i don't want them to feel bigger visionaries, me so think chevy knots in our plan is via diversity has long been crying for help . and now hundreds of species could vanish in the face of their us and we're talking end of the century. these are one of them. what does their extinction mean for our future? talk to dave colson, professor of biology at the university of suspects, an author of violent earth burning in sick apocalypse. dave golfing professor of biology at the university of sussex and author of fallon, earth averting the in sick polyps. welcome to our show crate. have you this pleasure to be here? all right, so when you tell someone that the populations of insects are going down and the most frequent reaction would be what lake. oh, well, whatever. there would be less of that annoying, buzzing and stinging. can you summarize?

whereas what exactly happens when in this appear and why really shouldn't be happy? yet, of course you're absolutely correct. many people really don't like insects very much and they think it's a good thing if they're, if you're insects, but actually it's a disaster. so insects make up the bulk of all life on earth of we've named so far about one and a half 1000000 species of animal plant on our planet of which 1100000 different types of insect. so they are bio diversity ready or big chunk of it. and the food for many of the organisms with insect says lots of birds and baths and small mammals and freshwater fish. and i'm, phoebe ends and lizards. they all eat insects at the insects go. they will go but insects also do lots of other things that are really important, like they control crop pests. they,

they're really important in recycling. they recycle dead bodies. dead trees leaves all sorts of organic material. they break dire, and they keep the soil healthy. they distribute seeds, and of course, the thing that is perhaps most familiar, they polonaise. so the large majority of all the plants in the world need pollinating by insects. i wouldn't say any seed with them would disappear. and approximately 3 quarters of all the crops that we men's gro, depend upon insect pollinators. everything from strolled prison, raspberries, and apples to pumpkins, and blueberries, and tomatoes, and chili peppers, and even coffee and chocolate depend upon insect pollinators. so their life would be pretty di, revive without all the foods and, and the honest truth is we couldn't feed everybody with insects. so whether you

love them, all loads them. we really do need infects according to the european parliament data about a 3rd of bees and butterfly populations are declining and 10 percent of these and butterfly pieces are actually endangered massive amounts of insects have disappeared in the past few decades alone. so what kind of an environmental effect are we looking at already? well, if, if we don't do something about it pretty urgently, when we're looking at the kind of the collapse of the functioning of ecosystems elementary grind to a halt. if we continue to lose insects, not just extinction, but it's the luck. it's the, the fall in abundance of species that are probably really most crucial has been some really dramatic evidence. for example, from germany where a long study find that the, the bio massive fly insects, the weight of flying insects fell by 76 percent in the last 26 years.

so in such a, just becoming much, much less common, which means all the jobs that they do are not being done anymore. and that is the real danger. and that's what's going to, going to impact on us to actually know of the insect species that have already gone extinct. and they're never coming back to the probably a great number of them that we don't know about is it's really interesting actually that we, we think that there may be another 4000000 or more species of insect that we haven't even named yet. and it's really quite side, but there's no dive at all the species are going extinct before we discovered them . but they're all insects that we do know of gone extinct. so for example, there was the world's biggest a week, which probably doesn't appeal to many people, but it lived on the island to send a laner in the, in the atlantic. and it's gone forever. there's a bumblebee franklin's bumblebee,

which used to live in california and oregon and it's extinct. that's it. for franklin's bumblebee. so some of gone but most haven't i and it's, and it's not too late for those. you know we, we could bring them back. but how do you actually know that there definitely extend because we've heard this before that these are that species, not only sex in general, are thing and then 102030 years on we see them come back. yeah, it's a very good question and of course it's almost impossible to prove beyond any dyers, but something has gone extinct, particularly when it's small, you know, where we're pretty sure the dinosaurs are extinct because it would be hard to miss one. but if it's a be already away, go little wall or something, but then if it is difficult to be certain,

there isn't one hiding somewhere. which is why most insects is why not that many insects have yet been declared formally extinct. because while die remains, they all declare extinct. but so for example, franklin's bumblebee, there hasn't been c 9 for 15 years. and every year people have gone to all the places where, where it used to be fined and searched for it. and nobody can find it. it is possible i'd have to admit that that might be some hiding somewhere in the rocky mountains of north america where they haven't yet been rediscovered. so yeah, if we're really lucky, there might be a few left but but as i said, i think the really critical issue is not whether or not individual species have gone extinct, but it's this broad collapse in numbers of infects that's, that's really critical. so when we talk about pollinators of love of plants

such as different types of bees, like you mentioned and especially are endangered at the moment. why them, what is happening are having less flowers. the muslim world doesn't have many flowers, particularly the way farming has changed with bigger and bigger fields. heavy mechanization, large monoculture of crops growing with lots of herbicides used to mean there are. so there aren't any weeds, means there are very few flowers in the landscape. and when they're all flowers, they're often contamination within decides with pesticides designed to, to be poisonous to insects. so it's probably habitat last to intensive farming is the biggest driver of b declines. but also climate change is starting to, to kick in, and particularly with bumble bees, which are my kind of speciality the big ferry beads that are common in the northern hemisphere. they're really well adapted to living in cool places like great britain

and lots of russia, and they don't like warm weather. so they're really beginning to be pushed northwards by the effects of climate change. why are farmers so keen on using pesticides and if it actually hurts pollinators and therefore their livelihoods. yeah, it's a difficult one and i, i have a lot of sympathy for fun. so yeah, we shouldn't forget that. we absolutely need farmers because we'd all starve to death for them. and we need to somehow find a way of growing food and feeding everybody which is sustainable, which isn't doing ever increasing damage to the environment. and as i think one of the biggest challenges that humanity faces is working out how to do that. so far farmers use pesticides because they're worried that the lose their crop if they don't and often that they're working on very small margins that they struggle to make a living and they can't afford that crop to, to be damaged by in fact pass. so in the short term,

they use them because they feel they have to but the danger is that in the long term, you know, we're undermining the very kind of basis that the environmental health, which crop production depends upon them. so in the long term, those farmers will suffer because they crops wont be pollinated, but they're more worried about getting this year's harvest in, understandably because they need to make a living. so we need to help them basically quite, i mean, all of us can actually stop using pesticides in our own gardens, right. but will individual effort like yours and might even make any difference if the sides and chemicals are still being used on an industrial level. you know, how is it possible to give up this gigantic nature of our food production? i mean, specially in the context of cost and population growth. well, so the cheese at 2 interesting things that the 1st is i do think it would make a difference if, if individual homeowners,

gardner stopped using pesticides you know, i don't know the figures the russia, but in the u. k. there are about $22000000.00 private gardens that cover an area of about $400.00 size and hector, as of land, which is actually a bigger area than all the natures as in the united kingdom. so, you know, just imagine the always gardens were pesticide free and were full of be from the flowers that would actually make a really substantial difference. but it probably wouldn't overcome all of the problems because a much bigger area of land is farmed than is gardens. so we do need to come back to this question of, you know, how do we feed the world in a way that's truly sustainable? and i do think that it's, it's, it's not impossible. you know, where we're clever creatures. if we put our mind to it, we can do this. and actually, i think part of the answer is to invest more in research and development into

alternatives to pesticides. yeah, there's a lot of money poured into developing new pesticides, millions of of pines dollars a year. go into research to, to find new pesticides. hardly any goes into research into, into ways to minimize pesticide use because the big companies make that money from selling the pesticides not from not using pesticides. but that's where government needs to step in, i think. and, and, and fund research into more sustainable fami methods. we're going to take a short break right now, and when we come back, we'll continue talking to dave colson, professor of biology at the university of sussex. other of silent ers, averting the in the apocalypse, talking about what was extinction of in the mean, where human kind stay with the

ah, ah oh, the join me every thursday on the alex simon show. and i'll be speaking to guess in the world, the politics sport, business. i'm show business. i'll see you then me pop with 1st session is 0 time and like, what do you call that? what is that word? is called communism right? only in communism with our state run countries, they have no recession, but they also have no way for anybody to have a life rather than being a slave. so ok, that's for america, that is haven't

been in my phone. and i don't, i just saw under the dollar format isis fighters, and they're now boarding a philippine naval ship with the $900.00 jeff, aren't abdulla still don't know who was waiting for them to do and i didn't actually get a hold of me

ah, we're back with they've gotten professor of biology at the university of sussex and either of silence or averting the insects apocalypse. dave in china. i've heard farmers have sorry to pollinate their orchards by hand. can this be the future of recall true. i mean, everywhere in the world they've, china can do it. well, yeah. now it's, i mean it's pretty terrified actually. you're right in, in 5, west china. they're a big areas of apple and pair orchard which and i will hand pollinated. but in china, labor is very cheap compared to most of the rest of the world. and it's a relatively high value crop. it's really hard to see farmers

in, in the developed world being able to afford to pay people to, to walk around the fields, hand pollinating every flower. and it would certainly be incredibly expensive and it would mean massive increases in the price of food. and it seems kind of nuts to spend a lot of money on employing people to do what b 's do really well for free. it would be much cheaper, i think, to look after the bees than to try and do the job for them. you know, there is a famous episode of black marrow. i don't know if you've seen a wherever body bees are being used in the u. k. because of the real bees actually died. i mean, it's kind of sy fi ok, but companies are already looking into that possibility. do you think that will be our last resort? i really hope not. and you're absolutely right. yeah. there us robotics engineers

around the world. i know of at least full labs for the building robot base right now. but it seems kind of nuts because that's gonna, it's going to be expensive. it's gonna require lots of resources, metals, plastics, energy. they're going to need repairing and replacing. they're going to break down a list of the countryside. and that's the worst case scenario. terrorists break into the, to the b bar control system and turn them against something. when you know real bays there by degradable self replicating that carbon neutral being pollinating flowers for more than 100000000 years. and they really go to that. it seems to me that, that looking after the real thing would be much cheaper van than building their replacements. so climate change has a precarious tall and flor phone everywhere on planet. we know, for instance how it causes ice to melt right and prolongs arctic summer and sun

curl barriers, starvation. what impact does climate change have on insects? a depends on the insect. and actually, i mean broadly, many insects like warmth, the firm affiliate the basque to warm themselves up. so you'd think on the face of it that actually it might be quite good for many insects to have warmer weather. but the reality is that it doesn't seem to be the case that the most insects that have been stood it in this respect. even ones that like warm weather like butterflies, are actually declining as a result of climate change. and it's, it's partly because we think the habitats that they live in a ny very fragmented. so lots of creatures live on little natures as a little islands of habitat, surrounded by a sea of intensive farmland, all cities, roads, all sorts of man may things where they places where they can live. so historically,

when the climate changed gradually, as i say just came and went, insects range is shifted towards the poles and they could do that because they could move for, there was a continuous habitat for them to move slowly northwards. but now, if they've got to move northwards, they may have to jump hundreds of kilometers to find the next bit a suitable habitat and many insects just on capable of doing that. so there, stranded on the little island which is becoming too hot for them and they can't get to the next place where they could theoretically live. so only evidence we have is that basically climate and just adding to the poor insect woes. is there any help actually that bees bumblebees in sax, in particular, bumblebees will adapt to mountain changes. i'm talking about resisting pesticides, heat waves, for instance. yeah, the, i mean,

sunny insects camera evolve resistance to pesticides, but it takes time. and i think the problem the insects have is we're kind of bombarding them with lots of different problems all at the same time. they might be able to cope with one pesticide if we kept using the same pesticide, eventually they'd probably become resistant to it. but actually, you know, in the european union, for example, we currently use about 500 different pesticides and they change all the time. so there's little chance of the bees having time to, to have old resistance to them before they're switched for something else. and it's not just the pesticides, they're also having to cope with the climate. changing the loss of that habitat with invasive species moving in also to other issues which makes it really hard for them to keep up. so sure things can adopt over time, but it takes sizes of years and we're not giving them anything like that. you know, well, pollinators are endangered,

climate change is causing some insects of normal activity. i have growing temperatures, increase pass metabolism and you know, they're more hungry. there are options and crops become more ravaging. climate change cannot be turned around. that's for sure. but is there anything that can be done about this particular problem? i think this, the simple answer is we have to try and minimize all of these other pressures that we're putting on insects. you're absolutely right. we're not going to stop climate change from happening. we can mean we can reduce the severity of a by acting soon and decisively. and that's really, really important, not just of course, for insects, but for many other reasons too. but in the meantime, if we provide be, for example, with some way to live, i'm with lots of flowers and we stop poisoning them. they might be able to cope with climate change if they've got lots to eat. and everything else is looking rosy

. they're not going to be able to cope with climate change if we keep poisoning them and destroying that their homes. just wondering, is it possible to exterminate, i don't know, like a selected insect the sees without actually harming others? yeah, well it might be one day, it isn't at the moment, but that has been researched on 2 things called gene drives, which i another geneticist. and i, i can't explain the mechanism exactly. but essentially, you insert a gene that makes an insect steroidal, which spreads through the population. and theoretically, you can release some of your genetically engineered insects into the wild and it wipe site their entire species. and in lab experiments, this has been done with one species of mosquito successfully. and so it does offer

the offer the potential live in the future. we might be able to say, you know, here's a species we've decided we don't want it anymore. we're going to wipe it eyes, but that i must admit, terrifies me because that is a kind of power. but you know, we're playing god on a global scale. it would be really hard to police part from anything else because, you know, if one country, one laboratory releases these genetically engineered creature, they're not going to stop at the national boundaries. they'll spread everywhere. and so where would we stop which species would we decide? we didn't want and who would decide which test species were, is a pretty scary world. a habit as for bees, are disappearing. not only because of past aside views, but also because our growing population needs new places to lee. right. well, we can try to help the situation. we can't really just stop encroaching and fields and ms. meadows, can we? no, we can't. we just need places to live, but we can,

we can live alongside these and other insects we can. they can live in the garden. as we discussed earlier, my garden is full of life. i'm looking, i've got quite a big garden, but i'm looking at the window behind my laptop right now when the robust lies flying around and bumblebees, if everyone's garden was like that, then it wouldn't really be a problem. if urban air is expanded because wildlife would be living with us. so i think that is part of the solution is persuading people to, to invite life in, you know, we're, we're, we're, we're very many people because they don't really like in thanks. they don't want them in their gardens, but if we could, if we could just wind them over, persuade them to love in fax, which is kind of my mission in life. then maybe that be realize how beautiful and interesting these creatures are. and they would welcome into their gardens. but i mean, i mean, something i don't like insects. it's just that there's some insects that i would

want in thing that malaria mosquitos and such will i need some poor. i definitely won't cry, they disappear was unfortunately, been 6. we don't like tend to be one of that would be extremely difficult to, to get rid of even if we wanted to. and they are ones that a thriving in the modern world. things like some species of things like high flyers, mosquitoes, cockroaches, they're really tough and adaptable. so there's a kind of irony that the insects we would really like to do with eyes doing just fine, the ones we really need and that we value as being beautiful or important pollinators are the ones that are disappearing, which is yeah, unfortunate. oh, you know, that's how good an evil works in the world. there's 95 percent of good, but the 5 percent of evil is just so well organized. you know?

yeah, something like that. so growing more, in fact attractions and gardens is one thing you advocate very strongly can personal garden tending really becoming a trend so powerful. they actually overturned the current insect extermination process. it would really help. it would certainly some in things could survive justin gardens and, and i actually, i, i, i've no idea what it's like in russia, but in the u. k, there is a real movement to do this. there are lots of people filling the gardens with be friendly flowers, right, nire. if you look on social media, everyone's talking about it posting pictures of a garden full of flowers and bays and long grass and so on. so there is, is a social movement taken off and i seen signs of it and other countries too. so that would really help. but as i say, the impacts of farming are bigger on a global scale. and there are lots of insects that won't be able to survive just in

gardens alone. so we do need to tackle issue with global food production. but as i said earlier, i don't think that's impossible. and actually the current intensive farming system is really inefficient. we produce very crudely 3 times as much food as we need to feed everybody on the planet right now. but then we waste roughly a 3rd of that food and we feed another 3rd of it to livestock, which is just a really inefficient way of feeding people. so if we could be more efficient, reduce food waste and persuade everyone to eat less meat than actually we could greatly reduce the amount of farmland and we could set aside much more land for, for wildlife. they've, thanks a lot for this wonderful. inside the world of insects, thank you so much. it's been such a pleasure and very interesting talking to you. i'm inspire to the gardening after this interview. so i hope this talk will is for anyone else who sees and hears that

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