moment thank you so much for stopping by. we'll see soon. the look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except when the shorter does that conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. the point obviously is to create truck rather than fear take on various jobs with artificial intelligence, we'll summoning the theme in a robot must protect its own existence with

the me ah ah, i use in the old days before frank said, because the u. k was attached to you, they could do it other countries do, which is to take all their data and dump it into the giant shadow banking system that covers the world's largest trading block. and you could kind of buy some time

there because the c, b is printing and buying and monetizing debt by the trillion. so christine the garden, literally just buying trillion control to the garbage debt, but now post brag that they don't have that way to wash the debts into the greater he, you laundromat. and so that is going to, for the 1st time post bracket. debts are going to start to cause a lot of pain. ah ah, ah hello, we welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle. we are witnessing a significant and irreversible shift in the international system. is undeniable. we

live in multiple the world to example. suffice. the bite administration is inability to hold the north stream to. and the recent china us meeting great power politics is back. the me to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess, but decent, and also he's a professor at the university of south eastern norway, as well as the author of great power politics in the 4th industrial revolution. and here in moscow, we cross to dmitri bob and she is a political and often editor it in us, me, internet media project, or a gentleman, cross talk rules that affect, that means you can jump in and want, and i always appreciate it. okay, let's go to glen 1st enough, slow, much has been talked about the, the north stream and the gas pipeline connecting russia to the german market. here, of course, is in the american domestic context. it's a win for,

even though they don't understand the context of the story that it was germany that actually wanted the pipeline in the 1st place. and it is a private initiative. it is not state the state. so, but you know, it would be if you look at some of the reactions in western media, this is, this is just giving the russians another chance to commit aggression. they chose weakness on the west part. i mean, there's a bunch of mental misunderstanding of this story. here and unfortunately, she's feeling the worst possible fear mongering that we've been experiencing, particularly in the last 5 years. no, i agree. i think that's a big misunderstanding around it again pertaining to russia weapon for example, it's quite extreme. again, you want to also have to keep in mind that the point that was a german initiative, again, they want to to increase their energy security in order to in order to make sure

that their, their industries remain competitive. energy security is so much defined as reliable and cheap supply of energy. that's what the russians offer. so this was a deal between the russian and german company. and then the next into states was the see. it is also an interesting narrative because they're not actually a part of this deal. how to enter this fall. so i go off by my threatening or blackmail in its own hours. because while the germans wanted more energy security, they went sanctions against an attempt to punish and obstruct or ability to increase their energy security. now this is saying that if as well, so they've been actually doing to make any real concessions and the pipeline, i think in my on my day percent finish. so, and then again, bite has been very specifically, this is not some generosity in the end of their, their punishment of germany and russia because they,

they fail to achieve their objectives. the pipeline is finished and they came to the conclusion is better to come out of this will saving some phase and allow this our relations with the germans and russians and more so let's pretend, you know, we make a deal and that deal with between the americans and the germans also effectively the us listing, bunch of conditions and it's the germans comply, then they will stop punishing the germans. so it's not so much of the deal and blackmail it's, it's quite extraordinary about the but again, the, the feedback the really strange because i'm not sure what else they were supposed to do. those of us know the story, draw the same conclusion, deem of the interesting thing is that the trump administration and the by the mystery, been kept invoking ukraine their new found friend here. but at the same time, the trump administration and even people within the bite administration or saying

and better buying russian gas when you bought the american l. n g. which of course begs the question, well, what does your friends ukrainian ok, i mean, none of this story makes any sense whatsoever. if you give it a western context, go ahead. well, unfortunately, it's not just the american side, you know, in germany, in from, in britain you have roughly the same absurd claims. you know, i'm just coaching. give is. the german newspaper. mrs. merkel has depraved ukraine. i think just make sure that everyone was political in doing that space. and though this article was republished in the, in, in europe, in the u. k, for example, daily, expressly published if someone named maximilian ter holler, a former advisor to the british defense ministry. she said, he wrote in political that basically, while the united states will be having

a war with china, think about having a war with china. poor jenn could attack europe and just take your defense just because the space will be absorbed in a wall with china. and all of these because over the last few project last him to because it will give money to put so which would be able to after i'd vote, can just and watch and political a us, china war would likely absorb most if not all us economic and military capability and consequently cable undermine its credibility to provide deterrents in europe. and because of that such, it will provide you with the march law for a peculiar to remedy your ashes, defeat at the end of the cold war in 1891. i mean, if this is broken, then what is and the problem is that the people who are such a pinion, they are not guys from the street. you know, they are form advisors to the british defense ministry at their high placed us

official such as far cause, you know, she, she made similar claims about ukraine being sold out to the, to the russia and just shows you how absurd the western media and the western political boss have become the problem is the more essential people they also have to change their opinions because there is such pressure from insanity army washer. they came to that for the germans. the chance to ship from the sheed you was relatively, you know, so, but until recently i started making claims that the german, you will have to punish russia if russia interprets the construction of a lot to him to. i think i and green light for. busy for pressure in ukraine, so i don't know where the some show that you will stop because if you know, so glen, kind of put this all in contact. the last couple of years,

been ramp rabbit, anti russian offensive that they've been going on. particularly emanating from nato. i mean they interpret this as a defeat. so i mean there's very powerful unity, unity, unity. they keep repeating over and over. i guess there really isn't. there is also, it's really kind of laugh in a facade here at the end of the day, you need reliable, cheap energy. ok, and all of their nonsense of all their, their, their propaganda war. this goes into, can go ahead. the core of this propaganda is the key argument, which everyone agrees on which is observable to begin with, even the germans and americans, they all agree on this under mental thing that they all have to serve you crazy, right? of transit. now this is repeated over and over again, right? so that means all russian gas to your,

brushing your right to have this transitive through its territory and collect billions of dollars every year. is quite an absurd argument against russia has any will. first of all, this pipeline makes perfect economic sense. the fact that they have to pay the bill of dollars every year to the greens means about the german then the rest of the game from, from, from cutting out the middle man. but also it makes much more reliable. and this is why the germans initiated, but still they use pushing with arguments of russia unreliable supply, which means europe teams to cut her lines from russia. well, the russia, ukraine, unreliable transit state and would like douglas reliable? it's this, this is not. but again, this is interpretive of an energy weapon. if they deny ukraine, they're right. the transit because they have this divine right to have russian gas goes through their territory. and it's, it's quite extraordinary and even make it worse. over the years,

ukraine has made great attempts to cut all social and economic ties to russia to reduce all dependence on russia ever since banding its books, the stopping flies across the board and the us every turn applause, this liberating itself, russia. but this one effort by russia to reduce its reliance on energy transferred through ukraine is deemed to be criminal. and again, consensus across the board. this makes perfect sense is, is quite extraordinary where this comes from. it. ok, but let's take these, the, the nato argument. you know, needs, this is a win for needs the money. ok as if other countries don't want russian gas because they do so. i mean if it is so very, very important to the kremlin, why would they cut off the supply? see that their logic is fails on every single metric. go ahead. oh, yes,

i agree with what glen just also because okay, let's take the figures. ukraine gets real, rush and friendship between $2.00 and $3000000000.00 a year. so if i was the population of ukraine was near in 50000000, it was 4948. now it's less than 40 people went to work in russia and the european union. the g and glad whole reduces the population. but still it's a big country. it's bigger than poland, if it is, of course, bigger than hungry and check republic, it's a huge country. and the, and the top $3000000000.00 with a lot feed it. what could feed it was used in the russian market and being a real bridge between russia and the even that could feed 40000000 people. but then you are human ukraine that installed and so violently in 2012, sorry, 2014. they're doing everything and took up any time to rush. i mean, just

a people may not do it in the west zelinski imposed sanctions on the hermitage museum in saint petersburg. the landscape is both sanctions on the moscow state university. if you live in your grades, you can't have all those with these overlays ations. so this is the 1st argument. the 2nd argument is called you ok. the german green part u. s. as we learn from the national interest insists that the, you know, the pipeline should be commissioned and they initiate the legislation to prevent this pipeline from operating. ok. the greens are so much for how are they going to warm and feed germany without fossil fuels? the next 10 years, even if the so called transition is as short as they say, it really is going to be march longer. you still need to feed and war more than

18000000 people before we finish up your plan. also, i think the, the current trends of contract infant 2024 and the agreement that the, the, the germans, numeric russia has the green new. what is, what, what, what rocky, what our germany say over any kind of transit relationship. russia has with ukraine, i mean, again, amazing part the americans and germans agreed that they should extend 10 years up to 2024 for agreement between russian company and the premium company is quite amazing. and they didn't even include russia in this conversation to come up with this deal. so we're going to break it up in the mail. they say the

the me the news. welcome at the cross, were all things are considered peter le bell. this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news. the the let's change gears gentlemen here, team us. we have the 2nd high law of the 2nd high level meeting with the united states in china had. this is on the back of be disaster in anchorage earlier in the year. a lot of tough language went into it from both sides and fences. that was intentional. it was a max melissa,

and of course they're playing to their domestic audiences. but they both came away from it probably with very little understanding, almost certainly no agreement. but there is the recognition that we have to really start talking and start talking seriously. am i wrong? maybe this is a opening for some realism here, or is this going to just spiral? cuz we haven't hit bottom yet, it's going to continue to spiral your thoughts. go ahead. i think there's going to continue to spiral because on the american side, we're not in the logical pregnant. we're in the laundry or ideology. i mean, from the big major point of view, it makes absolutely no sense for the united states to have a quarrel with china or have a quarrel with russia. but i got what you call it. yes, these are 30 period countries and by the teams revision every week that there is going to be a huge confrontation between democracy is and all the craig regimes,

if unavoidable, you know, and if he says it's no joke. yes, it is. no, go, because even, you know that way, just you will be the 3rd. yes. you know, the russian bolsheviks who are absolutely, i go all the will. they believed in peaceful coexistence with the so called capitalist readings. then you, i ga the outer deeper like georgia, united states and use a don't believe in it. you know, we have the 2nd crowd of american chinese talks. you know, that was when sharon, deputy secretary of state from the american side. the chinese were put off by this because they expect that at least someone like anthony blink and if not, mr. barbie so ok. if they sound such a low level official, the chinese also represented by low level official found, you know, the deputy foreign minister or china, the main, your foreign minister. and basically what did we hear? the chinese just said that they would stop is dangerous if indeed dangerous,

because it can only really, it's a disaster. i think everyone themselves and militarily, instead just because they're not the states are trying to check chinese aggression, even south china seas and east china seas. i mean, just look at the geography, chinese aggression, you know, the south china sea is prevented by a country what a, the, you tens of thousands of miles away from that, right? how can this be, where is the water here? glen, go to go ahead and jump in because i mean the countries or at loggerheads, but i mean at least even in india is absolutely right to point out a lower level than probably should be it wasn't appropriate. and i think that obviously the chinese that, that as a slight here, but there is a reckoning on both sides that did it. they either we continue to spiral down with

unintended consequences or start facing up to the fact that this is going to be a long log ahead. if we want to avoid a serious conflict including a military. com, go ahead. yeah, no, i think there's a recognition that they need diplomacy, but again, what, what are the policy achieve and how much rooms for maneuver is there? because do us has been there open that it will have the same format in purpose for diplomacy towards china as i had with russia, which is of us will corporate all in areas where the us interest in all other areas will seem to confront china. and that's kind of a limit the scope of diplomacy and i agree to a large extent would be my, i don't think i'd ology is the driving variable here. i think the u. s. it's rather it's instrumental for him on the policy because the care, the strategies are openly based on global hit him on his much really black and white. so the rise of china itself becomes the problem is not merely that there are some competing interest in china itself. that has to be cut down in size and sorry

that was supposed to develop and grow under the wing of united states, you know, supply every little thing good with you now is trying to thinking this technological leadership, living industry and building infrastructure on the world is getting the growing footprints in global finance, and this is very problematic us. the u. s. does not recognize equals in a world based on global dominance. so it's the size of china. so which is the problem in diplomacy? we're trying to map out. our strategic interests was yours, can we mitigate or harmonize interest or at least respect each other strategic and just try to reduce the area of rivalry, but in here, very mush. clear that the time has to be cut down then and that's why it's diplomacy is often expressed in the language, ultimatums and threats, which of course, is very familiar to the russians. and so the cooperation doesn't entail china making a lot of unilateral confessions. and again,

hillary clinton famously wrote that, i don't want my grandchildren to grow up in the world live by china. so it's not simply that the interests are always competing. it's the mere price of it. so i think maybe the chinese very defensive, the field. there's that they're being circled much like the russian. so that's good reasons. i mean, the u. s. s. launched economic war undermines economy military containment of china, which is nuclear aspect. and also, unless you think you're only interested in human rights interference in hong kong again, young and both, which is not barely principled on human rights. there's also efforts to the stimulus china. so it's, it's all of this lecture. it's not simply trying to learn about china and make compromises, but rather to see it to, to undermine china. and i think in order to have proper diplomacy that can really look at

a strategic level or if the united states willing to move from unit to multiple or system. if not, i think they will only spiral out of control. and diplomacy will have little meaning. ok, we get a demon, let me go to you. i mean, we can take it, leave that base value, then basing as made it clear that it would be a peaceful coexistence with the united states. specifically in the west, in general, be acceptable to them. but that's we don't see that coming out of washington. another western glenn is framed that perfectly. the mere existence of china, the weight is day of rep because it is a read to germany and who to alleviate or address chinese rise and gemini, you have to have peaceful coexistence. and then i'm going to buy a little bit more would be money because id always. he won't let them do it. that's the problem. you can have people co exist and if you break it in an ideological

setting name, you know, the bro, my point of view, let me just call it what the new york times rolled into 1000. well, so just 8 years ago, china is almost banging back. was to show its peaceful al good intentions to what i did. and actually the whole editorial, i think it was written by mr. was that was about how china was better than russia. and this was before crimea. this was before there was a new in the domain, it was new relations between the west and russia. and indeed, i mean, you know, the chinese course a peaceful rise of china. we are growing economically, but by not going to invade anyone by willing to have actually i wanted to give you mine by went to give you that unit. that was the message from china. and what did they get the richer? so, i mean, if they're not a states, so concerned about all these live, the bad completion of the bad b,

r i just states and there was a creation around, isn't rolling in this. i mean, the whole idea of hong kong was d. n. a range between huge mainland china and the west. that's how they see to prosper. and then jillian, this you do not the chinese, the west side. and the book about ideology here, talking about diplomacy. you know, unfortunately they're not just becoming an anti married for the chinese also. good governance is not based on democracy as it is understand in the west it's, it's based on the choosing the best. and somehow chinese credit been able to choose some very competent leaders, otherwise train them will not have become so incrementally successful. oh cool because they're very concise with choice between hillary clinton and donald trump for the seat. you know, when you, when i was, and i'm really talkers in the states,

and this is one of the reasons why diplomacy come to work here. these people are more creative. i mean, you have to be stupid to come to encourage and literature. they chinese, they are on their own, the merits of american democracy. and this is exactly what the, what tony blinking gave. it's very interesting, i'm glad team and brought that up here because again, you know, if we look at the, the, the, the rise of china getting into the world trade organization. and then, you know, the hope that yeltsin would deliver russia to the west. i mean, all of these fantasies and dreams that you know, and it's particular, it's an american peculiarities that everybody wants to be like us and everyone wants to like us. okay. and it's all in tatters. it didn't work out the way we thought it would, which was any lucian in the 1st place. go ahead. yeah, i think the other kind of hits. that's why they collapsed yet again at this meeting

. because this recent meeting between the chinese and united states, you have the same, the china and america lecturing china again. and also china outlining always complains because from the united states perspective, china not respected this unipolar world, where it's trying to remodel itself out to us. also position itself under the u. s . not challenging is leadership. and also trying to solve excepting the so called rules based international order, in which the us makes rules for chinese to do about adult life. so it's so this created, it will explain a lot of the empire from, from the us, china, china, on the other hand, it started to look towards us. well, in the way of a model s d, my point out as well. it's a political system can't really do much at the moment. it's very much polarized they seem to be undergoing a cultural revolution. technological they're, they're, they're, they're struggling as well. they're kind of me, it's in bad shape. infrastructure imploding,

you have this huge concentration of wealth. social economic fragmentation, even america allies, really, as we discussed with nor stream is really taking their orders anymore. and so that they don't see the united states united states in relative decline, which is a reasonable conclusion to reach so. so why, why should they be lectured around by the united glenn people in china that remember the great cultural revolution. and they saw how devastating it was for china and seeing traces of it emerge in the, in the, in the u. s. and the west in general, must be quite horrifying for them and everyone else, gentlemen, that's all the time we have here. i want to make my guess and slow. and here in moscow, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here are gc, next time. remember, the ah,

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