these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, but decent, and also he's a professor at the university of south eastern norway, as well as the author of great power politics in the 4th industrial revolution. and here in moscow, we cross to dmitri bob and she is a political analyst and editor in us, me, internet media project, or gentleman, cross talk roles that affect, that means you can jump anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. okay, let's go to glen 1st and low. much has been talked about the north stream and the gas pipeline connecting russia to the german market here. of course, in the american domestic context, it's a win for, even though they don't understand the context of the story that it was germany that actually wanted the pipeline in the 1st place. and it is a private initiative. it is not state the state. so, but you know, would be, if you look at some of the reactions in western media, this is, this is just giving the russians another chance to commit aggression and they chose weakness on the west part. i mean, there's

a bunch of mental misunderstanding of this story. here and unfortunately it's just feeling the worst possible fear mongering that we've been experiencing, particularly in the last 5 years. you're no, i agree. i think there's a big misunderstanding around it again pertaining to russia weapon for example, it's quite extreme again, you want to also have to keep in mind that the point that was a german initiative because they want to increase their energy security in order to in order to make sure that their, their industries remain competitive. energy security so much defined as reliable and cheap supply of energy. that's what the russians offer. so this was a deal between the russian and german company. and then the extent to which states was the see, there is also an interesting narrative because they're not actually a part of this deal. how to enter this whole. so i go off by my threatening or

blackmail in its own hours because well, the germans wanted more energy security. they went in sanctions against their i last and attempted to punish and obstruct or ability to increase their energy security. now this is the list of sale that if as well so they've been actually doing that make any real concessions and the pipeline, i think in my, on my day percent finished. so again, it might have been very specifically, this is not some generosity in the end of their, their punishment of germany and russia because they, they fail to achieve their objective. the pipeline is finished and they came to the conclusion is better to come out of this well, saving some face and allows us our relations with the germans and rushes and more so let's pretend we make a deal and that be between the americans and the germans. force affectively the us listing, bunch of conditions and it's the germans comply,

then they will stop punishing the germans. so it's not so much of the deal and blackmail it's, it's quite extraordinary about the but again, the, the feedback be really strange because i'm not sure what else they were supposed to do. those of us know the story, draw the same conclusion, deem of the interesting thing is that the trump administration and the by the mystery, they kept invoking ukraine their new found friend here. but at the same time, the trumping ministration. and even people within the, by the ministration or saying instead of buying russian gas wanting to buy the american l n g, which of course begs the question, well, what about your friend the ukranian. ok. i mean, none of this story makes any sense whatsoever. if you give it a western context, go ahead. well, unfortunately, it's not just the american side, you know, in germany in france, britain, you have roughly the same absurd claims. you know,

i'm just coaching. give is. the german newspaper. mrs. merkel has decreed ukraine. i think this paper that everyone was political in the united states. and though this article was republished in the, in, in europe, in the u. k. for example, daily, expressly published if someone named maximilian turner call a former advisor to the british defense ministry. she said, he wrote in political that basically, while the united states will be heading a war with china to think about the time in the war with china, poor jim could attack europe and just take your defense just because the space will be absorbed in a wall with china and all of this because over the last few project last year to because it will give money to portion so which would be able to effect i'm vote and

just watching political a us, china war would likely have so most, if not all us economic and military capability and consequently came on mine. it's crazy ability to provide deterrence in europe. and because of that such to provide water with the much warrant for a peculiar to remedy rushes defeat at the end of the cold war. in the 91, i mean the, if this is broken, then what is and the problem is that the people why such union pay a lot, guys from the street. you know, they are form advisors to the british defense ministry of their hi, blaze us a few show such as far cause, you know, she, she made similar claims about ukraine being sold out to the, to the russia and just shows you how absurd the western media and the western political watts have become the problem is the more essential people. they also have to change their opinions because there is such pressure from and say army

washer. they came to that for the germans. the chance to ship from the sheed you was read would you believe? you know, so, but until recently i started making claims that the german you will have to punish russia if russia interprets that construction or not came to i think i and green light for. busy for pressure in ukraine, so i don't know where the some show that you will stop because if you know, so glen color put this all in contact. the last couple of years, been ramping rabbit anti russian offensive that they've been going on, particularly emanating from nato. i mean, they interpret this as a defeat, so i mean, this very powerful unity, unity, unity. they keep repeating over and over. i guess there really isn't. there is also, it's really kind of laughing, a facade here at the end of the day,

you need reliable, cheap energy, and all of their nonsense, of all their, their, their propaganda war just goes into copies. go ahead. the core of this propaganda though, it is the key arguments which everyone agrees on and observe to begin with, even the germans and americans, they all agree on this, on the mental thing that they all have to serve you crazy, right of transit. now this is repeated over and over again. right? transit means all russian gas to your brushing your, your graph, right? how this transitive through its territory and collect billions of dollars every year. it's quite an absurd argument against russia has any will. first of all, this pipeline makes perfect economic sense. the fact that they have to pay the billions of dollars every year to the greens means about the germans and the russell. something again from, from, from cutting out the middle and,

but also it makes much more reliable. and this is why the germans initiated, but still they use pushing with arguments, russia unreliable supply, which means europe teams to cut her lines from russia. well, the russia, ukraine, unreliable transit state and would like douglas reliable, it's so this, this is not. but again, this is interpretive of an energy weapon if they deny ukraine their rights of transit because they have this divine right to have russian gas goes through their territory. and it's, it's quite extraordinary and even make it worse. over the past the years, ukraine has made great attempts to cut all social and economic ties to russia to reduce all dependence on russia. mean everything, binding its books, the stopping flies across the board. and the us every turn offloads, this liberating and so for russia, but this one effort by russia to reduce its reliance on energy transferred through

ukraine is deemed to be criminal. and again, consensus across the board. this makes perfect sense is, is quite extraordinary where this comes from him. ok, let's, let's take these, the, the nato argument, you know, needs this, this is a win for, he needs the money. ok, as if other countries don't want russian gas because they do. so i mean, if it is so very, very important to the kremlin, why would they cut off the supply? see that their logic just fails on every single metric? go ahead. oh, yes, i agree with what glen just also because okay, let's take the figures. ukraine gets real rush and friendship between $2.00 and $3000000000.00 a year. sorry about the duration of your credit was near 50000000. it was 4948. now it's less than 40 of people went to work in russia and the european union. well, the g and glad whole reduces the population, but still it's a big country,

it's bigger than poland. if it is, of course, bigger than hungry and check republic, it's a huge country. and the, and the top 3000000000, those with a lot feed. what could feed that was used in the russian market and being a real bridge between russia and the you that could feed 40000000 people. but then you are a human ukraine that installed and so violently in the 2012, sorry, 2014. they're doing everything took up any time to russia. i mean, just a people may not know it in the west. zelinski imposed sanctions on the hermitage. museum in st. petersburg. zelinski is both sanctions on moscow state university. you live in ukraine. you can't cope with these old nations. so this is

the 1st argument. the 2nd argument is called you ok. the german green part u. s. as we learn from the national interest, insists that the, you know the pipeline to be commissioned and they initiate the legislation to prevent this pipeline from operating. ok, do for the greens are so much 40, how are they going to warm and feed germany without fossil fuels the next 10 years, even if the so called transition is a short as they say it really is going to be march longer. you still need to feed and watch more than 18000000 people before we finish up your plan. also, i think the, the current fans contract ends in 2024. and the agreement that the, the, the germans, numeric russia has the green knew what is, what was rocking out germany say over any kind of

transit relationship. russia has with ukraine. i mean, again, amazing part the americans and germans agreed that they should extend 10 years up to 2024 for agreement between russian company and ukrainian company is quite amazing. and they didn't even include russia in these conversations to come up with this deal. so like, we're going to break the meal, they say over the i'm at kaiser. what more of my guide to financial survival? this is a hedge fund. it's a device used by professional county lags to earn money. that's right. these hedge funds are completely not accountable. and we're just adding more,

more to them totally, the stabilize the global economy. you need to protect yourself and get inform. wildcard me in the old days before brag said, because the u. k. was attached to you. they could do it. other countries do, which is to take all their data and dump it into this giant shadow banking system that covers the world's largest trading block. and you could kind of buy some time there because the tv is printing and buying and monetizing debt by the trillion. christine the garden, literally just buying trillions and trying to garbage debt, but now post bracket, they don't have that way to wash the debts into the greater he you laundromat. and so that is going to for the 1st time post bracket. debts are going to start to

cause a lot of pain. i believe it doesn't look like this is of all the old what you actually puzzle to can you through that actually used and she says as bill milk with your siegel but yes, i would have continued to tell you because it was in the sky when the school from cut up by she was in

the welcome at the cross that were all things are considered. peter la bell. this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news the the the let's change gears gentlemen here team. we have the 2nd high level of the 2nd high level meeting, the benighted states in china had. this is on the back of the disaster an anchorage earlier in the year. a lot of up language went into them from both sides and fences . that was intentional. it was a max, melissa, and of course they're playing to their domestic audiences. but they both came away from it. probably with very little understanding, almost certainly no agreement. but there is the recognition that we have to really

start talking and start talking seriously. am i wrong? maybe this is a opening for some realism here, or is this going to just spiral? cuz we haven't hit bottom yet, but it's going to continue to spiral your thoughts? go ahead. i think is going to continue to spiral because on the american side, we're not in the logical pregnant. we're in the laundry or ideology. i mean, from the big major point of view, it makes absolutely no sense for the united states to have a quarrel with china or to have a quarrel with russia, but ideologically, yes, these are authoritarian countries and by then keeps repeating every week that there is going to be a huge confrontation between democracy is and all the craig regimes, if unavoidable, you know, and if you says it's no dog, yes it's, it is no dog because even, you know, that way, just you will be the 3rd. yes. you know, the russian bolsheviks who are absolutely,

i go with the will. they believed in peaceful coexistence, where the gold capitalist readings, then you, i, ga, the ultra liberal, georgia united states and you, they don't believe in it. you know, we have the 2nd crowd of american chinese talks. you know, that was when sharon, debbie, just sectors. they stayed on the american side. the chinese were put off by this because they expect that at least someone like anthony blamed if not mr. barbie so ok. if they sound such a lower level official, the chinese also represented by war level official found, you know, the deputy foreign minister or china, the main foreign minister. and basically, what did we hear? the chinese just said that the united states should stop is dangerous. or if it's dangerous, because economically it's a disaster. i think everyone themselves and militarily, it's a just because the states are trying to check chinese aggression in

south china seas and east china seas. i mean, just look at the geography chinese aggression in the south china sea is prevented by a country with a few tens of thousands of miles away from that. right. how can this be, where is the water here? glen? go ahead of it because i mean what countries or at loggerheads, but i mean at least even in india is absolutely right to point out a lower level than probably should be if it wasn't appropriate. and i think that obviously the chinese that, that as a slight here, but there is a reckoning on both sides, that it's either we continue to spiral down with unintended consequences or start facing up to the fact that this is going to be a long log ahead if we want to avoid a serious conflict including a military. com, go ahead. yeah, no, i think there's a recognition that they need diplomacy. but again,

what's the policy achieve and how much rooms for maneuver is there? because us has been there open that it will have the same format in purpose for diplomacy towards china. us with russia, which is that us will corporate all in areas where the us interest in, in all other areas will seek to come from china. and that's kind of limits the, the scope of diplomacy. and i agree to a large extent would be my, i don't think ology is the driving variable here. i think the u. s. it's rather it's instrumental for him on the policy because the, with the care, the strategies are openly based on global him on his much everything black and white. so the rice of china and so becomes the problem, is not merely that there are some competing interest in china itself that has to be cut down in size and sorry that was supposed to develop and grow under the wing of united states supply. every little thing, good thing now is trying to taking this technological leadership, living industry and building infrastructure around the world is getting the growing

footprints in global finance. and this is very problematic as the u. s. does not recognize eagles in a world based on global dominance. so it's the size of china itself, which is the problem. but here's the diplomacy. we're trying to map out. our strategic interest was yours. can we mitigate or harmonize interest or at least respect each other strategic and just try to reduce the area for sarah rivalry in here. very mush clear that the child has to be cut down and, and that's why there is often expressed in the language ultimatums and threats which of course, is very familiar to the russians. and so the corporation doesn't entail china making a lot of unilateral concessions. and again, this is hillary clinton, the famously wrote that i don't want my grandchildren to grow up in the world lead by china. so it's not simply that the r as in interest are always competing. it's the mere price of it. so i think this as maybe a chinese very defensive the field,

there's that they're being circled much like the russian. so that's good reasons. i mean, the u. s. s. launched economic war undermines economy military containment of china, which is nuclear aspect. and also, unless you think you're only interested in human rights, it's interference in hong kong, young and both, which is not merely principled on human rights. there's also efforts to the stimulus, china, so it's, it's all of this lecture. it's not simply trying to learn about china and may compromise that, but rather to see it to, to undermine china. and i think in order to have proper diplomacy that think back and really look at a strategic level, or if the united states willing to move from unit to a multiple a system. it's not. i think they will only spiral out of control. and diplomacy will have little meaning. ok, we get a demon. let me go to you. i mean,

we can take it, leave the face value basing as made it clear that it would be having a peaceful coexistence with the united states. specifically in the west, in general, be acceptable to them, but that's we don't see that coming out of washington. another western glenn is framed that perfectly. the mere existence of china, the weight is day of rep because it is a read to germany and who to alleviate or address chinese rise and gemini, you have to have peaceful coexistence. and then i'm going to live a little bit more with the money because i'm always, he won't let them do it. that's the problem. you can't help people co exist. if you bring it in an ideological setting. you know, the bro, my point of view, let me just called what the new york times rolled into 1000. well, so just a few years ago, china is almost banging back was to show its peaceful and good intentions to what i

did. and actually the whole editorial, i think it was written by mr. was that was about how china was better than russia and this was before crimea. this was before. ringback there was a new in the domain, it was new relations between the west and russia. and indeed, i mean, you know, the chinese course a peaceful rise of china. we are growing economically, but by not going to invade anyone by willing to have actually by willing to give you money by went to give you a unit. that was the message from china. and what did they get the richer? so, i mean, if the united states are so concerned about all this live the bad publicity of the back yard and i just base and there was i create and around is rolling in this. i mean, the whole idea of hong kong was being a bridge between huge mainland china and the west. that's how this process and then

getting this, you do know the chinese, the west side and the book and about ideology here, talking about diplomacy. you know, unfortunately they're not just becoming an anti married for the chinese also. good governance is not based on democracy as it is understand in the west it's, it's based on the choosing the best. and somehow chinese credit been able to choose some very competent leaders, otherwise chain that will not have become so we cannot make any successful. oh cool . we have a medical side with choice between hillary clinton and donald trump for the seat. you know, when you, when i was, and i'm really talking in the states and this is one of the reasons why diplomacy come to work here. these people are more creative. i mean, you have to be stupid to come to encourage and literature. the chinese are there on the, on the marriage of american democracy. and this is exactly what the,

what tony blink. indeed, it's very interesting. i'm glad i brought that up here because again, you know, if we look at the, the, the, the rise of china get getting into the world trade organization. and then you know, the hope that yeltsin will deliver russia to the west. i mean, all of these fantasies and dreams that you know, and it's particular, it's an american peculiarities that everybody wants to be like us and everyone wants to like us. okay. and it's all in tatters. it didn't work out the way we thought it would, which was any lucian in the 1st place. go ahead. yeah. and i think the other kind of why they collapsed yet again at this meeting because of this recent meeting between the chinese and united states, you're saying they have been china and america lecturing china again. and also china outlining or complaints. because from the united states perspective, china not respect, that is

a unipolar world where it's tried to remodel itself out to us. also position itself under the us, not challenging is leadership. and also trying to thought, excepting the so called rules based international order, in which the us makes rules for trying to do. but it does. so it's so this created, it will explain a lot of the apartment from, from the china, the china, on the other hand, is starting to look towards us. well, in the way of a model s d, my point out as well. it's a political system can't really do much at the moment. it's very much polarized the seem to be undergoing a cultural revolution. technological they're, they're, they're, they're struggling as well. they're economy, it's in bad shape. infrastructure imploding, you have this huge concentration of well, social economic fragmentation. even america, allies, really, as we discussed with nor stream is really taking the order anymore. and so that

they don't see the united states united states in relative decline, which is a reasonable conclusion to reach so. so why, why should they be lectured around by the united glenn people in china that remember the great cultural revolution. and they saw how devastating it was for china and seeing traces of emerge in the, in the, in the u. s. and the west in general must be quite horrifying for them and everyone else. right gentlemen, that's all the time we have here. i want to make my guess and slow, and here in moscow, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here. are see you next time. remember the ah. driven time dream shaped by those with the in

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ah protest says furious that tightening coven matches. mandatory health. paul says raleigh, across western europe was a number of infections, is still on the rise as well as europe. races against restrictions. covert cases in the united states increased in 6 poles in july, while politicians are being sending mixed messages about how to deal with content make leaving many confuse. there is a political situation involved in it. i just wish you would come around. they could get the politics out not.