the, the, the with i'm action or can see we're getting underground and covering the live, told by the so called mainstream media coming up in the show. as the us sense gun ships into afghanistan is why do you suppose withdrawal from the country we speak to award winning joined the symptom of british army. captain one smith, about 2 decades of lives, told about the war and ask if truth can be found in the fog of war. while the western media differ to power and is u. k bright minister bars johnson, the government backs new colonialist actions around the world. we speak to the artist to his bringing colonial sculpture to the heart of imperialism,

london's trafalgar square. all the more coming up in today's getting underground, but 1st taking place today is another extradition hearing in the case of julian, the san j trial. if could decide the fate of journalism around the world, there were helix. publisher is famous among other things for the african war logs, one of the largest leeks in u. s. military history. they detailed the horror of the native war and f can it's done, including hundreds of on reported civilian killings. so what was it all for now that us troops appear to be finally leaving canada san joining me now from norfolk and the u. k. is warn smith, a former soldier and award winning journalist who was embedded with the british army in afghanistan and 27. and also gave shelter to julian. a sergeant is home in 2010. in the wake of the release of the wall logs is the founder of london's front bank club for journalists. welcome back, gone to going underground. it wasn't that long ago. i seem to remember that there were journalists that your front line club telling us things were going fine in this war after 911. we'll do it with the saudi that we're more involved in

afghanistan. you were embed, it would soldiers in helmand, after serving the british army and you get sloppier. what, what do you make of events now and i tv screens. yes, i did. i did 3 beds. actually i was embedded with my own old regiment. i'd been a soldier myself in the old days. and yes, you right, that's been so much news and discussion of this, this war. this is a factor to go on on the 20 year. we've been in a kind of fun for 20 years, very long time. and so i think today people are slightly dumbfounded and, and don't quite see what it was. it was all for. i didn't think it makes sense to people. i think the reporting was been for quite poor. and i think people's understanding of what happens that doesn't make sense. i think people are very confused about what's happening now. i mean, the thing that i take about it is, is something that a friend of mine said who lost the calcium. actually it was

a cousin and how, what people were saying that and they, they were going to start making the sacrifice, but they see that was to protect us and to protect person from from terrorism. and so i think people are quite concerned as to where, where does that stand now? i mean, we protected them. that doesn't seem much to take home. there doesn't seem much that we've golf after 20 years of war. and what is going to be a good soldiers? did they know that britain had previously supported the merger dean that became the talent, the this term taliban that is used all the time. i didn't, i didn't find a huge amount of understanding of african. it's within the british army, i felt that people did genuine to be the soldier. generally believe they were doing good. they believe that they were asked to try to help people. that's what soldiers would say. and i think there was a sudden i even see, i didn't think we understood our history. i mean we lost the whole army there in

181842. and we just lost 456 soldiers over 20 years. that is the chief. nothing is what i find quite interesting about in terms of soldiers is soldiers. very proud of being in the british army. the british army hasn't actually lost very many wars in its entire history. in fact, one of the ones we lost was the one we mentioned 842, and we just lost 2 wars in afghanistan and iraq over the last 20 years, which had then saw a reputation. that doesn't seem to be a recognition of that because we just play in the americans. so i think there's a lot of confusion about what's happening that's going to take a long time to digest. i'm sure the british army last in many more places than that . i'm thinking this is the propaganda in the british army clearly, but they, they want to tell where they weren't told it's a graveyard. i mean, they were actually serious allegations of british soldiers torturing and killing

children as you know. but i mean, i think we get back to this idea of what ger let alone commanding offices. although often you are a bug that may help me any excuse. you know, you know the journal, you had afghan officials in the front club. i seem to remember. and they would talk about post conflict development and all sorts of things. it was all rubbish. no, i think i don't think it was rubbish. i think they were the intentions, but that was a fundamental mistake. clearly i call all the soldiers i speak to. i don't think that many of i speak to would consider the whole thing a waste of time. i haven't quite caught that fall. yes. but they do feel that they made a terrible mistake by staying in after the initial invasion of outcomes. when they kicked out, that's how the bowman and defeated them effectively and then stayed on for what purpose, because they weren't rebuilding, if you compare what the russians didn't understand what the americans and brits are just on this very interesting. in 1979,

the russians were not going to solve the 10 whole years and then then with the features and left. but they had intended to stay. and so they invested last in the country. they invested into an infrastructure that, you know, a lot of doctors or civil servants. you may not kinda sounds. they were trained by the russians all that time ago. and there is the section that we in 20 years. and i think it's quite important to take my 79. i've got a song, it's fat that has been complex that ever since 970 not. i think shocking is that we've been 20 years of that we've, we've contributed to that. of course, it was a big cold war thing when we were supporting the much dean against the russians during 7989. but essentially when they look at the russians, at least they say they left dead tank weekly hom, s a little bit more and we didn't the part so much scrap metal. but you see that the afghans have the same about the enemies, but the enemies have the guns, but the africans have the time and they've proven they've been proven right. we,

you know, 20 is where out they want. i mean, it's almost hard to remember the breathless reports by bbc and other reports as in 2122 and talking about victory. i mean, was the media controlled. i mean, who smuggled yourself in the persian gulf war one to become one of the only uncontrolled journalists and covering that war? i know you were embedded and have cancer, but with a journalist controlled is that why people in britain, in the united states clearly did not get an accurate picture of the impact of native the nation troops in afghanistan? yes, i think there's a lot to be said for that, but your opinion on what you just said because effectively in the scuffle way. yes, i did the disguise myself, the british soldier having left 5 years and was a john on controls. the attempt to control janice in the 1st gulf war was very

intense in the 2nd go. what the, the army had done is they were they develop something called embedding. where what they would do if they would control jonas by exchanging access for independence. so if you became an embedded journalists and i've done them 5, i know you said they didn't get access to both sides of the conflict. you got very controlled access, you have no logistical independent, logistical. it's very controlled access. and if they didn't like what you're reporting, you were not invited to do so again. so there's no question about it by doing so you exchange your independence for and for access, but i'm afraid it was very effective because it was run by an outfit called media operations. and you know, it's all in the name. i mean, you know, journalists were the subjects of an operation by the british on. i'm to effectively control outputs. now, in a sense, you might reasonably say, look, mom was, is about, you know,

information of war and the digital age become more important to armies. and i think that's point, but who should that information will be directed again? should it be directed against the enemy welled opinion? should it be defensive or offensive, where i have issue where i was rather disappointed was a very great deal of the efforts by the media operations was directed at keeping public support for the war getting rather than informing the public actually about what's going on. i think journalists, because the pictures you've got on them, that was so amazing. i mean you get awards for this amazing stop the access to frontline reporting with extraordinary through, through this embedding. but ultimately, i think it, we failed the rich public because we didn't inform them about what's happening. and i think, you know, still today, you know, the arguments delivered by the army. we should still be there sort of missed the points. i think we haven't really nailed the question of whether, you know,

whether the was we have a delivered in iraq and afghanistan. have they made a face where they made us less? it seems to me suddenly the laugh and obviously tens of millions killed wounded or displaced. americans will recognize what you say about in bidding from, from vietnam. but while you are saying, look, i was embedded against on and the i recognize the constrains some journalists, they came back detesting those that weren't embedded. did you, what did you think of recriminations against robert fisk, the late robert fisk, one of the greatest journalists, arguably of trying to hit as century? maybe it seemed a lot of reporters with n g and his body wasn't cold and they were saying, yeah, he wasn't a real journalist. he was, you know, as if, because he wasn't imbedded, he wasn't a journalist. well, i don't wanna get into the business of defending individuals. i'm actually more interested. i'm not even that one seems to criticize individual organization. i

think collectively journalistically, we have failed to inform the public. my agree, i'm you, you mentioned robert faced and he was certainly a voice who told people things i didn't want, you know, always want to hear. and there were other voices like that but that we will base no . but i, i feel that there has been a tendency for journalism to slightly close off. it's almost like an acceptable window of reporting. i'm not saying it doesn't, doesn't contribute for public service. it does even if it's in its current form, i believe it fails massively. in, in terms of failing to properly explain what's not in, not accept wind. i'm and i feel that's, you know, voice is on the outside. we don't care or listen to our peril. and i think, you know, the african and iraq was which we lost when you know what expedition, it was a choice. it's quite tenuous, but link as to how they were. we are protecting our populations west,

so just protecting also how is that really happening? i didn't think that was necessarily proven or explained. and as i said earlier, certainly the situation is being made worse by, by, you know, by failing to actually support and when and achieve any objectives. fundament for the afghans knew when they thought also does there one that we were going to go one day and 2 that we weren't really that helped them because we were carrying gums. and so, you know, young african looks at that and see the foreigners, that country, you know, can come, what are you going to do? you're going to fight back. i mean, and in a sense we misunderstood the fact that we do that thinking with doing good because we persuade also, and a lot about news management. when actually you really have to question what we're doing there. and his mom is terrorism over the obvious. he increase, i know you're involved with this big translator story rather than ordinary afghans run the agenda is on the ground there. people have written that will give it these translators. i mean, it's difficult to ask. you've given you are obviously help helping them and,

and i feel a lot of compassion for them. can you understand that all of the global south to consider them traitors if not even, obviously the taliban do. because they worked with nato nation troops and have done and therefore these translators of justifiably enemy comparative. no, i mean i have that view. i'm don't necessarily subscribe. really. i do. i've been, i'm very much aware of it. i, i feel i feel compassion of anybody at risk. i think these people have been put in risk and i think we should be saving everybody if we possibly can. i do. i do come in the media. if i get things together, it was quite extraordinary. i mean, it was led by about by 2 genesis sunday times in a time to spend a garden, just an unnamed lawyer who, who put this together. i commend the press for doing that. i think the media needs to the costs of the people. it works with but i, likewise, i'm the army saving it's trans they, which is much more what you're talking about. i. the journalist would like to

believe that we can report and have no impact. and it's always disappointing for us . i think a good journal. so they feel that you're actually impacting and thing we do want to try and do some good. we want to leave the well, the better place. i think that's an idealism. and that fundamentally, if you can give the public accurate information that they can make better decisions and that that's a whole some thing. but it's clearly failing in the digital. ready world, i'm in information where you become a tool of one side or both sides are all sides. and these things get incredibly complicated. varner, stop you there more from the founder of the front line club on the prosecution of wiki leaks, publisher julia sons. after this break plus anti colonial sculpture comes to the heart of imperialism. so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy,

even from station let it be an arms race is often very dramatic. developments only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, a very critical time. time to sit down and talk with me ah ah, i use

the welcome back. i'm still here with the founder of london's from 9 club born smith. you're speaking to me from the house, and you gave assign them to before president career of ecuador to julian assange. i mean, what do you make of joe biden? this justice department claiming that they have a justified appeal against the british court, saying that he'll be protected in custody in the united states. i'm. i'm incredibly disappointed. i'm slightly heartbroken about it. i mean, i know julian personally and he's not the person. his character is not as described by people who denigrate, and julian has got off every day of is everyday feeling. but he's, he's serving the public. i'm troubled by the way that we can gang off against somebody who's got something to say,

but might not quite fit into what lots of people want to have. that actually we benefit by hiring, hiring people and, and boys like julians, i, i'm, you know, a marginalized and actually what's happened jim legally is so disgraceful. it's so completely clear. but the law applied to julia and the lower applied to say you or i, or anybody who might be watching you in this country is quite a different thing. the julian has been picked up to make an example of him and the suffering he's going through is intended to dissuade all the people from doing what he did. now. i personally believe, but what he did was an incredible contribution to public understanding is very much part of our understanding of what transparency should be an important debate that he brought to us. i feel about what, what, what ro, secrecy, and transparency should have in the world. and i think the public haven't really been able to sort of focus on that or not because distracted by all the,

all the lies and smear, which is a monumental proportions against you. and it's quite extraordinary. i'm the will as being completely pulled over our eyes. i think the it is disappointing because of the bomber into the bomber administration, decided not to do this. it was, it was from who actually took the faction trans trace to actually get students. and i had that bike with drop it because it is essentially an assault on journalism and it ties into what's happening in our country as well. i think we should be really worried about, you know, our government is looking at legislation today about how you know about secrets and, you know, it's tending to already the public interest defense. that is, you know, when, when you leave something and you can then go to court and say, this was in the public interest. well last that was removed by mrs. hatcher. but all the other arguments that might have defended. i mean,

i'm sure some of your audience would have seen and seen care and likely in hospital my sexual secrets about catherine gum. the way that i've been emerson, the famous qsc who defended catherine, then was able to protect, i'm told, you know, wouldn't, wouldn't be a defense in the future. and so it is very wiring what happens and all of these things sort of fit together. i'm and i'm from the mentally those people who are trying to keep the public informed, appeared to be in retrace of the moments and our institutions are being supported, not on news organizations. i think need to get out on the front and try and defend things which are getting too hung up on things like the definition of a journalist. well, what is the journalist today? well, actually in the new media where anybody can blog, surely jonathan has values robin a job description. and so i think that went well losing math and this attendance i

think for the traditional media to get hung up for self interested purposes in terms of what a definition as agenda says, i've been a free loss. janice, all my career clinic, probably so and i found freelance journalist can be evangelist about the ethics. and i see that in a lot of bloggers and i think that we need to really look at trying to find a way of understanding who we need to believe. and it's incredibly complicated. but those people like junior song should make such a contribution to i'm guessing marchmont von smith. thank you. and you can watch our interview with julian a sounds and catherine gun on our youtube channel. the. well, we've just been discussing gather stella country, devastated over decades by new colonialist intervention from nato nations. but as a prime minister barak johnson's government seems more preoccupied with the debates around statues of races, trafalgar square legend before flint is to be doing with a new sculpture, celebrating resistance against colonial rule. joining me now is the artist behind

it. professor sampson can bother fans and welcome to going underground. so your sculpture has been selected to be on the 4th plant in trafalgar square in the center of london looked over by a nelson and various colonial other statues. they say the 4th split is future may be reserved for queen elizabeth g guys who is the baptist preacher, john chil, him where, who you depict in this sculpture? don't you think we will be unknown to a lot of people? and for me, that's what actually inspired me. everybody bring their own story to target square, where they for media from america, africa, we now was invited to propose, i thought, well, i would do something on that. please send me something to me. even if it doesn't mean much public right somehow, i thought maybe by going specific i could go universal and that's what happened.

don't simply died in 1960, during an uprising he was protesting against your injustices. and one of the justices was actually the wearing of hot before white people. you few can we bring those away people over how long you have to take it off, in fact a all and simple shoes. and yeah, don't you them, but stood up against this. we could support for me framed you can see on the plain don't trolley an english missionary. and he staged his photograph, months before the uprising and distributed the form of a gun to support and amongst his followers. and yes, so when you look at the photograph ordinary, but actually these 2 main, one white black wedding has, together was pretty pretty, but the other half is a bit like taking the ne famously called the deplorable,

at least the black lives matter movement by bars. johnson's, i'm secretary. yes, i think this issue is still going on. it's who gets to where the hot or guests who have i think it's, i think some members of society in stephanie be the members of some shouldn't be wearing that hot and we shouldn't be supporting people like that wanting fighting for we call it call you to basically, yes, so that they are hot becomes a metal for many things. what do you mean when you said that your selection is a litmus test for how much you belong in british society? this was before black lives, massa and george floyd of 2 years ago. but these are the most v, as in africans, was a blacklist and new experience. and they always ministry for me. and i wanted to tell

the sales and appetite from the public to go specific. it's one thing to say, we need diversity ah, will black people, but it's quite another to start putting detail to, to, to, to, to, to, to the black experience. and for me don't you name, but begins to put detail to the african experience. we all are and so we need tolerance and diversity. i mean, you must be in your reaction then to the oligarch owned media here in this country saying this sculptures of a terrorist and then site or a racist and the same sort of media that obviously once churchill is still in parliament square, obviously responsible for the bangle family, so maybe the on your for to describe you don't you was working because i'm sure that that behaves, that people are talking about trying to discredit you now. yeah. because then you actually that he would, he's uprising was more symbolic. and in fact, it's for,

as i q theme of kind of not being proactive enough doing the pricing for him. the appraisal was symbolic. so i think we need to kind of stuck in becoming a st. and they also decrease these church, you know, as soon as they put down their pricing, the also went into destroys church and the spectacular photographs of the church on the internet as well. and they appear to be doing the same way because as his heart, really, although the chip is going down, the same time seems to be or seem to be rising into into significant somehow historical significance if you like. but the white man is shorter than the black revolutionary in this particular sculpture sites. don't read a mouth, does it. and i can tell you one thing, john, charlie is actually when we say i size this to say that he's of this

size of the statues on the square. so he is the normal size will cover this way. i well don't really balloons the like a cost. i'm showing the scott to goes up. the mini won't be thrown. if that's bad, i think that the discussion plays the size. what that size me see when this structure goes up. i think that i think the 2 figures for me fighting for a condition, the tangle and to make sense of the structured up to go round. and there's an animation my practices and i look around film. you look at fil posters, we could take the most straightforward examples are still post besides always big size and the support is always small. but in then i think it's also a question of what the size me. one can say, perhaps this is a monumental charlie, and maybe in this project,

more people are going to have to read up about the history of malawi and the anti colonial struggle. you described yourself as a situation is i wondered whether you had any temptation to emulate some of the other splintered hands. haka had the city of london shap prices around it. i'm not saying you could have had that around july when john surely but jim, but it was the situation is still a lead advance. capitalism breeds dis satisfaction. we attempted to add things to the sculpture to make it more apparent. the connections between these 2 figures and ordinary londoners everyday lives in advance capitalism. they spoke of notes on the form of representation, but we're interested in the socialized proxies, social side of art. and they were also interested in alternative economy to, to, to, to copy school. and this is a gift,

and in africa it's go down to development where i'm coming from. but actually the gift economy enough, because too robust is one place with a copy towards media struggling to crock. i mean, i've got to finish by just saying that boris johnson, the u. k. prime minister will no doubt drive past your sculpture every day. he said, the problem is not about africa that we are in charge, but we are not in charge any more. what do you, what do you make of boris johnson's view of, of the, in effect, the issues in this work in trafalgar square. that's about to happen. actually, i would like to put it to him that i think this is the world is coming to africa in my opinion, in my travels and i've talked quite a bit now in asia, america and europe. what you have now, a little bit for your company is my pi leaves off on what is capital leaving off a lot of black culture. and this block is coming from africa for me. he's still

down there way around it's. it's not the world that changes africa. i think it's africa, the changes that it's, well, it can be to africa where they this thing is about place. that's another thing. but i know for sure that the so called gift economy, where it's not going to go away and i'm sure it's gonna help the last word of it. so what do you have in the community? what do you have when is the gift? perhaps a fancy gonzalez. thank you. that's it for the show will be back saturday, 27 years in the david carlos the jackal global and the colonial freedom fighter terrorist. depending on who you believe was captured by french forces into done until then keep in touch with social media and tell us who what you think should be celebrated, commemorated in your town, or city square. ah, ah,

the the berlin police say the use of violence is part of germany's legal system in response to claims of employing excessive force against protesters at a recent anti lockdown rally. julian assad, supporters gathered outside london high court as it listened to washington's appeal to extradite the whistleblower to the u. s. a former british opposition leader was among those blending support to the founder german is under threat one oppression terms. what is also is the threat of example so all about take my 1st helicopter right, can be for a better reason. and r t i joined the helicopter cru battling the devastating wildfires that have.