 2 university 1st and listen to our authors. dalrymple says, really interesting show many thanks to all contributors. click on and says 5, listen to do with under new mccloud. i am definitely buying this book and i wish you all the best with netflix. loved his comment to alex and our summit 1000000 says it's a part as enlightenment. scott fundamental in the formation of american politics.

one must ask with the benefit of hindsight, hatred that paiute arthur goes on to say all history should be available in schools to everyone interested about everything, whether you like or new. and finally on our authors. and he said that a special message to undo. the wife says amber, love it, your husband was, can eat. and so see all of us. then moving on to i show on coven vaccinations. gordon mckenzie says, when i was in school many years ago, we got vaccinated at school. i remember a long length of kids getting jobs one by one. there was no problem with the strategy back then. would it be a problem? no. linda said, great topic, alex for bringing up the sheer incompetence of the board. is johnson. and he says, well, i for one will be continuing to wear my mask. and finally, kevin says, we must anesha if only protections. now go to christmas of the nick as scientists, platform has become a household name during the pandemic. no one better explains the behavior of this

corona by this thought chris smoke. welcome back to the alley, simon christmas. we have a situation where a high vaccinated countries like israel in america, i'm bo vaccinating school children, certainly 2nd to school children. but you can't face, it's not hard to explain this. well, we've waited a long time for the j. c, v. i the joint committee on vaccination and immunization to pronounce their verdict on this. and many of us suspected they probably would say because al regulate the m h r a had endorsed and pronounced safe. the use of axioms in 12 to 16 year old. and we have other major jurisdictions like the us of the european countries, like france and other countries elsewhere in the world, like israel, as you say, that have gone down the path of saying these are scenes a safe and we're going to use them and they are indeed, using them in young people. so we assume that we would probably follow suit. and

the argument in favor of doing that is, if you've got a population and you want to vaccinate as many people as possible, this will translate into a reduction and spread the virus, especially in the new school year. in the autumn, when we know that everything becomes much more common in the autumn, because that's when seasonal infections tend to serge, and there will be no comb repercussions of that. the j. c, the i, on the other hand have said they're not going to support that course of action. and they cite those as one reason for that. in their cost benefit analysis. the low risk of some side effects out of nearly 200000000 doses of the 5, the vaccine which has been approved for this age group being given and the middle of which works the same way. there's a couple of 100 cases of my card itis and inflammation in the heart will not put the frequency about side effect about one in a 1000000. that though is about the same as the risk of you getting severe dose of

corrosion of ours to feel that age. so you can see why there's attention for them. protecting young people from something with a risk profile that sorts of the same frequency as the side effects of the vaccine . but the wider protection isn't being taken into account. so i think it's a difficult decision. i can see why they've made it, but i would personally have supported encouraging anyone who is 12 and up getting a job because i think it will contribute to our ability long term to control the virus. so you can see by professor adam fed up the g c, v. i would say that the risk to children is vanishingly small, but it's less easy. explain about the risk of infect timothy across the population . given that the j. c, v i is recommending the jags be given to children who have the vulnerable adult in the household. how to explain that contradiction was speaking to the baby say on saturday. adam famous was asked about the rationale behind doing this, and he made precisely the point that

a statistic show you're about as likely to be hit by lightning as you all to get a severe dose of covert if your child children also tend to spread karone of ours a bit less well, but not 0 than older people. and they do not suffer from severe side effects of grown of ours. but what they could do is, of course take the infection home and introduce it through the household unit to other more vulnerable people. and at the same time, remember that we have seen encouragement of use of the vaccines in vulnerable children. so we all going to be vaccines and children who judge to be particularly vulnerable. we're just not vaccinating children or mass at the moment. but in the last few weeks, i haven't received an indication that the school's out of act of infection. i mean scottish effect of the committee rate was higher than england's the scot. his school for the holidays of abil neglige, gloat if 3 or 4 weeks ago. and suddenly the scottish rate drops below england has to be in the study to look at the comparison, the scottish language skills to establish what i'm not sure whether anyone's

specifically, whether there is a relationship between the school year in scotland versus in england. and cases of karone of ours, but certainly we have looked for decades in a previous decade the issue of whether the school year drives surgeries in season infections. and it absolutely doesn't mean there's a really good body of research that shows that children go into school mixing at school. it's a john crucible for infections. we know that the school year is a potent driver, and that is actually why the u. k. government have said, well, we're going to have freedom day when we're going to have freedom day because it will overlap strongly with when schools are on and that would be supported by the 5 to last week. a 1000000 school children and england were off or paying off for self isolating because of classmates. they or teachers who had been dead fight corona 5 . if the schools were a vector for the fax and i went to

a 1000000 children back at home last week. well, i think a 1000000 workers are also back at home this week. we've got to companies like felix dogs saying organizations like felix the dog saying that they're almost on the cost of not being able to operate. we've got another operator sort of said, we're just going to have to shut up shop at the moment because we do not have enough staff to run our business safely or effectively. this is being done, the pin demick for all just to understands the behavior of viruses. in particular, this potent, highly infectious new state of corona virus. what was your personal reaction? when you, you saw the scenes of rebels in nightclubs celebrating freedom day and or going down the pams and pleasure, boats last week and how did with them so passionately them, you looked at that was the thing i'm asked is going on. well, it's a pressure relief valve, isn't it? and this is telling us that there's a lot of pressure in the boiler is a considerable head of steam. and young people feel that they've been helped not

one, but 2 summers almost now, and they're desperate to get back to some semblance of normality. that said, i hope that people will remain responsible and accept. we're not out of the woods as we keep being told by politicians. it hasn't gone away. we have got lots of cases. but what i find reassuring is that the cases are currently cropping up in younger people, and chiefly in unvaccinated people. and that means that if we carry on the way we're going, which is to have a strong push towards recognizing everybody, then we have a fair chance of actually really suppressing down numbers so that it remains manageable. we won't accept that the virus is not going to go away. it will become endemic. it will continue to circulate. but what we need to do is to convert it from what could be a lethal infection for some into a fairly trivial infection. for everyone. international precedent for, for a come to have a partially vaccinated population,

a opening up restrictions into the, the p for a panoramic i don't think so, which is why we're being described as a unique experiment by a number of commentators. even the w h. i have said that this is a dubious state of affairs that if we don't use the advance just being handed to us at the present time, which is a very heavily vaccinated obit with some way to go adult population. the summer, the end of the school year, people going away on holiday, so few people in the workplace on public transport and so on. then we're coinciding with a drop in pressure on the n h s. anyway, this gives us a window of opportunity. if we don't move now and try this, then we are absolutely committed to not doing this until at least next spring. often we've come to believe that the virus behavior, as they become more infectious, they become less potent unless deadly. is that still a hope and expectation of this corona virus, or simply,

i'm going to get ever more threatening. i'm ever more potent deviant. the strains of the virus? well, the reason we've got a problem with this delta veteran is more infectious. it can so mount preexisting immunity and it can surmount preexisting immunity conferred by vaccination. so you've got something that spreads better, and it get through previous preexisting defenses. which means that if you're a vulnerable person, it doesn't have to be a nasty virus. it's just the mere fact that it's infected you. that means if you get lots of infections, you'll still get people who have consequences of those infections. so the big level, at least until you get enough people who are sufficiently immune in the population that they become less vulnerable to that effect. so really, we don't know at the moment you never say never medicine because if you do, you will be caught towns. so don't expect one thing people are failing to because of the conditions of social restrictions and long bones. other viruses not just

kind of a virus, so of obviously being suppressed. can we not expect an up? so just some of our more familiar viruses to also fact moses cumming awesome and when to where are the thing that happening. and we have already seen that happen in some other countries. those are the usual seasonal suspects. forces like all rest of the spiritual in situ bars bars is like para influenza power flu. they are already causing a problem in some places and insignificant amounts. and there are several reasons for that. one coming back because people are mixing more and these viruses transmit through close personal contact. so you tend to see more cases as you is locked down and they're in demick infections. the other worry is that with time of not being exposed to these things, people will have lost some of their immunity to them, certainly among older people. and there is therefore a theoretical risk because of that slippage and me response. some of them may come back and produce more profound, more significant illness,

particularly this winter. and people are particularly concerned about the flu either this year or in forthcoming years. because i flew completely gone off our radar. we have seen so few cases that it's much harder to track how the bars is changing, what is doing, what is actually going to re materialize as therefore whether the vaccines are going to be effective against it is more of an unknown. and at the same time, people are losing their immunity. so therefore there is potentially the threat of a big flu season, which is why governments, in many, many countries are really pushing flu vaccination. and they brought down the age at which some, in some countries the paper being vaccinated against the flu. as a safeguard against that. dr. chris smith. thank you so much for joining me again. i'm the examine show coming up after the break. alex interview professor, heidi barnes will see you then. ah,

ah ah, me algorithms, neural networks have been following us everywhere. we look online because our relationships are what matters most stuff. and that's how we find meaning. and how we make sense in our place in silicon valley c o's don't mention in the slick presentations. however, the ghost workers who train the software humans are involved in every step of the

process when you're using anything online. but we're sold, as is miracle of automation behind your screen. it's vulnerable workforce. that seems algorithm that's for next to nothing on a very good day to do 5 hours now. a really bad day. i think you can use workers are miserable by design. it's about labor costs, but it's also about creating layers of watson in responsibility between those who solicit the kind of work and need it. and those who do it when i would show the wrong one, all 3 job don't the rules. yes. to shape out the thing because the after an engagement equals the trail, when so many find themselves well,

the part we choose to look for common ground in the new gold rush is underway, and gunner thousands of ill equipped workers are flocking to the goldfields, hoping to strike it, rich children are torn between gold and education. my family was very poor. i thought i was doing my best to get back to school, which still it will have the strongest appeal. the welcome back professor. so how the barnes is both the president of the british medical association and the world leaving public health expert hottie. welcome back

to the alex salmon show. and you can insure this advice from last week from the g c, b. i this long awaited advice saying don't vaccinate the the school because how do you explain that when countries like as still america, highly vaccinated come to so saying, vaccinate the school kids well, what's going on? i'm not entirely clear what the basis of the d. c. b, i swan, i know, certainly howard shot records, all younger kids in the countries and becoming, you know, whether i'm not sure if i need to know there was enough my colleagues from abroad and said there was a concern about that they were entirely 100 percent comfortable with bikes and h e. young's young children, if we could be sure of the safety, then obviously it would make

a lot change to actually the big problems school really difficult to socially difficult to ventilate an older buildings and so on and marsh waiting. maybe not so good for younger children. a it would be bad for transmitting via from one child to another. and the child came back home and the page may become infected or maybe the grandparents and so on. so it would be good to do it, but we should only do it when j. c. b, i is absolutely sure of the safety on that because the last thing you want to do is to damage a child who might be a little risk for gauging violence annually. but please, becky felt the vice seamless unsafe for children. then why would they be advising it for killed them, reset the conditions. and indeed for children,

we have the adults at home and particularly vulnerable to the virus. so why it would be advisable for some children and others if it was felt to be unsafe. i could only imagine irish benefit and choice the making is the risk is greater then you know, the benefit is greater as the back to me at the moment. i think it may be that some of the kids about children haven't been exposed to an awful lot device and therefore they're not sure they can say with certain page that the rescuers, they small. so i think it's safe. i haven't seen data on complications of just canada any daughter way about children who have had some and some complications show and and, but they really have to get the data and shot that out. we have to get cracking

because we're only 3 weeks away from scott skills going back, you know, a time table that constantly. right. and i think me, well know, bit more about what things are happening in the next week and the absence of vaccinating. let's say the 2nd, the school children and teachers still some if so maybe other measure the parents can take to make the children safe on the going to school and turn on vaccinated environment to regular tasting of pupils and teachers from so on might work. but you know that, that, that's a hard and hard policy implemented. you don't know what people are casting properly, age lateral floor cache are not entirely accurate and so on.

and i think that the teachers need to be right to an age. the older pupils need to be right to an agent, and we need to see what is happening to younger children and let j. c d i to show you like sedation lower down the trains. i absolutely. if i know i should age and that kid is a hard decision, but i don't see any reason then safety not to do it. to be honest. and you know, somebody somewhere must be asking questions about the safety of the vi are saying you want to do it yet, then he can answer the question. so my question saying, and these kinds of things are the things that we have to rely on

a moment while we get the details on the safety of the vaccine for younger children . but for public health perspective, over the last few weeks when i went to the england scotland game, wembley, 2 weeks ago and it was 12000 fans and it was all got to be double tested before you go. and the whole thing was conductive of impeccable rigor. but 2 weeks later, the 60000 and waiting for the final, those the 50000 a day and the open golf, the 140000 the grown plea of in the sort of things just asking for trouble. correct. and you actually are, and you know, a lot of these things change and being treated better with being in change, particularly after sunny to violence seems to have a depressing to say to the buyers. but what you really

want a real nice cost of that. i mean, not, not, i could use a stronger work, but from a public health perspective, what would you assess, what your former colleagues have been doing, both north and south of the board of never come to the united kingdom. how would you basically assess the performance of the government on public health? is it, is it a minus others that somebody may have gamma? well, my gosh, nobody coming as far as things, but it does sound. and you and i both know that professional advisors are they are tied to bias publications. and i was very fortunate during this with me because the professional politicians who listened to the right thing. and i think by and large that's what happened. they came in scotland. i get the sense that

changed things happening in wales and island. i'm not sure about too much of it, but there is a discomfort in my medical colleagues that they've been working really, really hard for 18 months. that listing restrictions don't, there is going to return a search that the u. k. government hasn't listened to what they are being told by the medical profession, particularly. and the other thing is that a lot of my medical colleagues are worried about what, what's happening to people with cancer and aren't even sure if we need to other treatment if the banks are getting for like and, and not delay treatment for other things. potentially durable, are modifiable,

and people are going to suffer, show suppressing mesh as much as we can as soon as we can or can fortunate. and i absolutely recognize the only one. absolutely no show was the idea that you know, i came to sing and everyone run riot and sped by us as damaging a very finally a highly b. i'm going to see that the imagined so for some of a familiar old enemies who been suppressed by the law. the next set of the, the, the flu of the and the range of other viruses. and is that could sound to you on a tablet of li will the best of public health habits that some of us have picked up and will continue with? will not help us in the long term against these more familiar falls. don't last feet, of course we shall happy any because the way in which you should press. ready the

edge you wear masks and users, you wash your hands and so on. and i think way of dealing with bias is generally, so, i mean, it wouldn't surprise me if corona virus became the new flute and not people, if i actually to disadvantage here the crew of virus will be less will and. and then 1918. they literally hundreds of millions of people around the world. either lou lou began to produce different types which were less serious and so on. and that's what we learned was winter. and there might be that corona irish followed him to the shaving potter. we get it right to an agent, therefore it becomes less severe. and every year we get the star shock and depend to restrain corona, writers leaching and we have to actually match what's been planned for this year.

and that was a hot button so that fairly optimistic look at the future, which we all hope will come to pass. thank you very much indeed for, for joining me once again, malik silence you pleasure to vaccinate or not to vaccinate order school children. that is the question that this c, v i decision to define a decision has provoked consternation among some experts in terms of the vaccine safety. they point to the strong advice from other regulatory authorities in terms of public health. they points to the evidence of skills as a key back to the infection and the unknown impact of long corporate amongst children, even following a mild, initial infection. most disturbing, it's a thought that scottish schools that are trading within weeks, i learned one month before the english counterparts. that means children will be

returning to a largely unvaccinated environment, which in turn suggest higher rates of infection in the population and continued destruction of the school time people. none of these are easy decisions to make. but to govern is to choose the fall of a decision until after this quarter. second to schools are bike seems the worst of all options. a non decision corporate, perhaps at the expense of children and their families. but for now, from alex myself and all the show is good bye stacy's. i hope to see you all again next week. ah me soon

the home phone are 69. i've done a lot of jaffar and up dollar a former isis fighters. and now the boarding of philippine naval ship with this has been john $900.00 jeff, aren't abdulla still don't know what's waiting for them can i

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