shift in the international system is undeniable. we live in multiple the world to example. suffice the bike administrations, inability to hold the north stream too. and the recent china us meeting great power politics is back. the me to discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guests when decent and also use a professor at the university of south eastern norway, as well as the author of great power politics in the 4th industrial revolution. and here in moscow we prostitute dmitri barbara, she is a political analyst and editor it in us, me, internet media project or a gentleman, cross talk roles and effect. that means you can jump anytime you want, and i always appreciate it. okay, let's go to glen person. flow much has been talked about the, the north stream and the gas pipeline, connecting russia to the german market. here. of course, in the american domestic context, it's a win for of who,

even though they don't understand the context of the story that it was germany that actually wanted the pipeline in the 1st place. and it is a private initiative. it is not state the state. so, but you know, it would be if you look at some of the reactions in western media, this is, this is just giving the russians another chance to commit aggression and they chose weakness on the west part. i mean, there's a bunch of mental misunderstanding of this story here, and unfortunately, she's feeling the worst possible fear mongering that we've been experiencing and particularly in the last 5 years. no, i agree. i think that's a big misunderstanding around it again pertaining to russia weapon, for example, if it's quite extreme again, you want to also have to keep in mind that the point that was the german initiative, again, they want to to increase their energy security in order to in order to make sure

that their, their industries remain competitive. energy security is so much defined as reliable and cheap supply of energy. that's what the russians offer. so this was a deal between the russian and german company. and then the next into the united states was to see that is also an interesting narrative because they're not actually a part of this deal. how to enter this fall. so i go off by my threatening or blackmail in its own hours. because while the germans wanted more energy security, they went in sanctions against an attempt to punish and obstruct or ability to increase their energy security. now this is the sale that this as well. so they've been actually doing to make any real concessions and the pipeline. i think you now and dave percent finished so and then again, bike has been very specifically, this is not some generosity in the end of their, their punishment of germany and russia because they,

they fail to achieve their objectives. the pipeline is finished and they came to the conclusion is better to come out of this will saving some phase and allows us our relations with the germans and rushes and more so let's pretend, you know, we make a deal and deal with between the americans and the germans or us listing conditions . and if the germans comply, then they will stop punishing the germans. so it's not so much of the deal and the black male is quite extraordinary about that. but again, the, the feedback the really strange because i'm not sure what else they were supposed to do. those of us know the story, draw the same conclusion daemon. the interesting thing is that the trump administration and the by the mystery, they kept invoking ukraine their new found friend here. but at the same time, the trumping ministration, and even people within the, by the ministration or saying and better buying russian gas when you bought the

american l. n. g. which of course begs the question, well, what about your friends? ukrainian. ok. i mean, it, none of the story makes any sense whatsoever. if you give it a western context, go ahead. well, unfortunately, it's not just the american side, you know, in germany, in france, in britain you have roughly the same absurd claims. you know, i'm just caught in the german newspaper. mrs. merkel has depraved ukraine. i think just make sure that everyone was political in the united states. and though this article was republished in the, in, in europe, in the u. k, for example, daily, expressly published someone named maximilian ter holler a former adviser to the british defense ministry. she said he wrote in political that basically, while the united states will be having a war with china,

think about having a war with china. poor jim could attack europe and just take your defense just because the space will be absorbed in the war with china and all of this because over the last year project last year to because it will give money to portion. so which would be able to have that, i'm quote and just and quote, and political a us, china war will likely have so most if not all us economic and military capability. and consequently, caveat undermine its credibility to provide deterrence in europe. and because of that such, it will provide you with the march law for a peculiar to ramp your ashes, defeat at the head of the cold war in the 91. i mean, even if this is more insane than what is and the problem is that the people who are such binion, they are not guys from the street. you know, they are form advisors to the british defense ministry. their high placed us

official, such as far costs, you know, she, she made similar claims about ukraine being sold out to the, to the russia and just shows you how absurd the western media and the western political was becoming. the problem is the more essential people, they also have to change their opinions because there is such pressure from inside the army washer. they came to that for the germans chance to ship from the she'd you was read. would you believe, you know, so, but until recently i started making claims that the german you will have to punish russia. give russia interprets the construction of a lot to him to i think i and green light for. busy for pressure in ukraine, so i don't know where the some show that you will stop because if you know, so glen color put this all in contact. the last couple of years been rammed that

rabbit anti russian offensive that they've been going on. particularly emanating from nato. i mean they interpret this as a defeat. so i mean there's this very powerful unity, unity, unity. they keep repeating over and over. i guess it really isn't. there is also, it's really kind of laugh in a facade here at the end of the day, you need reliable, cheap energy and all of their nonsense, of all their, their, their propaganda war just goes into cavities. go ahead. when the core of this propaganda though it is the key argument which everyone agrees on which is absurd to begin with, even the germans and americans, they all agree on this under mental thing that they all have to serve you crazy, right of transit. now this is repeated over and over again, right? it means all russian gas to your,

brushing your right to have this transitive through its territory and collect billions of dollars every year. that is, it's quite an absurd argument against russia has any will. first of all, this pipeline makes perfect economic sense. the fact that it has to pay the billions of dollars every year to the greens means about the germans and the rest of the game from, from, from cutting out the middle man. but also it makes much more reliable. and this is why the germans initiated but still they use pushing with arguments, russia unreliable supply, which means europe teams to cut her lines and russia, well, the russia, ukraine, unreliable transit state and would like douglas reliable? it's this, this is not. but again, this is interpretive of an energy weapon if they deny ukraine their rights of transit because they have this divine right to have russian gas goes through their territory. and it's, it's quite extraordinary and even make it worse. over the years,

ukraine has made great attempts to cut all social and economic ties to russia to reduce all dependence on russia mean, ever seen banning books, the stopping slides across the board and the us every turn offloads this liberating and so for russia, but this one effort by russia to reduce its reliance on energy, transferred through ukraine is deemed to be criminal. and again, consensus across the board. this makes perfect sense is, is quite extraordinary where this comes from. if, if ok, let's, let's take these, the, the nato argument, you know, needs this, this is a win for needs, the money. ok as if other countries don't want russian gas because they do so. i mean if it is so very, very important to the kremlin, why would they cut off the supply fee? their logic just fails on every single metric. go ahead. oh yes,

i agree with what glen just also because ok, let's take the figures. ukraine gets ro, ration, friendship between $2.00 and $3000000000.00 a year. sorry about the population of ukraine was near in 50000000. it was 4948. now it's less than 40, and a lot of people went to work in russia and the european union. the g and glad whole reduces the population. but still it's a big country, it's bigger than poland. if it is, of course, bigger than 100 check republic, it's a huge country. and the, and the top $3000000000.00 with a lot feed. what could feed it was used in the russian market and being a real bridge between russia and the you that could feed 40000000 people. but then you machine ukraine that installed and so violently in the 2012, sorry, 2014. they're doing everything took up any time to rush. i mean, just

a people may not do it in the west. zelinski imposed sanctions on the hermitage. museum in st. petersburg. zelinski is both sanctions on moscow state university. if you live in your grades, you can't have that with these nations. so this is the 1st argument. the 2nd argument is ecology. ok. the german green part u. s. as we learn from the national interest insists that you know the pipeline should be commissioned and they initiate the legislation to prevent this pipeline from operating. ok. the greens are so much for how are they going to warm and feed germany without fossil fuels in the next 10 years, even if the so called transition is a short as they say it really is going to be march longer. you still need to feed

and war more than 80000000 people before we finish up your plan. also, i think the, the current trends of contract infant 2024 and the agreement that the, the, the germans, numeric brushing the green knew what is, what, what rocky, what out germany say over any kind of transit relationship. russia has with ukraine. i mean, again, amazing part the americans and germans agreed that they should extend 10 years up to 2024 for agreement between russian company and ukrainian company is quite amazing. and they didn't even include russia in this conversation to come up with this deal. so we're going to break it up in the mail. they say, okay,

in the old days before breaks it because the u. k. was attached to the you, they could do it. other countries do, which is to take all their debts and dump it into this giant shadow banking system that covers the world's largest trading block. and you could kind of buy some time there because the c, b is printing and buying and monetizing debt by the trillion. so christine the garden, literally just buying trillion control of the garbage debt. but now post bracket, they don't have that way to wash the debts. into the greater you laundromat. and so that is going to the 1st time post bracket, that's going to start to cause a lot of pain. i believe it doesn't look like this is of all

what you actually do. can you to actually use the machine which is a milk with your siegel but yes, i would continue to tell you because it was in the sky, famous from a credit issued by both of us to choose the the, the, the, the welcome at the cross were all things are

considered. peter la belle, this is the home addition to remind you were discussing some real news. the, the let's change gears gentlemen here, team a. we have the 2nd high love of the 2nd high level meeting that the united states in china had. this is on the back of the disaster during acreage earlier in the year. a lot of up language went into them from both sides and fences. that was intentional, it was a max melissa, and of course they're playing to their domestic audiences. but they both came away from it. probably with very little understanding, almost certainly no agreement. but there is the recognition that we have to really start talking and start talking seriously. am i wrong? maybe this is a opening for some realism here, or is this going to just spiral?

cuz we haven't hit bottom yet, it's going to continue to spiral your thoughts. go ahead. i think there's going to continue to spiral because on the american side, we're not in the logical pregnant. we're in the laundry or ideology. i mean, from the pragmatic point of view, it makes absolutely no sense for the united states to have a quarrel with china or have a quarrel with russia. but i got logically, yes, these are authoritarian countries and by then keeps repeating every week that there is going to be a huge confrontation between democracy is and all the craig resumes, if unavoidable, you know. and if he says it's no joke. yes, it is no dual because even, you know that way just you would be the 3rd. yes. you know, the russian bolsheviks who are absolutely, i go all, he will, they believed in peaceful coexistence. the so called capitalist readings. then you,

i ga the outer deeper like georgia, united states and use a don't believe in it. you know, we have the 2nd crowd of american chinese talks. you know, that was when you're sherman dead. you just secretary of state on the american side, the chinese were put off by this because they expect that at least someone like anthony blink. and if not mr. barbie can so ok if they sound such a low level official, the chinese also represented by low level official fair found you know, the deputy foreign minister or china, the main, your foreign minister. and basically what did we hear? the chinese just said that the right to stay true store is dangerous, or if indeed dangerous because economically it's a disaster. i think everyone themselves and militarily, just because the states are trying to check chinese aggression, even south china seas and east china seas. i mean, just look at the geography,

chinese aggression, you know, the south china sea is prevented by a country what a, the, you tens of thousands of miles away from that, right? how can this be, where is the water here? glen? go to go ahead and shove it because i mean the 2 countries are at loggerheads, but i mean at least even if it is absolutely right to point out a lower level than probably it should be it wasn't appropriate. and i think that obviously the chinese that, that as a slight here, but there is a reckoning on both sides that did they, either we continue to spiral down with unintended consequences or start facing up to the fact that this is going to be a long log ahead if we want to avoid them a serious conflict including a military. com. go ahead. yeah, no, i think there's a recognition that they need diplomacy, but again, what, what's the policy achieve and how much rooms for maneuvering there? because do us has been there open that it will have the same format in purpose for

diplomacy towards china as i had with russia, which is that us will corporate all in areas where the us interest in, in all other areas will seek to confront china and that's kind of limit the scope of diplomacy and i agree to a large extent would be my i don't think ology is driving variable here. i think the u. s. it's rather, it's instrumental for him on the policy because the care of the strategies are openly based on global hit him on his much frequent black and white. so the rise of china itself becomes the problem is not merely that there are some competing interest in china itself that has to be cut down in size and sorry that was supposed to develop and grow under the wing of the united states. you know, supply every little thing good with you now is trying to taking this technological leadership, living industry and building infrastructure on the world is getting the growing footprints in global finance. and this is very problematic. as the u. s. does not recognize vehicles in a world based on global dominance. so it's the size of china. so which is the

problem in diplomacy? we're trying to map out our strategic interests. yours can be mitigated or harmonized interest or at least respect each other strategic and just try to reduce the area of rivalry. but in here they're very mush clear that the child has to be cut down and and that's why it's the call. it is often expressed in the language, ultimatums and threats which of course is very familiar to the russians. and so the corporation doesn't entail china making a lot of unilateral concessions. and again, hillary clinton famously wrote that i don't want my grandchildren to grow up in the world live by china, so it's not simply that the interests are always competing. it's the mere price of it. so i think this has made the chinese very defensive. the field they're, they're being circled much like so this could reference, i mean, the u. s. us launched economic war,

undermines economy military containment of china, which is nuclear aspect. and also one left us is only interested in human rights interference in hong kong again, young and both to better. it's not merely principled on human rights. there's also efforts to the stimulus china. so it's, it's all of this lecture. it's not simply trying to learn about china and make compromises, but rather to see it to, to undermine china. and i think in order to have proper diplomacy that can really look at strategic level, or if the united states willing to move from unit to multiple or system. if not, i think they will only spiral out of control. and diplomacy will have little meaning. ok, we get a demon, let me go to you. i mean, we can take that base value that basing as made it clear that it would be having peaceful coexistence with the united states. specifically in the west, in general,

be acceptable to them. but that's we don't see that coming out of washington. another western glenn is framed that perfectly. the mirror existence of china, the weight is day, is a threat because it is a read to hit germany and who to alleviate or address china's rise. and it had gemini, you have to have peaceful coexistence. and then i'm going to write a little bit more would be money because id always, he won't let them do it. that's the problem. you can't help people co exist and if you break it in an ideological setting name, you know, the bro, my point of view, let me just call it what the new york times rolled into 1000. well, so just 8 years ago, china is almost banging back. was to show its peaceful and good intentions to what the night state. and actually the whole editorial, i think it was written by mr. doyle was that was about how china was better than

russia. and this was before crimea. this was before, there was a new in the dramatic was new relations between the west and russia. and indeed, i mean, you know, the chinese course a peaceful rise of china. we are growing economically, but by not going to invade anyone by willing to have actually i wanted to give you mine by went to give you a bit unit that was domestic. and what did they get the richer? so, i mean, if the noted states are so concerned about all this live the bad publicity of the back yard and i just states and there was a creation around, isn't rolling in this for, i mean, the, what i do on called was the, in the bridge between huge mainland china and the west. that's how the process and they get this. you do know the chinese, the west side and the book in about ideology here,

talking about diplomacy. you know, unfortunately the night states is becoming an anti murray for the chinese also good governance is not based on democracy as it is understand in the west. it's, it's based on the principle of choosing the best. and somehow chinese kind of been able to choose some very competent leaders, otherwise china will not have become so incrementally successful. oh, cool because they're very concise with choice between hillary clinton and donald trump for the see, you know where you were. and i'm really talkers in the states, and this is one of the reasons why diplomacy come to work here. these people are more creative. i mean, you have to be stupid to come to encourage and lecture they, chinese, their on their own, the merits of american democracy. and this is exactly what the, what tony blinking gave. it's very interesting, i brought that up here because again, you know, if we look at the, the, the,

the rice of china getting into the world trade organization. and then you know, the hope that yeltsin will deliver russia to the west. i mean, all of these fantasies and dreams that you know, and it's particular, it's an american peculiarities that everybody wants to be like us and everyone wants to like us. okay. and it's all in tatters. it didn't work out the way we thought it would, which was any lucian in the 1st place. go ahead. yeah, and i think that's why they collapsed yet again at this meeting. because this recent meeting between the chinese united states, you have the same, the china and america lecturing china again. and also china outlining always complains because from the united states perspective, china not respected this unipolar world, where it's trying to remodel itself out to us. also position itself under the u. s . not challenging is leadership. and also trying to solve excepting the so called

rules based international order, in which the us mix rules for chinese to do about adult life. so it's so this created, it will explain a lot of the pioneers from the, from the us, china, china. on the other hand, it's starting to look towards us. well, in the way of a model, s d, my point out as well. it's a political system. i don't really do much at the moment, it's very much polarized they seem to be undergoing a cultural revolution. technological they're, they're, they're, they're struggling as well. they're economy is in bad shape. infrastructure is imploding, how this huge concentration of wealth, social economic fragmentation. even america, allies, really, as we discussed with nor stream is really taking the order anymore. and so that they don't see the united states united states in relative decline, which is a very conflict 3. so, so why, why should they be lectured around by the united glen people in china that remember

the great cultural revolution. and they saw how devastating it was for china and seeing traces of it emerge in the, in the, in the u. s. and the west in general, must be quite horrifying for them and everyone else, gentlemen, that's all the time we have here. i want to make my guess and slow. and here in moscow, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here are see next time. remember, the ah the know what would you do me the good

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