[000:00:00;00] the news i'm action or can't see, and you're watching a special episode of going on the ground, looking at imperialism, had gemini in the history buried by the victor. exactly 232 years since the creation of the united states department of war has today, the u. s. u k. and israel ratchet up tensions with iran will get to the seventy's, also, exactly 31 years in for 1st american soldiers arrived in saudi arabia as part of persian gulf war, one and 57 years since the passing of the gulf of tonkin resolution, which escalated doomed washington mass killing pro vietnam to allow in cambodia. the real history of these events is often missing from textbooks and history

classes in nato nations. a new volume by retired us army officer major danny session attempts to remedy all that by telling a true history of the united states. he joins me now from lawrence in kansas. danny, welcome to going under ground before we get to this monumental history of the united states. i mean, it's up there with the how it is in arguably and how you manage to teach this to us army soldiers at west point, which will get hundreds. mazing, the whole idea of it, you will take, obviously, on us troops fleeing in the dead of night from afghanistan. will you fought for the us army? well, i think it's, it's a tragedy for the young people, but it's been an ongoing tragedy in general that there's been 40 years of war. i think the american troops leaving the dead of night is a fitting way for the imperial us sort of forces to go this war. it's been over for 10 years or longer when you know, when i fought there in 201112 i was the height of the u. s. troop presence and we

barely controlled anything but the ground we stood on. i'm for the withdrawal. i don't think that america can meaningfully influence the outcomes in afghan us than and the whole thing is a tragedy. but more so for the people who are gonna stand, i support the withdrawal. but we're, we're going out with our tail between our legs, which is surprising to people who weren't paying attention. i think so, the fact that the united states really has really is not achieved anything in afghanistan. and things are worse essentially than, than we founded or, or then we found that in february 2002 in combat operations were declared over. yeah, i mean, in this country, thousands of british troops wounded hundreds of thousands of afghans. obviously the army doesn't count. the us over u. k. hope he doesn't get african civilians. i mean use the word imperial. there. people are going to wonder when you fall in iraq, afghanistan, lots of this book. you taught to people who fight for the united states and you use

the word imperial. that is not the rhetoric we hear from the hillary clinton's of this world. and the liberal interventionists at all. it's trying to actually net countries govern themselves is the whole idea, right? i mean, the polite liberals and the polite imperialist, as i call them, or the white intervention is they. they always come up with rhetoric to justify these interventions. but 11 looks at the practical end of it and for better or worse my life, really, my adult life was spent at the practical point, the end of the sphere. it looked a lot like invasion, occupation, and sort of, you know, a brand of imperialism. no one likes the word empire in the united states. in fact, we're really proud. we just celebrated the fact, you know, were we were ostensibly founded in opposition to the greatest empire in the world. down with king george, we don't like empire,

but one of the things are in the book and one of the things that i felt experientially that i had seen with my own eyes was that the united states was ever always and continues to be an empire. just maybe not of the maritime late 1900 century european sort. but there's been all kinds of empires in history. and currently we're an empire of bases and economics and expeditionary interventions. and any mythology needs a, a found a founding myth origin miss. you go through a couple of them. just tell me about why, why we don't hear about jamestown. it's a peculiar thing. origin miss you would think would start at the beginning. the 1st permanent, you know, british settlement is jamestown. 16 o 7, but that's not what we really celebrate in the united states. that's not our origin . the origin meant this thanksgiving. it's pilgrims,

it's buckles on black. has. it's this notion that the united states was founded as a haven for, you know, religious, you know, right? you know, the right of practice, religion. that's interesting that we choose that. of course, it's a myth. massachusetts was actually a very sort of fundamentalist religious state. i mean, it was, there was really very little difference between the government and the church. you wouldn't want to live among these people, frankly. i mean, there, they bear a lot in resemblance to, you know, life in pure it in boston in life and re odd weren't completely different, right. we just don't like to think of it that way. but i think the reason we don't talk about jamestown is there's a few. well, 1st of all, that's where the slaves come. just the few years after the british colonies get there, but also the motives, it's really hard to like justify those motors if you're even remotely honest about

it, which is that a bunch of the grass did to many, she didn't bring any farmers in bringing to people who do actual work a form, a corporate venture, right? like venture capitalism. go to virginia, looking for gold and resources and northwest passage maybe. and so kind of like, you know, challenge the spanish and they make terrible decisions and they, you know, set up a settlement in a malarial swamp and almost all of them die. and one guy eats his wife the 1st winter because they're starving. and the whole thing is a mass and it's sort of a capitalist enterprise and extract extract $31.00. and so i don't think that that co years with our origin. ready met, but in many ways it sets the stage for what is the common american history, maybe more so than boston and from the rock and all that. and you see parallels between i to say, ash and this puritan, true origin. well, they use a lot of the same language. i mean,

in the scale of killing someone say isn't the same, but what is it not? i mean we're talking about folks who in the mystic massacre, you know, surround a wooden village in, in what's now connecticut. right? where julia roberts movie took place, right? mystic pizza, and you know they burn alive day and that and shoot taking no quarter women, children, old people, most of the warriors i've kind of gotten away. this is just one incident and the language that they use, i mean ronald reagan and every politician sets, right. whether it's hillary glenn or, or brock obama. they love this city on a hill speech. it's lashawn winthrop, right us, you know, on the boat off shore. he says, we shall be as a city upon a hill. well, no one ever mentions what he says after that in the speech. he basically says that we're a new israel and that with the strength, i'm paraphrasing with the strength of god behind us. we should be able to smote 10 of our enemies for each man. this is

a subtler colonial enterprise to not necessarily civilize the heathen, but probably to exterminate and the language of creat they wanted to create a christian power fate. in a new land, i mean this is, this is not very different language. i mean, if i'm being purposely provocative and there are differences. but i think if we don't look at the parallels, we're not looking at ourselves. and if we don't look at ourselves, we're never really going to be able to make the progress to this, you know, you know, aspirational republic of ours. no one in the us had such a great time finding. what would become al guy the would you had in and now so nice to the taliban. i don't know. but when you are saying this at west point, to military recruits and office of material, what do they face even show what expressions do they show when you talk like that to them? well, it depended on the students. i would say that overall, with probably some prize folders to know how many people so many my students were or to, you know, this, this actual history. i mean,

it's factual. it was making anything up. but, you know, obviously anyone puts a slant on, it has a certain kind of analysis they're coming from. mine was definitely on the radical and, but i wasn't the only instructor, they're the only officer they're teaching that way. my boss was the students were a little more mental than you to with and you might think one of the reasons is because i was just out of afghanistan. and most of my fellow officers teaching there were just out of iraq or afghanistan and usually multiple tours. they look up to you, there's a certain rank structure. so even if you're making them uncomfortable, they're a little less likely to challenge. the 2nd one is if you teach well and you and you sort of demonstrate that you care for the students, they may start to listen after a while. in the beginning of the semester, there was a lot of confusion. and throughout the semester, this is very demonstrative of the demographics of america, regional. it's a huge country. it's really many countries in many ways, like 7 nations, according to one but culturally but the, the southern class that gets from the deep south,

especially they could have through taxes and the cadets from mountain west were much more skeptical of this narrative. and it gave a little more push back, especially on certain lessons the alamo, the civil war, the vietnam war. these were the touchstones that they pushed back most thought, which i think is kind of illustrative of what still resonates with americans. yeah, and i should just say before anyone thinks his job, usa mashing british history and the history i was taught about britain degree, all countries have to create a kind of mythology. you mentioned vietnam in the book. you claim that nixon use the initial circumstances that exacerbated attention in vietnam to be elected. oh, absolutely. you know, nixon does a few things to get elected. first of all, he plays on the culture wars. he sort of place to this, what he calls the silent majority, the white backlash against the civil rights movement,

the white working class backlash against what was perceived as like a privileged college kid, anti war movement. even though that's a bit of a mythology too. and also, you know, he literally sense kissinger, right? one of the great villains of american history that, you know, hillary clinton looks up to right is fascinating. more, a stronger forest johnson over here we'll talk as well. of course, or my race, the mental kissinger, the murderer punches thousands. but you know, kissinger is sent to spike. the peace talks basically that, you know, johnson's kind of working on and that are ongoing because he tells them essentially, you know, tell the south vietnamese leadership. don't make a deal, don't agree, anything because a tougher president is coming in and you'll get a better deal. what i mean, that's true and, and a lot of ways, i mean, this guy isn't even president yet. and look, this is, this was business as usual. i mean, it was an indicator of what was to come for next and obviously with this expansion

of corrupt, federal and executive power. but absolutely, does that mean the vietnam war were still fighting the vietnam war and american politics today? largely? ok. i mean, obviously some people they make some progressive on time elements of welfare to a fantasy. yes. i mean, who is this vocal minority in d. c. a policy makers. that if you advance the years after $911.00 made policies that we now see the results of in, in libya and in syria canister on in iraq. you know, i think it's, there's 2 strands stewart to bipartisan strands. there's the, like the neo imperial neoconservatives, who believed that the is for the executive branch, usually rumsfeld's the cheney, the wolf who answers these are idealogues more so than bush himself, who believe that the executive branch should be able to basically wage war and

a certain american hedge are many unilateral, and that after vietnam, congress got too powerful. the american people got too hesitant about using force. this is a whole vietnam syndrome. and that's the problem, if you unshackled the presidency and do what needs to be done, the re, our policy crowd, then you know, then will, when course they were wrong. but then there's also a little rule interventionist, which is always been a stronger strand of american sort of imperialism. this is the wilsonian, this is the sort of civilized the world spread democracy and the free market along the way, of course. and that's like the samantha powers and the hillary clinton's into large extent, joe biden, although he's been better on i've got a stand throughout his career. but backing all of this is a professional glass of the tanker analysts policy makers awaiting the wings and advise professionally the dc policymakers. and of course that's all funded along. ready with the politicians,

by what eisenhower warned about in his farewell address, which is the war industry, a sprawling military industrial complex that profits from war that profits no one else. not the american soldiers under my commander, died for $30000.00 a year. and not the people living on $2.00 a day we, you know, drop our bombs upon. so i think that's really the cruel nexus that has proven a formula for forever war major danny session or something more of the true history, the united states. after this break, the welcome back. still here with retired us army officer major dining session was the true history of the united states. i mean, some said that in the a bit your ease of donald rumsfeld, they were far too kind to him. i mean,

what did you make of the of him? millions, tens of millions were killed, wound displaced in that these was, oh, it was obscene. i mean the missionaries were largely obscene. it's one thing to dance on somebody's grade. but when that person created countless graves masquerades, i think we need tell the truth about it. and the truth is, dollars, shelves, role in american politics is highly nefarious. that was long term, meaning like the youngest, then oldest secretary defense. i believe the secretary place is the chief of stafford gerald ford. he's been fighting to unshackled the presidency as i was mentioning earlier throughout a whole career. i mean, dick cheney as his protege, not the other way around. people forget that. he represents a strand of american conservatism that when hyper imperialist in the most old school sat and was sort of on a pallet jack about it. and he was a disaster for us politics for the pentagon and for the world.

and his ill should be rejected, horribly and emphatically. but instead in the polite circles where they go to the same schools and cocktail party, country clubs and their go to after school programs together at the club, you see as a club, northern virginia is a club. and i think that drives some of the polite, you know, media memorization. the, i think the class war dimension comes through in, in your history very, very powerfully. but if anyone thinks is all about foreign policy, you say in the book, american imperialism comes home, often, poisoning any hope for meaningful democracy. what do you mean by that? well, james madison had said that prolonged war is the greatest enemy to a republic or of democracy. george marshal the 5 star general, who really was the architect of victory in world war 2. and then later became secretary of state. he said democracy can not fight a 7 years war. i chuckle,

want to hear that now. i wonder what he would think if we added 13 to that and going the argument is essentially that look, war poisons, things, things are lost, civil liberties are inevitably lost privacy, the surveillance state, the police get militarized when the veteran pipeline comes in. and you know, there are disproportionately represented and baltimore is treated like baghdad in kansas city is treated like kandahar occupied territory by police one who know counterinsurgency and only counterinsurgency. we've seen this in the master balance of americans. the entrapment scandals. everyone says the great thing about war, brown history, there's people like theater, roosevelt, and we need a good war. need a good water, revitalize our masculinity. and to bring us together, i mean, because we heard that about world war 2, the greatest generation, even in britain, i imagine is placement installed for that time. but the reality is in actually that's true sometimes. but the dark side of it is and the stronger side is that

things are laws that it justifies the government, grabbing more power that it never gives back. and it gives an excuse to sort of pull away the rights, the liberties that any democracy is built on. and i think that's the blow back of war. and it's multifaceted, and that's why i say, you know, empires and decline behave badly. and empires always come home. this is a historically and philosophically just factual. again, the idea that you are teaching recruits at west point is quite amazing. i mean, the wiki leagues uncovered so many cables that arguably support faces in the later part of this book. because obviously wiki likes goes back a number of years decades. and julian hassan just being tortured here in london, according to the united stations. you're safely walking around the streets of the united states. yeah, well i mean, what do you say about what west point and teaching it there,

i think is important. i mean, i say in the prologue, to this book, i was on paper highly regard officer, right? fairly high regarded i had good scores, i had done well, the west point out a good combat record. so i was a prime candidate to go back and teach, which is pretty selective thing. but what they can't measure is that i just come out of tours. i no longer believe that i spent all my time in those wars and after ending grad school studying the back story to this. and at the point when i got to west point to teach, i felt it would be literally obscene, grotesque not to tell the truth, not to bash america, i tell a lot of great stories about a lot of great americans write about the spirit and the potential of this country, however, if i'm not telling the gods on is true wards and all to the people who are signed up at 18 years old to fight and die for said country which is all based on back

story and legacy drive is where we're at that would be literally, i thought of, see, not everyone on the faculty agreed, but a surprising number did it was not just you believe the wars are point lower than effective. it was to recent president joe biden, obviously pulling the troops out, believes it a bomb up. maybe he did believe because he expanded the number of boys. but donald trump, who you do say without a step with, with the historical background here. although then failed to follow the roof you know, from has been of was fascinating sort of, you know, element in american politics. but even also in my own sort of dissenting background . i started writing articles and my 1st book while i was on active duty, i was even under investigation. it was, it was, it was a little bit of drama. but before trump selection, all of my, you know, hate mail and trolling was from the right. and it was the stuff you to expect,

right? you hate america, you're not sure, your trader all of this, right. but after trump selection, if i said even this and i attack the guy all the time, are criticizing possibly. but if i said anything to say, you know, hey, look, but this rhetoric is, makes sense or this decision on somalia makes sense all almost overnight. my sort of, you know, detractors shifted to the establishment left, right, the mainstream democrat. and i think that that is somewhat instructed to trump for his litany of flaws. was a bit different on foreign policy. and then occasionally whether you followed through or not would say someone comfortable truth that the polite liberals and the polite lincoln project. conservatives wouldn't say. and that really upset the establishment, which is why they're more angry with him than george w bush was millions of bodies on his hands. i mean only heroes you speak of. i don't know what the, what a joke about eugene debs. why. why has there been no socialist press joy,

although i should say, but any sign is obviously wicky leaks revealed how the d n c tried to destroy his candidacy is a socialist and nearly became president. so, you know, eugene debs is one of the dissenting heroes that i try to highlight throughout the book. some of them people have heard of like, you know, john quincy adams and abraham lincoln who were anti mexican american war. but eugene deb stands out because he was for time candidate for president under the socialist party, gets about a 1000000 votes in 1912 and almost the same in 1920. he runs from federal prison in 1920 and his campaign button. se for president convict, you know, 9372 or whatever. i mean, it was kind of incredible. why though, is that the socialist moment until bernie sanders obviously because bernie sanders, one of his early projects, was a documentary about eugene debs. which i think is instructed, but why? well, the united states has this hearty frontier culture. this idea,

you can always flee west and remake yourself even though that's a bootstrap apology. we have the ethnic and racial divides. the hyper capitalist class was always able to divide the working class against itself, either racially or ethnically or regionally. and then there was a sustained effort by the government to suppress socialism here. so i think there's a lot of reasons why we didn't develop a sort of left wing like europe. it. eugene debs though, is one of those important forgotten figures because he ease fights class warfare. but he does on a democratic ways of democratic socialists. he speaks a lot like a christian actually, even though he's not one, he respects religion and you know, when he's sentenced to the federal prison for opposing the draft and giving a speech on this edition act during world war one. i have fooled more than one person who is a self proclaimed conservative person by quoting what he said to the judge to them

and asking who said it. and many times i've been told that sounds like jesus and what he said is your honor. while there is an underclass, i'm in it while there is a criminal element. i am of it. while there is a soul in prison, i am not free. i mean, that's on my wall. that sounds like the sermon on the mount, and i think it's a part of american history, we should remember, but has largely been suppressed. what about the inevitable? is he miss that you talk of in the book? things are just inevitable. washington has a problem with moscow. it's going to happen as you say, in the book. it's an ally of moscow at the end of the world war 2. why and britain follows whatever the united states does that i'm sure you know how can that miss ineligibility? right? now, washington has to fight with waging, how can you break that cycle? well, i mean, one of the ways to do it is to treat history with a degree of strangeness. i mean, that's what i used to tell my students. i mean, one of the things about american history is americans assume they know it, even though they don't know it. right. we're criminally bad at knowing our own

history. but there's an assumption that we get it. and there's an assumption that there is this determinism in american history. things happen, so they had to have happened. but the reality is that there is the agency of millions of people that determines what happens. and then there's an inherent contingency to history. and i think one of the things the policymakers need to do is not only know their past and like the flaws of it and the midst of it. but also recognize that there are a number of possibilities and options out there that never really get looked at. policymakers put themselves in a certain box before they even start deciding. and they only look at a few options. i mean, co existence and cooperation with china is not on the agenda, not even considered in any real sense on the agenda of either of the 2 major only political parties, united states that drives the degree of determinism. that then makes historians

assume things were inevitable. but they are not. and course, since the only 2 truly existential threat to humanity and the united states are nuclear catastrophe, and climate catastrophe. well, both of those require piece, although those require international cooperation and co existence. so actually peace is less naive and more rational than the, you know, the full to tell us that war is inevitable and a part of life. and we have to be realists and just find me and briefing. there's enough conspiracy about corona virus going around the world. the woman why you say is there is obsession with conspiracy in the u. s. history going from the beginning? well, i think that part of the reason that conspiracies are so popular is that we like unique, centralized explanations to complex problems. so when something awful happens, when one of these blacks one events happens when, when something no one was expecting,

even though they should have been like 911 or the prone of virus or the spanish flu or you name it right. there is a sense that there must be a grand conspiracy. it's actually comforting to people to believe that there are power brokers pulling all of the strengths. a serious read of history though, and of policy today, tells us that aka was razor is usually the way to go. the simplest explanation is usually the right one. and since we're dealing with human beings and all of their inherent fallibility, i found that incompetence and misunderstanding explains most disasters rather than grand conspiracy. this is not to say there haven't been conspiracies that have proven to be not so conspiratorial but real. but for the most part, i think people want to order. ready the world, and they actually sort of prefer the, you know, centralize evil, right? the person pulling the strings over the chaos and anarchy of contingency. but

that's the world we live in. and it's an inherently grey one. and i thought that people should read about that world major danny session. thank you. and his book, a true history, the united states is out of the show will be back on monday. 47 years to the day the richard nixon begin. the 1st president of the united states to resign from office is by not being the 1st or love to break international law until then keep in touch with us through all our social media channels and get in touch to let us know what part of american history you think was deserve to be put under the spotlight. the didn't join me every thursday on the alex simon show. and i'll be speaking to guess in the world,

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