done in $27.00 and also gave shelter to julian aside in his home, in 2010 in the wake of the release of the wall logs. he's the founder of london frontline club for journalists. welcome back on to going underground. it wasn't that long ago. i seem to remember that there were journalists, your frontline club telling us things were going fine in this war after 911. we'll give you the saudis, that we're more involved in afghanistan. you were embedded soldiers in helmand, after serving the british army and you get sloppier. what do you make of events now and i tv screens? yes, i did. i did 3 beds. actually. i was embedded with my own old regiment. i'd been a soldier myself in the old days. and yes, you right. that's been so much news and discussion of this, this war that there's a factor to go on. on the 20 year. we've been in a kind of phone for 20 years, very long time. and so i think today people are slightly dumbfounded and,

and don't quite see what it was. it was all for i didn't get makes sense to people . i think the reporting was been for quite poor. and i think people's understanding of what happens that doesn't make sense. i think people are very confused about what's happening now. i mean, the thing that i take about it is, is something that a friend of mine said who lost the calcium. actually it was a cousin and how, what people were saying that and they, they were going to start making the sacrifice, but they see that was to protect us and to protect person from from terrorism. and so i think people are quite concerned as to where, where does that stand now? i mean, are we protected them? that doesn't seem much to take home. doesn't say much that we've golf after 20 years of war. and what is going to be a good soldiers? did they know that britain had previously supported the merger dean that became the talent, the this term taliban that is used all the time. i didn't, i didn't find

a huge amount of understanding of afghanistan within the british army. i felt that people did genuine to be the soldiers, generally believe they were doing good. they believe that they were asked to try to help people. that's what soldiers would say. and i think there was a sudden i even see, i didn't think we understood our history. i mean we lost the whole army there in 181842. and we just lost 456 soldiers over 20 years. that is the chief. nothing is what i find quite interesting about in terms of soldiers is soldiers. very proud of being in the british army in the british army hasn't actually lost very many wars in its entire history. in fact, one of the ones we lost was the one we mentioned 842 and i got mixed on. but we just lost 2. was going on in iraq over the last 20 years, which had then saw a reputation. that doesn't seem to be

a recognition of that because we just play in the americans. so i think there's a lot of confusion about what's happening that's going to take a long time to digest. i'm sure the british army last in many more places than that . i'm thinking this is the propaganda in the british army clearly, but they, they want to tell where they weren't told that a graveyard. i mean, they were actually serious allegations of british soldiers torturing and killing children. and as you know, but i mean, i think we get back to this idea of what ger and commanding offices. although often you are a bug that may help me any excuse. you know, you know the journal, you had afghan officials in the front club. i seem to remember, and they would talk about post conflict development and all sorts of things. it was all rubbish. no, i think i don't think it was rubbish. i think they were the intentions, but that was a fundamental mistake. clearly i call all the soldiers. i speak to, i don't think that many of i speak to would consider the whole thing a waste of time. i haven't quite caught that fall. yes. but they do feel that they

made a terrible mistake by staying in also the initial invasion of outcomes. when they kicked out, that's how the barman and defeated them effectively and then stayed on for what purpose, because they weren't rebuilding, if you compare what the russians did, not kind of what the americans and brits just on. it's very interesting. in 1979, the russians were not going to stop 10 whole years and then then with the features and left. but they had intended to stay. and so they invested last in the country. they invested into an infrastructure that, you know, a lot of doctors or civil servants. you need not kind of sounds. they were trained by the russians all that time ago. and there is the section that we in 20 years. and i think it's quite important to take my 79. i've got a song, it's so fat that has been complex that ever since 970 not. i think shocking is that we've been 20 years of that we've, we've contributed to that. of course, it was

a big cold war thing when we were supporting the much dean against the russians during 7989. but essentially when they look at the russians, at least they say they left the dead tank weekly. mess a little bit more and we didn't the part so much scrap metal. but you see that the afghans have a thing about the enemies, but the enemies have the guns, but the africans have the time and they've proven they've been proven right. we, you know, 20 is where out they want. i mean, it's almost hard to remember the breathless reports by bbc and other reports as in 2122 and talking about victory. i mean, was the media controlled, i mean, and who smuggled yourself in, in persian gulf or one to become one of the only uncontrolled journalists and covering that war? i know you were embedded and have cancer, but with a journalist controlled is that why people in britain, in the united states clearly did not get an accurate picture of the impact of

native the nation troops in afghanistan? yes, i think there's a lot to be said for that, but your opinion on what you just said because effectively in the scuffle way. yes, i did the disguise myself, the british soldier having left 5 years and was a john on controls. the attempt to control janice in the 1st gulf war was very intense in the 2nd go. what the, that the army had done is they, they develop something called embedding. where what they would do is they would control jonas by exchanging access for independence. so if you became an embedded journalists and i've done them 5, i know you said they didn't get access to both sides of the complex. you got very controlled access, you have no logistical independent, logistical. it's very controlled access. and if they didn't like what you're reporting, you were not invited to do so again. so there's no question about it by doing so

you exchange your independence for and for access, but i'm afraid it was very effective because it was run by an outfit called media operations. and you know, it's all in the name. i mean, you know, journalists were the subjects of an operation by the british army. i'm to effectively control outputs. now, in a sense, you might reasonably say, look, mom was, is about, you know, intimation of war and the digital age become more important to armies. and i think that's bad point, but who should information warfare be directed again? should it be directed against the enemy, world opinion? should it be defensive or offensive? where i have issue where i was rather disappointed was a very great deal of the efforts by the media operations was directed at keeping public support for the war game. rather than informing the public actually about what's going on. i think journalists, because the pictures you've got on them, that was so amazing. i mean you get awards for this amazing stop the access to

frontline reporting with extraordinary through, through this embedding. but ultimately, i think it, we failed the rich public because we didn't inform them about what's happening. and i think, you know, still today, you know, the arguments delivered by the army of we should still be there. i'm sort of miss the point. i think we haven't really nailed the question of whether, you know, whether the was we have a delivered in iraq and afghanistan. have they made say they made us less. it seems to me suddenly the laugh. and obviously tens of millions killed wounded or displaced because americans will recognize what you say about in bidding from, from vietnam. but while you are saying, look, i was embedded on in the, i recognize the constrains some journalists, they came back detesting. those that weren't embedded. did you, what did you think as a recriminations against robert fisk, the late robert fisk, one of the greatest journalists, arguably of trying to hit as century?

maybe it seemed a lot of reporters with n g and his body wasn't cold and they were saying, yeah, he wasn't a real journalist to a, the was, you know, as if, because he wasn't embedded, he wasn't a journalist. well, i don't wanna get into the business of defending individuals. i'm actually more interested. i'm not even that one seems to criticize individual organization. i think collectively journalistically we have failed to inform the public, and i agree. you mentioned robert bass and he was certainly a voice who told people things i didn't want, you know, we want to hear and there were other voices like that but that we will base no. but i feel that there has been a tendency for journalism to slightly close off. it's almost like an acceptable window of reporting. i'm not saying it doesn't contribute to a public service. it does even if it's in its current form, i believe it fails massively in, in terms of failing to properly explain what's not in,

not accept window. and i feel that's, you know, voice is on the outside. we don't care or listen to it all. peril, and i think, you know, both the african and iraq was which we lost when you know what expedition it was a choice. it's quite tenuous, but link as to how they were. we are protecting our populations. were so just protecting us. how is that really happening? i didn't think that was necessarily proven or explained. and as i said earlier, certainly the situation is being made worse by, by, you know, by failing to actually support and when an achieve any objectives. fundament for the afghans knew when they thought also does there one that we were going to go one day and 2 that we weren't really that helped them because we were carrying gums. and so, you know, yeah, looks at that and see the foreigners, that country, you know, can you come? what are you going to do? you're going to fight back? i mean, and in

a sense we misunderstood the fact that we do that thinking with doing good because we persuade also and a lot about news management. when actually you really have to question what we're doing there. and ism is terrorism over the obviously you increase, i know you're involved with this big translator story rather than ordinary afghans run the agenda is on the ground that people have written that will give us these translators. i mean, it's difficult to ask. you've given you are obviously help helping them and, and i feel a lot of compassion for them. can you understand that all of the global to consider them traitors if not even, obviously the taliban do. because they worked with nato nation troops and have done and therefore these translators of justifiably enemy comparative. no, i mean i have that view. i'm don't necessarily subscribe. really. i do. i've been, i'm very much aware of it. i, i feel i feel compassion of anybody at risk. i think these people have been put in risk and i think we should be saving everybody if we possibly can. i do. i do come in the media for getting together. it was quite extraordinary. i mean,

it was led by about by 2 genesis sunday times in a time to spend a garden, just an unnamed lawyer who put this together. i commend the press for doing that. i think the media needs to the costs of the people it works with. but i, likewise, i'm the army saving it's trans. they, which is much more what you're talking about. i. the journalist would like to believe that we can report and have no impact. and it's always disappointing for us, i think a good journal. so they feel that you're actually impacting and thing we do want to try and do some good. we want to leave the well, the better place. i think that's an idealism and that's fun to mentally. if you can give the public accurate information that they can make better decisions and that that's a whole some thing. but it's clearly failing in the digital. ready world, i'm in information where you become a tool of one side or both sides are all sides. and these things get incredibly complicated. vonner,

stop you there more from the founder of the front line club on the persecution of wiki leaks publisher julian sons. after this break plus anti colonial sculpture comes to the heart of imperialism. ah, i use a lot of the the, the, the survival guide

is my goal is going to start at the federal reserve. so there are, you don't know what you took research ration came. well, look at the rest, the 7 years bill it separately or what kind of record me welcome back. i'm still here with the founder of london's from 9 club born smith . you're speaking to me from the house that you gave, assign them to before president career of ecuador, to julie and sons. i mean, what do you make of jo biden's justice department claiming that they have a justified appeal against the british court, saying that he'll be protected in custody in the united states? i'm. i'm incredibly disappointed. i'm slightly heartbroken about it. i mean, i know julian personally and he's not the person. his character is not as described

by people who denigrate. and julian has got up every day, every day feeling but he's, he's serving the public. i'm troubled by the way that we can gang off against somebody who's got something that we say, but might not quite fit into what lots of people want to have. that actually we benefit by hiring, hiring people and, and boys like julians, i, i'm, you know, a marginalized and actually what's happened jim legally is so disgraceful. it's so completely clear. but the law applied to julia and the lower applied to say you or i, or anybody who might be watching you in this country is quite a different thing. the julian has been picked up to make an example of him and the suffering he's going through is intended to dissuade all the people from doing what he did. now. i personally believe, but what he did was an incredible contribution to public understanding is very much

part of our understanding of what transparency should be an important debate that he brought to us. i feel about what, what, what role secrecy and transparency should have in the world. and i think the public haven't really been able to sort of focus on that or not because distracted by all the, all the lies and smear, which is a monumental proportions against you. and it's quite extraordinary the wounds being completely pulled over our eyes. i think the it is disappointing because the bomber into the bomber administration decided not to do this. it was, it was from who actually took the faction thompson's race to actually get studio. and i had the bible would drop it because it is essentially an assault on journalism and it ties into what's happening in our country as well. i think we should be really worried about, you know, our government is looking at legislation today about how you know about secrets and,

you know, it's tending to already the public interest defense. that is, you know, when, when you leave something and you can then go to court and say, this was in the public interest. well, that's, that was removed by mrs pacha. but all the other arguments that might have defended . i mean, i'm sure some of your audience would have seen seen care and likely in hospital my sexual secrets about but you know, the catherine gum, the way that i've been emerson, the famous qsc who defended catherine then was able to protect, i'm told, you know, wouldn't wouldn't be a defense in the future. and so it is very wiring what happens and all of these things sort of fit together. and, and fundamentally, those people who are trying to keep the public informed, appeared to be in retrace of the moments. and our institutions are being supported, not on use organizations, i think need to get out on the front and try and defend things which are getting

too hung up on things like the definition of a journalist. well, what is the journalist today? well actually in the new media where anybody can blog, surely journalism has values robin a job description. and so i think that went well losing math and this attendance i think for the traditional media to get hung up for self interested purposes in terms of what a definition as a genesis i being a free loss, janice, all my career clinic probably. so when i found freelance journalist can be even jealous about the ethics and i see that in a lot of bloggers and i think that we need to really look at trying to find a way of understanding who we need to believe. and it's incredibly complicated, but those people like junior songs you've made such a contribution to i'm guessing marchmont ron smith. thank you. and you can watch our interview with julian a sounds and catherine gun on our youtube channel. well we've just been

discussing gather starlette country, devastated over decades by new colonialist intervention from native nations. but as a prime minister, barak johnson government seems more preoccupied with the debate around statues of races. trafalgar square legend before flint is to be doing with a new sculpture, celebrating resistance against colonial rule. joining me now is the artist behind it. professor sampson can bother the fans and welcome to going underground. so your sculptures means elected to be on the 4th flint in trafalgar square in the center of london looked over by a nelson various colonial other statues. they say the 4th split is future, maybe reserved for queen elizabeth g guys who is the baptist preacher, john chil, him where, who you depict in this sculpture? i don't you think we will be unknown to a lot of people? and for me, that's what actually inspired everybody bring their own story to target square, where they for media from america, africa, we now was invited to propose i thought,

well, i would do something on that. please send me something to me. even if it doesn't mean much public, because somehow i thought maybe by going specific i could go universe and that's what happened. don't simply died in 1960, during an uprising he was protesting against your injustices. and one thing just this is actually the wearing of hot before white people. you few can we bring those away people, you only have to take it off. in fact, a all, you know, to simple shoes. and yeah, don't you don't but stood up against this. we can support for me is framed, you can see on the plane, don't trolley an english missionary. and he staged his photograph, months before the uprising and distributed the form of a gun to support

and amongst his followers. and yes, so when you look at the photograph of ordinary, but actually these 2 main, one white black wedding had together was pretty suppressive. but the more to the half is a bit like taking the ne famously called the deplorable, at least the black lives matter movement. by bars, johnson's i'm secretary yes, i think this issue is still going on. it's who gets to where the hoss will get. we have, i think it's, i think some members of society think stephanie, be the members of such shouldn't be wearing the hats and you shouldn't be supporting people like that wanting fighting for we call it call you to basically yes. so that they are hot becomes the middle full, many things. what do you mean when you said that your selection is a litmus test for how much you belong in british society?

this was before black lives, massa and george floyd of 2 years ago. but these are the most p, as in africa, was a black person, new experience, and they always medicine for me. and i wanted to tell if there was an appetite from the public to go specific. it's one thing to say we need diversity. ah will black people, but it's quite another to start putting detail to, to, to, to, to, to, to, to black experience. and for me don't, she begins to put detail to the african experience in color and we need tolerance and diversity. i mean, you must be in your reaction then to the oligarch owned media here in this country saying this sculptures of a terrorist and then site or a murder, a racist and the same sort of media that obviously once churchill is still in

parliament square, obviously responsible for the bangle family, so maybe in the corner a for to discredit don't you was working because i'm sure that that behaves that are talking about trying to discredit you now. him. yeah. because they knew actually that he would, he's appraising was more symbolic. and in fact is full as acute team of opportunity, of kind of not being proactive enough doing the rising. because for him, the appraisal was symbolic. so i think there was no need to kind of stuck in becoming a st. and they also decrease these church. you know, as soon as they put down their pricing, the also went into destroys church and this protected photographs of the church on the internet as well. and they appear to be doing the same way because as it's hot, really, although the chip, it's just going down at the same time seems to be or seem to be rising into into significant somehow historical significance if you like. and the white man is

shorter than the black revolutionary in this particular sculpture. ready sites don't read him, does it? and i can tell you what the thing john, charlie is actually when we say i size this to say that he's of this size of the statues on the square. so he is, the normal size will cover the swell joncelyn balloons, the like a cost i'm showing the got to goes up, meaning won't be thrown. if that's that. i think that the discussion, crazy size. what that size me see when this structure goes up. i think that the 2 figures for me fighting for a condition, the tangle and to make sense of the structured have to go round. and there's an animation my practice as an artist and look around film. you look at film posters,

we can pick the most straightforward examples are still possible is always big size and the support is always small. but in then i think it's kristen of what size me. one can say, perhaps this is a monumental charlie, and maybe in this project, more people are going to have to read up about the history of malawi and the anti colonial struggle. you described yourself as a situationist. i wondered whether you had any temptation to emulate some of the other 4 splintered hands. haka had the city of london shap prices around it. i'm not saying you could have had that around jim when john surely but jim, but it was the situation is still a lead advance. capitalism breeds dis satisfaction. we attempted to add things to the sculpture to make it more apparent. the connections between these 2 figures and ordinary londoners everyday lives in advance capitalism. they

spoke of notes on the form of representation, but we interested in the socialized proxies, the social side of art. and they were also interested in alternative economy to, to, to, to, to capital. and this is the gift and in africa. go down to development coming form, but actually the gift economy enough, it gets too robust in one place with a copy towards me struggling to crock. i mean, i've got to finish by just saying that boris johnson, the u. k. prime minister will no doubt dr. pas, you're sculpture every day. he said, the problem is not about africa that we're in charge, but we are not in charge any more. what do you, what do you make of boris johnson's view of, of the, in effect, the issues in this work in trafalgar square. that's about to happen. actually, i would like to put it to him that i think this is the world is coming to africa in my opinion, in my travels and quite a bit. now in asia, america and europe,

what you have now, a little bit off rica. you come to my pile leaves off on what is comfortable leaving off a little black culture and this black conscious coming from africa for me. he's still there way around it's. it's not well that changes africa. i think it's africa, the changes the world. it's well, it can be to africa where they, this thing is about place. that's another thing, but i know for sure that the so called gift economy square. so going to go away and i'm sure it's going to help the last word company out of it. what do you have in the community? what do you have is the gift professor fans and gamble and thank you. that's the show will be back on saturday, 27 years to the day they call us the jackal global. and d colonial freedom fighter terrorist. depending on who you believe was captured by french forces into don until then keep in touch with social media and tell us who,

what do you think should be celebrated or commemorated in your town or city square? ah, i think it's part of the mental health revolution. we increasingly freeze political claims inside the language of mental health became more calmer. so if you disagree or something i said on this program, you know, just say i just agree with you. i think you're wrong because of the following problems in your evidence or logic. you say your micro grass mate, you say you triggered me. you said you hard me again some psychological way, just news or psychological terms. and i guess an enormous problem for politics because it's almost impossible to have a discourse on that terrain. the

the other stuff and need to talk to someone who can find a more than that, even when i'm in a position that we need to make on it for me, i want to just about what i was looking for the day join me, but it was i got to know good. how do you they can put up with me going to be as long food. i want to tell you the other hand that what you would need is

that quote, the headlining this alberto police say the use of violence is part of germany's legal system as they defend officers. rough handling of anti lockdown protests early this month was due hard criticism from a top us human rights official security and assault cases, once again in london. hi cole, it's time. washington appealed to expedite him to the united states. a former british opposition leaders lending his support for the whistleblower under threat to serve his compression. what is also i'm the is the threats of example so all about take my 1st helicopter right before a better reason. i'll pay joins a helicopter cru battling the devastating wildfires for the ravaged rushes far east,

but month.