the hello, we welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered non peter labelle, we are witnessing a significant and irreversible shift in the international system. is undeniable. we live in and multiple the world to example. suffice. the bike administration is inability to hold the north stream to and the recent china us meeting great power politics is back. the discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, but decent. and also he's a professor at the university of south eastern norway, as well as the author of great power politics in the 4th industrial revolution. and here in moscow, we cross to dmitri bob and she is a political analyst and editor it in us, me internet media project, or a gentleman cross our rules, and that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. ok, let's go to glen 1st enough flow much has been talked about the,

the north stream and the gas pipeline connecting russia to the german market. here of course, is in the american domestic context. it's a win for, even though they don't understand the context of the story that it was germany that actually wanted the pipeline in the 1st place. and it is a private initiative. it is not state the state. so, but you know, it would be if you look at some of the reactions in western media, this is, this is just giving the russians another chance to commit aggression. they chose weakness on the west part. i mean, there's a bunch of mental misunderstanding of this story. here and unfortunately, she's feeling the worst possible fear mongering that we've been experiencing, particularly in the last 5 years. no, i agree. i think that's a big misunderstanding around it again pertaining to russia. for example, it's quite extreme again, you want to also have to keep in mind that the point that was a german initiative,

again, they want to to increase their energy security in order to in order to make sure that their, their industries remain competitive energy security. so much to find us reliable and cheap supply of energy, that's what the russians offer. so this was a deal between the russian and german company. and then the next into states was the see. there is also an interesting narrative because they're not actually a part of this deal. how to enter this whole saga was by threatening or blackmail in its own hours. because while the germans wanted more energy security, they went in a sanctions against an attempt to punish and obstruct or ability to increase their energy security. now this is the sale that if as well so they've been actually doing to make any real concessions and the pipeline, i think you now and dave percent finished so and then again,

bite has been very specifically this is not some generosity in the end of their their punishment of germany and russia because they, they fail to achieve their objectives. the pipeline is finished and they came to the conclusion is better to come out of this will saving some face and allows us our relations with the germans and rushes and more so let's pretend we make a deal and that deal with between the americans and the germans also effectively the us listing, bunch of conditions and if the germans were complied then they will stop punishing the germans. so it's not so much of the deal and blackmail it's. it's quite extraordinary about the but again, the, the feedback be really strange because i'm not sure what else they were supposed to do. those of us know the story, draw the same conclusion. diem of the interesting thing is that the trump administration and the by the mystery,

they kept invoking ukraine their new found friend here. but at the same time, the trump administration and even people within the bite administration or saying and better buying russian gas when you bought the american l. n g. which of course begs the question, well, what does your friends ukrainian ok, i mean, none of this story makes any sense whatsoever. if you give it a western context, go ahead. well, unfortunately, it's not just the american side, you know, in germany from britain you have roughly the same absurd claims. you know, i'm just coaching. give is. the german newspaper. mrs. merkel has depraved ukraine . i think just member that out. everyone was political in doing that space. and though this article was republished in the, in, in europe, in the u. k, for example, daily, expressly published if someone named maximilian took

a former advisor to the british defense ministry. he said, he wrote in political that basically, while the united states will be having a war with china to think about the time in the war with china, poor jim could attack europe and just take your defense just because the space will be absorbed in a wall with china and all of these because over the last few project last him to because it will give money to put. and so, which would be able to, after i've voted just and watch and political a us, china war would likely absorb most if not all us economic and military capability. and consequently, caveat undermine its credibility to provide deterrence in europe. and because of that such, it will provide you with the much loan for up and she wanted you to remedy your ashes, defeat at the end of the cold war in 18. 91. i mean, if this is more insane than what is and the problem is that the people who are such

they are not guys from the street. you know, they are former advisors to the british defense ministry. they hi, blaze us a few show such as far cause, you know, she, she made similar claims about ukraine being sold out to the, to the russia and just shows you how absurd the western media and the western political was becoming. the problem is the more essential people, they also have to change their opinions because there is such pressure from inside the army washer. they came to that for the germans, the chance to ship from the sheed. you was relatively, you know, so, but until recently i started making claims that the german you will have to punish russia if russia interprets the construction or not came to i think i and green light for. busy for pressure in ukraine,

so i don't know where the some show that you will stop because if you know, so glen, kind of put this all in contact. the last couple of years, been ramp rabbit, anti russian offensive that they've been going on. particularly emanating from nato. i mean they interpret this as a defeat. so i mean this, this very powerful unity, unity, unity. they keep repeating over and over. i guess there really isn't. there is also, it's really kind of laugh at the facade here at the end of the day. you need reliable, cheap energy. ok. and all of their nonsense of all their, their, their propaganda war just goes into copies. go ahead. the core of this propaganda, though, it is the key arguments which everyone agrees on which is absurd to begin with, even the germans and americans, they will agree on this, on the mental thing that they all have to serve you crazy,

right of transit. now this is repeated over and over again. right? so it means all russian gas to your russian. yes, you're right. how this transitive through its territory and collect billions of dollars every year is quite an absurd argument against russia has any will. first of all, this pipeline makes perfect economic sense. the fact that it has to pay the $1000000000.00 for dollars every year to grievance means about the german. then the rest of that something again from, from, from cutting out the middle man. but also it makes much more reliable. and this is why the germans initiated, but still they use pushing with arguments of russia unreliable supply, which means europe teams to cut her lines on russia. well, the russia, ukraine, unreliable transit state and would like douglas reliable? it's this, this is not. but again, this is interpretive of an energy weapon. if they deny ukraine,

they're right. the transit because they have this device right to have russian gas goes through their territory. and it's, it's quite extraordinary and even make it worse. over the years, ukraine has made great attempts to cut all social and economic ties to russia to reduce all dependents on ross. i mean, ever seen binding its books, the stopping flies across the board, and the us every turn offloads this liberating and so for russia. but this one effort by russia to reduce its reliance on energy transferred through ukraine is deemed to be criminal. and again, a consensus across the board. this makes perfect sense is, is quite extraordinary where this comes from. it. ok, let's, let's take these, the, the nato argument, you know, needs this, this is a win for, he needs the money. ok as if other countries don't want russian gas because they do so. i mean if it is so very, very important to the kremlin,

why would they cut off the supply? see that their logic is fails on every single metric. go ahead. oh yes, i agree with what glen just also because okay, let's take the figures. ukraine gets ration. friendship between $2.00 and $3000000000.00 a year. so if i was the population of ukraine was near in 50000000. it was 4948. now it's less than 40 people went to work in russia and the european union. well, the g and lack of full reduces the population. but still it's a big country, it's bigger than poland. if it is, of course, bigger than 100 check republic, it's a huge country. and the, and the top $3000000000.00 with a lot feed. what could feed it was used in the russian market and being a real bridge between russia and the you that could feed 40000000 people. but

then you are a human ukraine that installed and so violently in 2012, sorry, 2014. they're doing everything took up any time to rush. i mean, just a people may not know it in the west. zelinski imposed sanctions on the hermitage. museum in st. petersburg. the landscape is both sanctions on the moscow state university. if you live in your grades, you can't have called them with these always asians. so this is the 1st argument. the 2nd argument is called you ok. the german green part u. s. as we learn from the national interest insists that the, you know, the pipeline should be commissioned and they initiate the legislation to prevent this pipeline from operating. ok. the greens are so much for how are they going to warm and feed germany without fossil fuels in the next 10 years,

even if the so called transition is as short as they say, it really is going to be march longer. you still need to feed and war more than 18000000 people before we finish up your plan. also, i think the, the current fans contract ends in 2024. and the agreement that the, the, the german numerical russia has the green knew it is what was rocking out germany say over any kind of transit relationship. russia has with ukraine. i mean, again, amazing part the americans and germans agreed that they should extend 10 years up to 2024 for agreement between russian company and ukrainian company is quite amazing. and they didn't even include russia in this conversation to come up with this deal. so we're going to break it up in the mail. they

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yes, the location is off the bus . oh, so can you tell me that actually use the machine which it says to build me up with your vehicle? but yes, i would continue to tell you that that guy with a dinner came from a credit issued by both of us. i use the welcome at the cross up were all things are considered peter la bell. this is the home addition to remind you were discussing

some real news the the let's change gears gentlemen. here. we have the 2nd high, low on the 2nd high level meeting that the united states in china had. this is on the back of the disaster in anchorage earlier in the year. a lot of up language went into it from both sides and fences. that was intentional, it was a max melissa, and of course they're playing to their domestic audiences. but they both came away from it. probably with very little understanding, almost certainly no agreement. but there is the recognition that we have to really start talking and start talking seriously. am i wrong? maybe this is a opening for some realism here, or is this going to just spiral? we haven't hit bottom yet, but it's going to continue to spiral your thoughts. go ahead. you know,

i think it's going to continue to spiral because on the american side, we're not in the logical pregnant. we're in the laundry or ideology. i mean, from the big major point of view, it makes absolutely no sense for the united states to have a quarrel with china or to have a quarrel with russia. but logically, yes, these are authoritarian countries and by then keeps repeating every week that there is going to be a huge confrontation between democracy is and all the credit is on avoidable. you know, and if you says it's no dog, yes, it is no go because even, you know that way just you will be the 3rd. yes. you know, the russian bolsheviks who are absolutely, i go look at you will. they believed in peaceful coexistence with the soul. capitalist readings, then you, i, ga, the ultra liberal i, georgia, united states that use, i don't believe in it. you know, we have the 2nd crowd of american chinese talks. you know,

that was when to sherman, deputy secretary of state on the american side the chinese were put off by this because they expect that at least someone like anthony blamed if not mr. barbie so ok if they sound such a low level official, the chinese also represented by a whole level official found you know, the deputy foreign minister or china, the main, your foreign minister. and basically what did we hear? the chinese just said that the united states would stop if dangerous, if it did dangerous, because economically it's a disaster. i think everyone themselves and militarily, just because the states are trying to check chinese aggression in south china seas and east china seas. i mean, just look at the geography. chinese aggression in the south during the sea is prevented by country. what gave you tens of thousands of miles away from that,

right? how can this be? where is the want to hear glen go ahead of it because i mean the countries or at loggerheads, but i mean at least even in india is absolutely right to point out a lower level than probably should be if it wasn't appropriate. and i think that obviously the chinese that, that as a slight here, but there is a reckoning on both sides that did they, either we continue to spiral down with unintended consequences or sort of facing up to the fact that this is going to be a long log ahead, if we want to avoid a serious conflict including a military. com, go ahead. yeah, no, i think there's a recognition that they need diplomacy, but again, what was the policy achieve and how much rooms for maneuver is there? because us has been there opened that it will have the same format in purpose for diplomacy towards china. as with russia, which is of us will corporate all in areas where the us interest in all other areas

will seek to confront china and that's kind of limits the, the scope of diplomacy. and i agree to a large extent would be my, i don't think ology is the driving variable here. i think the u. s. it's rather it's instrumental for him on the policy because the, the cured, the strategies are openly based on global him on his much everything black and white. so the rice of china itself becomes the problem. it's not merely that there are some competing interest in china itself. that has to be cut down in size and sorry that was supposed to develop and grow under the wing of united states, you know, supply every little thing. good thing now is trying to taking this technological leadership, living industry and building infrastructure around the world is getting the growing footprints in global finance. and this is very problematic as the u. s. does not recognize eagles in a world based on global dominance. so it's the size of china, so which is the problem. but here's the diplomacy. we're trying to map out. our strategic interest was yours. can we mitigate or harmonize interest or at least

respect each other strategic interest and try to reduce the area of sarah rivalry in here. very mush clear that the child has to be cut down and, and that's why it's diplomacy. it's often expressed in the language of ultimatums and threats, which of course is very familiar to the russians. and so the cooperation doesn't pay with china making a lot of unilateral concessions. and again, hillary clinton, the famously wrote that, i don't want my grandchildren to grow up in the world live by china. so it's not simply that the r as in interest are always competing. it's the mere price of it. so i think maybe the chinese very defensive, the field, there's that they're being circled much like the russian. so that's good reasons. i mean, the u. s. s. launched economic war undermines economy military containment of china, which is military aspect. and also,

unless you think you're only interested in human rights, it's interference in hong kong again, young and both, which is not barely principled on human rights. there's also efforts to stabilize china. so it see all of this lecture. it's not simply trying to learn about china and make compromises, but rather to see it to, to undermine china. and i think in order to have proper diplomacy that back and really look at a strategic level, if the united states willing to move from unit to a multiple a system, it's not. i think they will only spiral out of control and diploma. they will have little meaning. ok, we get a demon, let me go to you. i mean, we can take it, leave that base value, then basing as made it clear that it would be having peaceful coexistence with the united states. specifically in the west, in general, be acceptable to them, but that's we don't see that coming out of washington. another western glenn is

framed that perfectly. the mere existence of china, the weight is day of rep because it is a read to germany and who to alleviate or address chinese rise and gemini, you have to have peaceful coexistence. and then i'm going to write a little bit more with the money because i'm always, he won't let them do it. that's the problem. you can't help people co exist. if you break it in an ideological setting. you know, the bro, my point of view, let me just call what the new york times rolled into 1000. well, so just 8 years ago, china is almost banging back was to show its peaceful al good intentions to what's safe. and actually the whole editorial, i think it was written by mr. was that was about how china was better than russia, and this was before crimea. this was before there was

a new in the domestic was new relations between the west and russia. and indeed, i mean, you know, the chinese course a peaceful rise of china. we are growing economically, but we're not going to invade anyone by willing to have actually, why would you mind buy went to give you a unit. that was the message from china. and what did they get to return? so, i mean, if the noted states are so concerned about from all of this live the bad ablation to the bad b r. i just based on, there was a creation around, isn't rolling in this. i mean, the whole idea of on call was be in the range between huge mainland china and the west. that's how this process. and then getting this, you do not the chinese, the west side. and the book about ideology here, talking about diplomacy. you know, unfortunately the united states is becoming an anti married for the chinese also.

good governance is not based on democracy as it is understand in the west. it's, it's based on the choosing the best. and somehow chinese credit been able to choose some very competent leaders, otherwise train that will not have become so comically successful. oh, cool because of the medical side, we have a choice between hillary clinton and donald trump for the state. you know where you were and i'm really talking in the states. and this is one of the reasons why diplomacy come to work here. these people are more creative. i mean, you have to be stupid to come to encourage and literature. they chinese, their, on their, on the merits of american democracy. and this is exactly what the, what tony blinking gave. it's very interesting, i'm glad team and brought that up here because again, you know, if we look at the, the, the, the rise of china getting into the world trade organization. and then,

you know, the hope that yeltsin would deliver russia to the west. i mean, all of these fantasies and dreams that you know, and it's particular, it's an american peculiarities that everybody wants to be like us and everyone wants to like us. okay. and it's all in tatters. it didn't work out the way we thought it would, which was any lucian in the 1st place. go ahead. yeah, and i think the other kind of hits, that's why they collapsed yet again at this meeting. because this recent meeting between the chinese and united states saying they have been china and america lecturing china again. and also china outlining always complains because from the united states perspective, china not respect, that is a uniform world where it's trying to remodel itself out to us. also position itself under the, you know, challenging is leadership. and also trying to solve excepting the so called rules based international order, in which the us makes rules for chinese to do. but it does

so it's so this created, it will explain a lot of the empire from, from the us. so we're trying to china on the other, it started to look towards us. well, in the way of a model s d, my point out as well. it's a political system can't really do much at the moment. it's very much polarized. they seem to be undergoing a cultural revolution technological they're, they're, they're, they're struggling as well. they're kind of me, it's in bad shape, interest structures and folding have this huge concentration of well, social economic fragmentation. even america allies, really, as we discussed with nor stream is aren't really taking their orders anymore. and so that they don't see the united states united states in relative decline, which is a reasonable conflict. terese. so, so why, why should they be lectured around by the united glenn people in china that remember the great cultural revolution?

and they saw how devastating it was for china and seeing traces of it emerge in the, in the, in the u. s. and the west in general, must be quite horrifying for them and everyone else, gentlemen, that's all the time we have here. i want to make my guess and, and here in moscow, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here. are see you next time. remember, the ah, me the news, the the know what we would you body and by the american heart while we're on by now i know i should know moment the

legal mon on my phone and then how did you move now, you know, but i do need an initiation from which i don't know how long the solar is being deeper than the no, i mean, i mean, i saw it and now it's been one on my in my name is in the old days before frank said, because the u. k. was attached to you, they could do it. other countries do,

which is to take all their debts and dump it into this giant shadow banking system that covers the world's largest trading glock. and you could kind of buy some time there because e, c, b is printing and buying and monetizing debt by the trillion. so christine the garden, literally just buying trillion control of the garbage debt. but now post rags that they don't have that way to wash the debts into the greater he, you laundromat. and so that is going to for the 1st time post bracket. debts are going to start to cause a lot of pain. me a new gold rushes underway, and gunner thousands of ill equipped workers are flocking to the goldfields, hoping to strike it. rich children are torn between gold and education. my family was very poor. i thought i was doing my best to get back to school, which still will have the strongest appeal the

furious protest, this really angry about tightening covert measures and mandatory health policies rally across western europe where the number of infection cases is still on the rise. elsewhere israel says it now has proof that there ran attack to tanker off the coast of oman, killing to last week. the claim sort of back by the u. s. and the u. k. a raising phase may be of an open conflict and also innovations in orthodontics. we get a glimpse that the cutting edge.