how did it that were more involved in afghanistan? you were embedded in soldiers in helmand, after serving the british army and you get slow via what, what do you make of events now and tv screens? yes, i did. i did trim, but actually i was embedded with my own regiment. i'd been a soldier myself in the olden days. and yes, you right. that's been so much news and discussion of this. this was, that is a factor to go on. on the 20 year we've been in a kind of 20 years very long time. and so i think today people are slightly dumbfounded and, and don't quite see what it was. it was all for. i don't think it makes sense to people. i think the reporting was been quite poor and i think people's understanding of what happens that doesn't make sense. i think people are very confused about what's happening now. i mean, the thing that i take about it is, is something that a friend of mine said who lost a chasm, actually it was

a complement and how it, what people were saying that and they, they were kind of stalling and making the sacrifice. but they see that was to protect us and to protect person from from terrorism. and so i think people are quite concerned as to where does that stand now? i mean, are we protected them? that doesn't seem much to take home, doesn't seem much that we've got half of 20 years of war. and what is going to be a good soldiers? did they know that britain had previously supported the merger dean that became the talent, the this term taliban. that is used all i didn't, i didn't find a huge amount of understanding of afghanistan within the british army. i felt that people did genuine to be the soldiers, generally believe they were doing good. they believe that they were asked to try to help people. that's what soldiers would say, and i think there was a sudden i even see, i didn't think we understood our history. i mean,

we lost the whole army there in 181842. and we just lost 456 soldiers over 20 years. that is the chief, nothing is what i find quite interesting about in terms of soldiers is soldiers. very proud of being in the british army. the british army hasn't actually lost very many wars in its entire history. in fact, one of the ones we lost was the one we mentioned 1942 and i got mixed on. but we just lost 2 walks kinda found in iraq over the last 20 years, which hadn't been sol reputation. but that doesn't seem to be a recognition of that because we just play in the americans. so i think there's a lot of confusion about what's happening that's going to take a long time to digest. i'm sure the british army last in many more places than that . i'm thinking this is a propaganda in the british army. clearly they, they want to tell where they were told that the graveyard. i mean,

they were actually serious allegations of british soldiers torturing and killing children. and as you know, but i mean, i think we get back to this idea of what ger let alone commanding offices, although often during. but that may help me any excuse. you know, you know the journal, you had afghan officials in the front club. i seem to remember and they would talk about post conflict development and all sorts of things. but it was all rubbish. no, i think i don't think it was rubbish. i think they were the intentions, but that was a fundamental mistake. clearly i think who all the soldiers i speak to. i don't think that many of i speak to would consider the hope being a waste of time. i haven't quite caught that fall. yes. but they do feel that they made a terrible mistake by staying in after the initial invasion of outcomes when they kicked out the, how the bomb and, and the featured them effectively. and then stayed on for what purpose, because they weren't rebuilding, if you compare what the russians did and kind of what the americans and brits have

just done. it's very interesting. in 1979. the russians are not going to solve for 10 years. and then then with the features and left, but they had intended to stay. and so the investor, the loss in the country, they invested into an infrastructure that, you know, a lot of doctors or civil servants who need not kinda sounds. they were trained by the russians all that time ago, and there is the section that we in 20 years. and i think it's quite important to take my to 79, afghanistan. it's fat that has been complex, i ever since 970 not. and i think shocking is that we've been 20 years of that we've, we've contributed to that, of course, of the big cold war thing when we were supporting the budgeting against the russians. doing 7989. but essentially when they look at the russians, at least they say that a lot of dead tanks, we can mess a little bit more and we didn't the part so much scrap metal. but you see that the africans had to say about the enemies, but the enemies have the guns,

but the africans have the time and they proven they've been proven right. we, you know, 20 years where out they want. i mean, it's almost hard to remember the breathless reports by bbc and other reports in 2122 and talking about victory. i mean, was the media controlled. i mean, who smuggled yourself in the persian gulf war one to become one of the only uncontrolled journalists and covering that war? i know you are embedded and have cancer, but with a journalist controlled is that why people in britain in the united states clearly did not get an accurate picture of the impact of native nation troops? enough cameras. yes, i think there's a lot to be said for that, but your opinion on what you've just said because effectively in the scuffle way. yes, i did the disguise myself, the soldier having left 5 years and was a john on controls. the attempt to control janice in the 1st gulf war was very

intense in the 2nd go. what the, the army had done is they, they develop something called embedding. where what they would do is they would control jonas by exchanging access for independence. so if you became an embedded journalists not done for them, i know you said they didn't get access to both sides of the conflict. you got very controlled access. you have no logistical independence. but just because it's very controlled access. and if they didn't like what you're reporting, you were not invited to do so again. so there's no question about it by doing so you exchange your independence for and for access, but i'm afraid it was very effective because it was run by an outfit called media operations. and you know, it's all in the name. i mean, you know, journalists were the subjects of an operation by the british on. i'm to effectively control output. now, in a sense, you might reasonably say, look, mom was,

is about, you know, information war and the digital age become more important to armies. and i think that's point, but who should not, information will be directed again? should it be directed against the enemy welled opinion? should it be defensive or offensive, where i have issue and where i was rather disappointed was a very great deal of the efforts by the media operations was directed at keeping public support for the war getting rather than informing the public actually about what's going on. i think journalists, because the pictures you've got on them, that was so amazing. i mean you get awards for this amazing stop the access to frontline reporting with extraordinary through, through this embedding. but ultimately, i think it, it, we, we failed the public because we didn't inform them about what happens. and i think that, you know, still today, you know, the arguments delivered by the army. we should still be there. i'm sort of miss the points. i think we haven't really nailed the question of whether, you know,

whether the was we have a delivered in iraq and afghanistan. have they made? oh or they made us less think it seems to me suddenly the laugh. and obviously tens of millions killed wounded or displaced. americans will recognize what you say about embedding from, from vietnam. but while you are saying, look, i was embedded on and i recognize the constraints, some journalists, they came back detesting those that weren't embedded. did you, what did you think of the recriminations against robert fisk of the late robert fisk, one of the greatest journalists, arguably of trying to get a century? maybe it seemed a lot of reporters with n g and his body wasn't cold and they were saying, yeah, he wasn't a real journalist the way the was, you know, as if, because he wasn't embedded. he wasn't a journalist. well, i don't wanna get into the business of defending individuals. i'm actually more interested. i'm not even that one seems to criticize individual organizations. i

think collectively journalistically, we have failed to inform the public. i agree. you mentioned robert faced and he was certainly a voice who told people things i didn't want, you know, always want to hear their voice is like that we will base no. but i feel that there has been a tendency for journalism to slightly close office, almost like an acceptable window of reporting. i'm not saying it doesn't, doesn't contribute to a public service. it does even if it's in its current form, i believe it fails massively in, in terms of failing to, to properly explain what not in, not accept the window. and i feel that, you know, voice is on the outside. we don't care or listen to it. peril, and i think, you know, both the african and iraq was which we lost when you know what x position it was a choice. it's quite tenuous, but link as to how they were put. we are protecting our populations. were soldiers

protecting, also told how is that really happening? i didn't think that was necessarily proven or explain. and as i said earlier, certainly the situation is being made worse by, by, you know, by failing to actually support and when an achieve any objectives. fundament for the afghans knew when they thought also does that one that we were going to go one day and 2 that we weren't really that to help them because we were carrying gums. and so, you know, young african looks at that and see the foreigners, that country, you know, i can't get on what you're going to do. you're going to fight. but i mean, and in a sense, we misunderstood the fact that we do that thinking with doing good because we persuade ourselves. and a lot of that news management, when actually you really have to question what we're doing. and islam is terrorism over the oversee increase. i know you're involved with this big translator story, rather than ordinary afghans. run the agenda on the ground that people have written that will give us these translated. i mean, it's difficult to ask you,

given you are obviously helping, helping them and, and feel compassion for them. can you understand that the global to consider them traitors if not even, obviously the taliban do, because they worked with nato nation troops and have done and therefore these translators of justifiably enemy competence? no, i mean i have that view. i'm don't necessarily subscribe. really. i do, i've been, i'm very much aware of it. i, i feel i feel compassionate. anybody at risk? i think these people have been pushing risk and i think we should be saving everybody if we possibly can. i do. i do come in the media if i'm getting together . it was quite extraordinary. i mean, it was led by about by 2 genesis sunday times in a time to us and god, and just an unnamed lawyer who, who put this together. i commend the press of doing that. i think the media needs to the costs of the people it works with. but i likewise the army saving it's translation,

which is much more what you're talking about. i. the journalist would like to believe that we can report and have no him and it's always disappointing for us. i think a good journalist. they feel that you are actually impacting and thing we do want to try and do some good. we want to leave the wealth of other place. i think that's an idealism in journalism that fundamentally, if you can give the public accurate information that they can make better decisions and that, that's a whole some thing. but it's clearly failing in the digital. ready world, i'm in information where you become a tool of one side or both sides or all sides. and these things get incredibly complicated. vonner, stop you there more from the founder of the front line club on the prosecution of wiki links published julia sons. after this break plus anti colonial sculpture comes to the heart of imperialism. ah, well,

the panoramic note certainly no borders and the number t's as emerge. we don't, we don't, the whole world needs to take action and be ready. people are judge governors crisis. we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenges for the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we need together in the welcome back. i'm still here with the founder of london's from 9 club born

smith. you're speaking to me from the house, and you gave asylum to before president career of ecuador, to julie and sons. i mean, what do you make of jo biden's justice department claiming that they have a justified appeal against the british court saying that he'll be protected in custody in the united states? i'm. i'm incredibly disappointed. i'm slightly hot broken about it. i mean, i know julian personally and he's not the person. his character is not as described by, you know, people who denigrate and julian has got off everyday, everyday feeling. but he's, he's serving the public. i'm troubled by the way that we can gang off against somebody who's got something to say, but might not quite fit into what lots of people want to have. that actually we benefit by hiring, hiring people and, and boys like students i, i'm a marginalized and actually what's happened to him legally is so disgraceful. it's

so completely clear. but the law apply to julian, and the law replied to say you or i, or anybody who might be watching you in this country is quite a different thing. the julian has been picked up to make an example of him and the suffering he's going through is intended to dissuade other people from doing what he did. now. i personally believe, but what he did was an incredible contribution to public understanding is very much part of our understanding of what transparency should be an important debate that he brought to us. i feel about what, what, what ro, secrecy, and transparency should have in the world. and i think the public haven't really been able to sort of focus on that or not because distracted. i all the, all the lies and smear, which is a monumental proportions against you. and it's quite extraordinary. the willis being completely pulled over our eyes. i think the, it is this

a calling saying because of the obama and the bomber administration decided not to do this. it was, it was from who actually took the faction trumps ministration to actually get students. and i had hoped that by would drop it because it is essentially an assault on journalism and it ties into what's happening in our country as well. i think we should be really worried about, you know, our government is looking at legislation today about how you know, about official secrets and, you know, it's tending to already the public interest defense. that is, you know, when, when you leave something and you can then go to court and say, this was in the public interest. well that's, that was removed by mrs batch. but all the other arguments that might have defended . i mean, i'm sure some of your audience would have seen and seen care unlikely in hospital my sexual secrets about catherine gum. the way that i've been emerson,

the famous q c, who defended catherine then, was able to protect. i'm told i'm, you know, wouldn't, wouldn't be a defense in the future. and so it is very wiring what happens and all of these things fit together. and, and fundamentally, those people who are trying to keep the public informed appeared to be in retrace. the moments and institutions are being support who are not on youth organizations. i think needs to get out on the front and trying to defend things which are getting too hung up on things like the definition of a journalist. well, what is the journalist today? well actually in the new media where anybody can blog shortly, gender, some of the values robin, the job description. and so i think that went well losing math and this attendance . i think that the traditional media to get hung up for self interested purposes in terms of what a definition as a genesis i being a free loss, janice, all my career. probably so and i, i found freelance journalist can be evangelist about the ethics and i see that and

a lot of lawyers. and i think that we need to really look at trying to find a way of understanding who we need to believe. and it's incredibly complicated, but those people like junior science, you've made such a contribution to getting marchmont ron smith. thank you. and you can watch our interview with julian a sounds and catherine gun on our youtube channel. well, we've just been discussing f canister country, devastated over decades by new colonialist intervention from nato nations. but as a prime minister barak johnson's government seems more preoccupied with the debate around statues of races, trafalgar square legend before flint is to be doing with a new sculpture, celebrating resistance against colonial rule. joining me now is the artist behind the professor sampson can bother fans and welcome to going underground. so your sculpture is been selected to be on the 4th splint in trafalgar square in the center of london looked over by a nelson various colonial other statues. they say the 4th split is future may be

reserve. queen elizabeth g dies, who is the baptist preacher, john chil, him wear who you depict in this sculpture? don't you think we will be unknown to a lot of people? and for me, that's what actually inspired everybody bring their own story to target square, where they for media from america, africa, we now was invited to propose i thought, well, i would do something on that, please me, something to me, even if it doesn't mean much public way somehow i thought maybe by going specific i could go universe. so that's what happened. don't simply dive in 1960. during a rising he was protesting against corner injustices. and one of the just, this is actually the wearing of hot before white people. you few

can we bring those away people you only have to take it off. in fact, a all, you know, just simple shoes and yeah, don't you don't but stood up against this. we can support for me. trained you can see under plenty don't trolley an english missionary, and he staged his photograph, months before the uprising and distributed the form of a gun to support and amongst his followers. and yes, so when you look at the photograph of ordinary, but actually these 2 main, one white black wedding had together, it was pretty briskly, but the more so the half is a bit like taking the knee famously called the deplorable. at least the black lives matter movement by bars. johnson's i'm secretary yes, i think this issue is still going on. it's who gets to where the hot

or get so we have i think it's, i think some members of society thinks that may be other members of thought shouldn't be wearing the hats and you shouldn't be supporting people like that wanting fighting for we call it call you to basically, yeah, so that they are hot becomes a metal for many things. what do you mean when you said that your selection is a litmus test for how much you belong in british society? this was before black lives, massa and george floyd 2 years ago. but these are the most p, as in africa, was a black person, new experience, and they always medicine for me. and i wanted to build an appetite from the public to go specific. it's one thing to say we need diversity. ah will black people. but it seems quite another to start putting detail to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to black experience and for me don't name,

but begins to put detail to the african experience. tolerance. we need tolerance and diversity. i mean, you must be in your reaction then to the oligarch owned media here in this country saying this sculptures of a terrorist and then site or a murder, a racist and the same sort of media that obviously once churchill is still in parliament square, obviously responsible for the bangle family, so maybe in the corner a for to describe the joint she was working because i'm sure that that behaves, that are talking about trying to discredit you now. him. yeah. because they knew actually that he would, he's appraising was more symbolic. and in fact is full as i q team of passivity, of kind of not being proactive enough doing the rising. because for him, the appraisal was symbolic. so i think these hearts will still need to kind of stuck in becoming a st. and they also decrease the church, you know,

as soon as they put down their pricing, the also went into destroys church and the spectacular photographs of the church on the internet as well. and they appear to be doing the same way because this hot, really, although the chip, it's just going down at the same time seems to be or seem to be rising into into significant somehow historical significance if you like. but the white man is shorter than the black revolutionary in this particular sculpture. ready sites don't read him or does it, and i can tell you one thing john, charlie is actually when we say i size this to say that he's of this size of the statues on the square. so he is the normal size will cover this way. well, joncelyn balloons, the like a cost i'm showing the got to goes up. the mini won't be thrown

faster if that's bad, i think the disgust please the size. what that size me see when this structure goes up. i think that the 2 figures for me are fighting for a condition, the tangle and to make sense of the structured have to go round and there's an animation my practice as an artist is the low down film. you look at film posters, we can pick the most straightforward examples, are still possibly stars, always big size and the support is always small. but in then i think it's christian. what size me one could say, perhaps this is a monument to charlie. and maybe in this project, more people are going to have to read up about the history of malawi and the anti colonial struggle. you described yourself as a situationist. i wondered whether you had any temptation to emulate some of the

other for splinters. hans haka had the city of london shap prices around it. i'm not saying you could have had that around when john surely but jim, but it was the situation is still a lead advance. capitalism breeds dis satisfaction. we attempted to add things to the sculpture to make it more apparent. the connections between these 2 figures and ordinary londoners everyday lives in advance capitalism. they spoke of notes on their form of representation, but we interested in the socialized proxies, social side of art. and they were also interested in alternative economy to, to, to, to, to copy school. and this is the gift and in africa, it's called and development. we, i'm coming from, but actually the gift economy enough, it gets too robust. one place with a copy towards media struggling to crack. i mean, i'm going to finish by just saying that boris johnson,

the u. k. prime minister will no doubt dr. pas, you're sculpture every day. he said, the problem is not about africa that we are in charge, but we are not in charge any more. what do you, what do you make of boris johnson's view of, of the, in effect, the issues in this work in trafalgar square. that's about to happen. actually, i would like to put it to him that i think this is the world is coming to africa in my opinion, in my travels and quite a bit. now in asia, america and europe, what you have now offering your company to my pi leaves off on what is capital leaving off a little black culture. and this black, conscious coming from africa for me is still there way around it's. it's not the world that changes africa. i think it's africa, the changes the world. it's well, it can be to africa. where they, this thing is about place. that's another thing. but i know for sure that the so

called gift economy, where it's not going to go away and i'm sure it's going to help the last word compensate of it. what do you have in the community? what do you have is the gift professor fans and gamble, thank you. that's over the show. will be back saturday, 27 years to the david carlos, the jackal, global and eco, you'll freedom fighter or terrorist. depending on who you believe was captured by french forces into don until then keep in touch with social media and tell us who, what do you think should be celebrated or commemorated in your town or city square? ah, ah, the the other stuff. and then you need to talk to someone who

can be able to find a more than that, even when i'm in a position that we need to make on it for me. i don't want you to know about what it was, what you're doing today. i'm doing it, but it was, i got to know how to get put in the office and going to be as long as i can. that's what you would need to do is that quote, should oh,

when i would show the wrong one, i'll just don't rule out the thing because after an engagement equal the trail went to many find themselves. well, the part we choose to look for common ground. ah, [000:00:00;00]

ah, ah, new york governor andrew cuomo for the fall of the very cause he and the democratic party vocally supported the made to movement as you steps down the middle sex scandal. revealed pentagon document shed light on how the us department of defense pressures movie produces to portray the american military in a favorable light. i'm a covering this to you, k prime minister boris johnson under fire. again, after the merge that nearly 800000 pounds was spent on paintings for downing street, it comes to me growing public and grow to pay fries for teachers and police, as well as a tiny pay rise offered to those covert in battle. the n h. s. stuff well the extra