ah, the ah, millions of cash dropped, americans face being kicked out of their homes as congress failed to extend a covered length moratorium on evictions. the protesters curious and tightening cobra measures and mandatory health classes rally across western europe, where the number of infections is still on. the rise of europe rages against restrictions covered cases in the u. s. increased 6 fold in july, while politicians have been sending mixed messages about how to deal with the pandemic, leaving many confuse,

various political concentrations involved in it. i just what you become around it. the politics not a little. and a former british ambassador turned blogger has surrendered to police to serve a prison sentence for contempt of court. it's a case that has sent shock waves through the journalist community. because you're headlines this hour. kevin will be here in just under an hour time with another full and fresh look at your news. this is our to international. stay with us. the news. the news news. i hello, we welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle. we are witnessing,

begin in an irreversible shift in the international system is undeniable. we live in multiple the world to example. suffice. the bite administration is inability to hold the north stream too. and the recent china us meeting great power politics is back. ah, you discuss these issues and more, i'm joined by my guess and also use a professor at the university of south eastern norway as well as author of great power politics in the 4th industrial revolution. and here in moscow we cross to me 3, bob and she is a political analyst and editor it in us me internet media project or a gentleman, cross talk rules, and that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. okay, let's go to glen 1st enough, low, much has been talked about the, the north stream and the gas pipeline connecting russia to the german market. here, of course, is in the american domestic context. it's a win for,

even though they don't understand the context of the story that it was germany that actually wanted the pipeline in the 1st place. and it is a private initiative. it is not state the state. so, but you know, would be, if you look at some of the reactions in western media, this is, this is just giving the russians another chance to commit aggression. they chose weakness on the west part. i mean, there's a bunch of mental misunderstanding of this story here. and unfortunately, she's feeling the worst possible fear mongering that we've been experiencing, particularly in the last 5 years. no, i agree. i think that's a big misunderstanding around it again pertaining to russia weapon, for example, it's quite extreme again, you want to also have to keep in mind that the point that was a german initiative is they want to increase their energy security in order to in

order to make sure that their, their industries remain competitive. energy security is so much defined as reliable and cheap supply of energy. that's what the russians offer. so this was a deal between the russian and german company. and then the next generation states was the see. there is also an interesting narrative because they're not actually a part of this deal. how to enter this whole saga was by threatening or blackmail in its own hours. because while the germans wanted more energy security, they went in sanctions against their i last and attempted to punish and obstruct or ability to increase their energy security. and now this is saying that if as well, so they've been actually doing that make any real concessions. and the pipeline, i think in my on my day percent is finished. so again, it might have been very specifically, this is not some generosity in the end of their, their punishment of germany and russia. because they,

they fail to achieve their objectives. the pipeline is finished and they came to the conclusion is better to come out of this will saving some phase and allows us our relations with the germans and rushes and more so let's pretend we make a deal and that deal with between the americans and the germans also affected us listing bunch of conditions and if the germans were complied and they will stop punishing the germans. so it's not so much of the deal and blackmail it's. it's quite extraordinary about the but again, the, the feedback the really strange because i'm not sure what else they were supposed to do. those of us that know the story, draw the same conclusion, deem of the interesting thing is that the trump administration and the by the mystery, they kept invoking ukraine their new found friend here. but at the same time, the trumping ministration. and even people within the,

by the ministration or saying and better buying russian gas, you bought the american l n g. which of course begs the question, well, what about your friends? ukrainian. ok. i mean, none of this story makes any sense whatsoever. if you give it a western context, go ahead. well, unfortunately, it's not just the american side, you know, in germany, in france, in britain you have roughly the same absurd claims. you know, i'm just coaching. give is. the german newspaper. mrs. merkel has decreed ukraine. i think the just paper that everyone was political in the united states. and though this article was republished in the, in, in europe, in the u. k. for example, daily, expressly published if someone named maximilian turner call a former advisor to the british defense minas cheap. she said, he wrote in political that basically, while the united states will be having

a war with china to think about the time in the war with china, fujen could attack europe and just take your defense just because the space will be absorbed in the war with china and all of this because over the last few project last year to because it will give money to portion. so which would be able to have that. i'm vote and just watching political a us, china war would likely absorb most if not all us economic and mil. and consequently, caveat undermine it's chris ability to provide currency in europe. and because of the such, it will provide you with the march law for a peculiar to remedy your ashes, defeat at the end of the cold war in the 91. i mean, even if this is more insane than what is and the problem is that the people why such binion pay a lot, guys from the street. you know, they are form advisors to the british defense ministry. they are hi, blaze us

a few show such as far costs. you know, she, she made similar claims about ukraine being sold out to the, to the russia and just shows you how absurd the western media and the western political boss have become. the problem is the more essential people, they also have to change their opinions because there is such pressure from and say army washer. they came to that for the germans. the chance to ship from the sheed you was right. would you believe? you know? so, but until recently i started making claims that the german you will have to punish russia, give russia interprets the construction of a lot to him to i think i and green light for. busy for pressure in ukraine, so i don't know where the some show that you will stop because if you know so good,

particularly emanating from nato. i mean they interpret this as a defeat. so i mean there's this very powerful unity, unity, unity. they keep repeating over and over. i guess there really isn't. there is also, it's really kind of laugh in a facade here at the end of the day. you need reliable, cheap energy and all of their nonsense of all their, their, their propaganda war goes into kathy's. go ahead. yeah. well, the core of this propaganda though, is if they, the key argument, which everyone agrees on which is absurd to begin with, even the germans in american will agree on this, on the mental thing that they all have to preserve ukraine's rights of transit. now this is repeated over and over again. right? so that means all russian gas, the russian guess you're going right to have this transitive through its territory and collect billions of dollars every year. it's quite an absurd argument

against russia has any will. first of all, this pipeline makes perfect economic sense. the fact that they have to pay $2000000000.00 every year to the creams, means that both the german, then the russian, something again from, from, from cutting out the middle. but also it makes much more reliable. and this is why the germans initiated by the still the us pushing with arguments russia unreliable supply, which means you're cut reliance on russia. well, the russia, ukraine, that's unreliable, transit states and would like to have less reliable. it's so this, this is not. but again, this is interpretive of an energy weapon if they deny ukraine their rights of transit because they have this divine right to have russian gas goes through their territory. and it is quite extraordinary and even make it worse. over the past the years, ukraine has made great attempts to cut all social and economic ties to russia to

reduce all dependence on russia mean, ever seen banning books, the stopping slides across the board and the us every turn applause, this liberating itself, russia. but this one effort by russia to reduce its reliance on energy transfer through ukraine is deemed to be criminal. and again, consensus across the board. this makes perfect sense is, is quite extraordinary where this comes from. if ok, let's, let's take these, the, the nato argument. you know, needs this, this is a win for needs. the money. ok. as if other countries don't want russian gas because they so, i mean if it is so very, very important to the kremlin, why would they cut off the supply? see that their logic is fails on every single metric. go ahead. oh, yes, i agree with what glen just also because ok, let's take the figures. ukraine gets ration. friendship between $2.00 and

$3000000000.00 a year. sorry about the population of ukraine was near in 50000000. it was 4948. now it's less than 40 people went to work in russia and the european union. well, they're glad whole reduces the population. but still it's a big country. it's bigger than poland. it is, of course, bigger than 100 check republic. it's a huge country. and the, and the top 3000000000, those with a lot feed. what could feed it was using the russian market and being a real bridge between russia and the you that could feed 40000000 people, but then your machine ukraine, that installed and so violently in 2012, sorry, 2014, they're doing everything took up any time to rush, i mean just a people may not know it in the west. zelinski imposed sanctions on the hermitage.

museum in st. petersburg. zelinski is both sanctions on the moscow state university . you live in ukraine. you can't have all that with these nations. so this is the 1st argument, the 2nd argument is ecology. ok. the german green part u. s. as we learn from the national interest insists that you know the pipeline should be commissioned and they initiate that legislation to prevent this pipeline from operating ok. the greens are so much for the holiday goin to home and feed germany without fossil fuels in the next 10 years. even if the so called transition is as short as they say, it really is going to be march longer. you still need to feed and watch more than 18000000 people before we finish up your plan. so i think the,

the current trans contract infant 2024 and the agreement that the, the, the germans, numeric, it's a bit, brushing the green. knew it is what rocky, what out germany, they over any kind of transit relationship. russia has with ukraine. i mean, again, amazing part the americans and germans agreed that they should extend 10 years up to 2024 for agreement between russian company and ukrainian company is quite amazing. and they didn't even include russia in this conversation to come up with this deal. so like, we're going to break it up in the mail. they say the the, the the

good news. a lot of the welcome at the cross are all things are considered peter la bell. this is the home addition to remind you. we're discussing some real names. the, the let's change gears gentlemen here. we have the 2nd high love of the 2nd high level

meeting with the united states in china had. this is on the back of be disaster in anchorage earlier in the year. a lot of tough language went into it from both sides and fences. that was intentional. it was a max melissa, and of course they're playing to their domestic audiences. but they both came away from it. probably with very little understanding, almost certainly no agreement. but there is the recognition that we have to really start talking and start talking seriously. am i wrong? maybe this is a opening for some realism here, or is this going to just a spiral? can we haven't hit bottom yet? it's going to continue to spiral your thoughts go ahead, i think is going to continue to spiral because on the american side, we're not in the logical pregnant. we're in the laundry or ideology. i mean, from the big major point of view, it makes absolutely no sense for the united states to have

a quarrel with china or to have a quarrel with russia. but i guess what you call it. yes, these are authoritarian countries and by then keeps repeating every week that there is going to be a huge confrontation between democracy is and all the craig resumes, if unavoidable, you know. and if you says it's no dog, yes, it is no go because even, you know that way, just you will be the 3rd. yes. you know, the russian bolsheviks who are absolutely, i go get you will. they believed in peaceful coexistence, where the, the sole goal, capitalist readings, then you, i, ga, the ultra liberal, i, georgia, united states. and they don't believe in it. you know, we have the 2nd crowd over american chinese talks. you know, that was when sharon, deputy secretary of state on the american side the chinese were put off by this because they expect that at least someone like anthony blamed if not mr. barbie, i'm so ok if they sound such a low level official,

the chinese also represented by law level official found you know, the deputy foreign minister or china, the main, your foreign minister. and basically what did we hear? the chinese just said that the state should stop is dangerous if it didn't dangerous because it can only, it's a disaster. i think everyone themselves and militarily, just because they're not the states are trying to check chinese aggression in south china seas and east china seas. i mean, just look at the geography. chinese aggression in the south during the sea is prevented by country. what gave you tens of thousands of miles away from that, right? how can this be? where is the want to hear glen go to go ahead and jump in because, i mean the 2 countries are at loggerheads, but i mean at least even in india is absolutely right to point out

a lower level than probably should be if it wasn't appropriate. and i think that obviously the chinese that, that as a slight here, but there is a reckoning on both sides that did they, either we continue the spiral down with unintended consequences or start facing up to the fact that this is going to be a long slog ahead if we want to avoid them a serious conflict including a military. com, go ahead. yeah, no, i think there's a recognition that they need diplomacy, but again, what was the policy achieve and how much rooms for maneuver is there? because do us, has been there open that it will have the same formats, in purpose for diplomacy towards the china with russia, which is of us will operate only in areas where the us interest in all other areas will seek to confront china. and that's kind of limits the, the scope of diplomacy and i agree to a large extent would be my, i don't think ology is the driving variable here. i think the u. s. it's rather

it's instrumental for him on the policy because the care, the strategies are openly based on global him on his much everything black and white. so the rice of china itself becomes the problem. it's not merely that there are some competing interest in china itself that has to be cut down in size and sorry that was supposed to develop and grow under the wing of united states to supply every little thing. good thing now is trying to taking this technological leadership, living industry and building infrastructure on the world is getting the growing footprints in global finance. and this is very problematic as the u. s. does not recognize eagles in a world based on global dominance. so it's the size of china, so which is the problem because usually in diplomacy, you tried to map out our strategic interests was yours. can we mitigate or harmonize interest or at least respect the strategic interest and try to reduce the area of rivalry in here. they're very mush clear that the child has to be cut down and, and that's why it's there. it's often expressed in the language,

ultimatums and threats, which of course, is very familiar to the russians. and so the corporation doesn't entail china making a lot of unilateral concessions. and again, hillary clinton famously wrote that, i don't want my grandchildren to grow up in the world lead by china. so it's not simply that the r, as in interest are always competing. it's the mere price of it. so i think maybe the chinese very defensive, the field. there's that they're being circled much like the rational. so that's good reasons. i mean, the u. s. s. launched economic war to undermine me. military containment of china, which is military aspect. and also, unless you think you're only interested in human rights interference in hong kong, young and both, which is not barely principled on human rights. there's also efforts to the stimulus, china, so it see all of this lecture. it's not simply trying to learn about china and

make compromises, but rather to see it to, to undermine china. and i think in order to have proper diplomacy that back and really look at a strategic level. if the united states rulings move from unit to multiple or system, if not, i think they will only spiral out of control and diplomacy will have little meaning . okay, we get a demon, let me go to you. i mean, we can take it, leave that base value, then basing it made it clear that it would be a having peaceful coexistence with the united states. specifically in the west, in general, be acceptable to them. but that's, we don't see that coming out of washington. another western glenn is framed that perfectly the mere existence of china. the wait is day of breath because it is a read to hit germany and who to alleviate or

address chinese rise and gemini, you have to have peaceful coexistence. and then i'm going to buy a little bit more with the money because i'm always, he won't let them do it. that's the problem. you can't help people co exist. if you break it in an ideological setting. you know, the bro, my point of view. ready let me just call what the new york times rolled into 1000. well, so just 8 years ago, china is almost banging back, was to show its peaceful al good intentions to what's safe. and actually the whole editorial, i think it was written by mr. was that was about how china was better than russia, and this was before crimea. this was before there was new in the domestic was new relations between the west and russia. and indeed, i mean, you know, the chinese course a peaceful rise of china. we are growing economically, but we're not going to invade anyone by willing to have actually by willing to give

you money by went to give you a unit that was the message from china. and what did they get to return? so, i mean, if the not states are so concerned about all this live the bad ablation to the bad b r i just based on there was a creation around, isn't rolling in this. i mean, the whole idea of on call was be in the range between huge mainland china and the west. that's how this process and then getting this, you do not the chinese, the west side. and the book about ideology here, talking about diplomacy. you know, unfortunately the states is becoming an anti murray for the chinese also good governance is not based on democracy as it is understand in the west it's, it's based on the principle of choosing the best. and somehow chinese credit been able to choose some very competent leaders,

otherwise china will not have become so comically successful. oh, cool because of the medical side with choice between hillary clinton and donald trump for the seat. you know, when you, when the end i'm really talking in the states and this is one of the reasons why diplomacy come to work. yes. these people are more creative. i mean, you have to be stupid to come to encourage and literature. they chinese, their, on their, on the merits of american democracy. and this is exactly what the, what tony blink, indeed, it's very interesting. i'm glad the mom brought that up here because again, you know, if we look at the, the, the, the rice of china get getting into the world trade organization. and then you know, the hope that yeltsin would deliver russia to the west. i mean, all of these fantasies and dreams that you know, and it's particular, it's an american peculiarities that everybody wants to be like us and everyone

wants to like us. okay. and it's all encounters, it didn't work out the way we thought it would, which was any lucian in the 1st place. go ahead. yeah. and i think the other kind of hits, that's why they collapsed yet again at this meeting. because this recent meeting between the chinese and united states, you have the same, the china and america lecturing china again. and also china outlining always complains because from the united states perspective, china not respected this unipolar world, where it's trying to remodel itself out to us. also position itself under the u. s . not challenging is leadership. and also trying to solve excepting the so called rules based international order, in which the us makes rules for chinese to do. but it does so it's, so this created, it will explain a lot of the empire from, from the us, china, china, on the other hand, it's starting to look towards us. well, in the way of a model s d, my point out as well. it's

a political system can't really do much at the moment. it's very much polarized they seem to be undergoing a cultural revolution. technological they're, they're, they're struggling as well. they're kind of me, it's in bad shape, infrastructures and folding. you have this huge concentration of, well, social, economic presentation. you know, even america allies, really, as we discussed with nor stream is aren't really taking their orders anymore. and so that they don't see the united states united states in relative decline, which is a reasonable accomplish terese. so, so why, why should they be lectured around by the united people in china that remember the great cultural revolution and they saw how devastating it was for china and seeing traces of it emerge in the, in the, in the u. s. and the west in general, must be quite horrifying for them and everyone else, gentlemen, that's all the time we have here. i want to make my guess and, and here in moscow, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here. are see you next time. remember,

the ah, when i was the wrong when i was just don't the room. yes to fill out the scene because of the attitude, an engagement equal betrayal. when so many find themselves will depart, we choose to look for common ground in the job doesn't look like this was off the

bus when you told me that actually use them shape, which is a big milk with your budget that i would continue to tell you because if i didn't get famous from a credit issued by both of us, choose the

know what we would use and i knew him by the end of my truck. and while we're on by now, i should know, i should know moment a been asian leo, call me on the search bar deals on my us like the ones that are more mobile but for have an initiation. and before we get off the solar is in the news, give me a shout in one hour my.