nuclear annihilation. so is humanity's intelligence and collective knowledge. also the route of its own destruction and the only beneficiaries of billionaires looking to escape the planet in private rockets. joining me now is renowned for last for an ortho. ac grayling his new book. the frontiers of knowledge, explore the progress, barriers, and future of humanity when it comes to enlightenment. thank you so much, professor grayling for coming back on. if anyone thinks that they don't need to read this book, you imply that they have the only themselves to be to blame for not being blown to bits by appending in the nation drone. why? why is this not as it's eric? well, because i'm here. i can quote, the graph enforced always used in his novels, you know, only connect that if you are able to connect things together a bit, make better sense of them, your much more likely to make good decisions about what to do. you know, there's a wonderful anecdote about the great physicist the steven weinberg nobel prize winning physicist who when ronald reagan was contemplating pushing anti ballistic

missiles up in space. you may remember a kind of defense that was installed on satellites. weinberg said it doesn't bother me. the president reagan doesn't know any science, but it does bother me if he doesn't know any philosophy and history. and of course, the point was precisely that if you don't have context, then put scientific developments into context and see how science is changing history. if you don't do that 2 way, joining up then you're going to get into trouble. well, little, in fact, you know, i was cradled on the enforced his knee. that's how old i am. pretty we're. but i, i do the, with the quote from using which you don't use in the book when he said, i, maybe it's apocryphal, that all he sees himself was finding a smooth pebble or a pretty shell, the great ocean of truth before him. central to this book is what the more we know the less we know. yes, i mean,

it's really very striking facts about the history of knowledge, if you like, about until the beginning of modern times studies in the 16th the 17th century. people's fault has an increase of knowledge meant diminishment of ignorance and moving you. the less weight, more involved, and perhaps that implied to one day we would know everything. we went, understand everything. we have a complete picture of the universe, and we would have a grip on the truth. and of course, this is inspired by the model of knowledge. truth and certainty, which is provided by the great religions because the great religion say that they have the final place story about everything. but what's happened since the scientific revolution, many of the 17th century and everything is followed for matches. at the more we discover, the more we find out, the more knowledge we accumulate, the more questions are prompted. and it's been like occupying an island which is growing in the ocean. and the big in the i get the longer the shoreline of ignorance becomes. and we realized more and more and more how little we know give

you one very striking example of that. if you think of the enormous explosion of scientific knowledge, particle physics, quantum theory at one end of the scale, cosmetology at the other end of the scale, our understanding of the universe just in the last 100 years, huge explosion of knowledge about that. and what is the torture? it's torture. we have access to less than 5 percent of the mass density of the universe. less than 5 percent. the physical reality is accessible to to be investigation more than 95 percent of the didn't matter. doc, energy. no idea what it is, we can see some of its effects, but we don't know what it is. and so this is a beautiful example of how the more we know the more we realize the last minute. but of course, those who are religious around the world and you've had spectacular debates with maybe maybe actual clergymen, i will say, you know, ever since

a counselor nicely or whatever. they always said the bible or the koran nature in later centuries. these are not the truly the they open up questions and then there's a huge amount of ecumenical debate. is it really that me the 5 percent was is the 95 percent dog matters in that comparable to the divinity of christ and whether he is 3 people and so on. well, and the easiest thing in the world is to get mad in the controversy here, but you do have to remember that even the survey go on the bottom age 1617 century, the church, the catholic church to center. it was quite literally putting people to death for life excepting the literal truth of scripture. and you may remember that galileo was perform trial for saying that the moods flies around the sun, and he had to deny it in order to save his life. so i mean, because that extent, under age, the old idea, that's the truth about things that the complete picture was available to us in our

traditions. that was the thing that was revolutionized really by the rise of science and philosophy. and in the early modern period, we live in the world now, which is the inheritor of that very healthy kind of skepticism inquiry, asking questions, probing not carrying desires to believe, to the world and looking for ways of justifying them, but taking out curiosity to the world. and finding out what tells us about it itself. but of course someone say that those are catholic elite that we're prosecuting galileo catholic elite that we're sending their message out. nowadays, we will say the science funding, obviously. and you do broach the topic is the elites, it's being skewed towards elite again, is there that much of a change that we have? it's changing the way science is invested in. and of course, over time we've had, i know, class managers in this book as well, i should say, well, i think there's

a huge difference between the people who take leaving roles and scientific work and discovery. and people who occupy hierarchies and religious traditions. and the big difference is that in the science hierarchy, if there is such a thing, the idea of critical skepticism, the idea of challenging people's results of demanding, if they be replicated, complicates of different labs, for example, checking on the results of other labs of the great competition, there is to get the answer right and to get the fact settled that is very healthy aspect of the way that science develops. it dependents to this tremendous dialectic, if you like, of, of, of criticism, investigation of scrutiny of results. and that is something which is very difficult to do if you, in a tradition where you have

a central received truce and the virtue is to believe them accept them list by them . so a very, very different kind of mindset. i mean, i know everyone relies on quantum mechanics for their mobile phones and the positioning and einstein's theories. but i mean, is it really replication no one at school? if they get the experiment, did they come up with a different value for the percentage of oxygen or something? some experiment is going to go. we've got, we've disproved a huge amount and with the higgs both on it, sir. and isn't it? if they haven't found it, they would have just said, well, we'll keep looking for it. it's not that it doesn't exist. isn't there something on to logical about that? you know, i can tell you and interesting little anecdotes about the space on, in connection with what you just said. the rather good friend of mine is one of the lead scientists on the children colanda. he was on the compact me on some experiment. that's one of the 2 experiments of just looking for the haze itself.

and when they announced that they were satisfied, they spotted age. this is in 2012 after a number of years of going over and over and over the results and being absolutely sure that they really got it right. i said to him, it must have been a wonderful occasion. you must have felt so exhilarated and indeed the consequences of if they can invest in the work grade. she was knighted and you know, 100 tremendous metal and so forth. but he said to me, he said, oh yes, yes, yes, it was great on that day. but you know, wash, if we hadn't found it, it would have been so exciting because it would have meant that there's a whole lot of different physics out there that we need to look for. now dispatch attitude is we set to see that wonder that but that 1st, that hunger for finding out more for digging into difficult mysteries of nature and the universe or of the past for that matter or human nature. which is very distinctive of the very best enquiries, not just in natural science,

but i think he story in to look at and t t and try to make sense of how things work for people. then people look at the brain and how it functions. and in to human psychology, these are exhilarating, exhilarating inquiries. and you know, it's like opening christmas present the 2nd i'm putting a parcel because you don't know what's inside. but you do know that whatever is inside is going to be part of least of an answer to a question that you've got. and i should just say the range in this book in physics, archaeology neuroscience is it's all this summarizes summarizing the field actually before we return to the maybe the, the class elements and the what it means today. i'll just give you talk about ogre it in syria. i was, he normally series in the news because we have the british and united states backing against the assad government back in islam essence on. meanwhile, on the ground in syria, in recent years,

we've discovered amazing things about the history of civilization. just tell me a little bit about that. yes, you know, it's a very striking folks for me about my grandfather was an elderly father said, my father's barbara, my grandfather's, i go and i was born and my father was quite old. so i'm able to say that my grandfather was at school and the 181718 eighty's seem sort of her stomach thing. and he would have known nothing of what we now know about the past. because of all the discoveries made about syria and iraq, about the 1st question of mr. pertaining the great civilizations that flourished the invention of writing the origin to the teacher. and so many technological advances, all that was actually known until the 2nd half of the 19th century. and we had to rochester had the books of the hebrew bible, the old testament, as christians call, it was wrapped up in legend, homer but backers,

regardless of 70 legendary as well. so before about the 8th or 9th century, d. c, the past was if there was any sense of that at all was just really racked in the midst of knowing. but just on the origin of the middle east, from round about the midst of the 19th century has revealed to us quite literally, thousands of years of civilization all about it. in mister batavia also in reference civilization in this valley, the yellow river civilization of china learning much, much more about egypt and civilization, taking us back 4000 years before artists and the old testament. and that's pretty remarkable is that only got a ball rolling and the ball rolling was a discovery in the whole new period. so, you know, they knew stone age and be development in sacraments and settled agriculture. and then of course, the discovery of human ancestry taking us by tens of thousands of years,

hundreds of thousands, even indeed. now it says the discovery of generations, 6000000 years ago when the buried my earliest ancestors of human 9 die. but be of a chimp and jeez, a sparkling in the way in which time and the past has opened up so dramatically and so tremendously. just very by recently transforming our view of ourselves. well, i mean, we are really in a way, i personally, you can see by just saying fascinating concerning situation and feel that if people have sensory issues, they understood it. i think would make sense their place in the universe rather different p. i mean, i'm not sure what they wore plain pilots were thinking when they were bombing these areas. the reason of the it has to be said as something that more in the frontier of knowledge after this your break now we have e cigarettes,

i just heard that it was a healthy alternative to figure out how do we trust tobacco companies with their message that these new products are actually going to reduce are these are making the tobacco tours the welcome back. i'm still here with philosopher and public intellectual professor. ac grayling discussing his new work, the frontiers of knowledge. there will be some view is maybe in the american south right now watching this and not taking the vaccinations against corona virus and so on who be subjected to a different version of history finance by particular interests. would you do? do mentioned the book. what are the dangers of this as this amazing revolution and

thought has been uncovered and discovered and invented? you know, the human mind and human society is like geological, strauser geological structure. they have permission, very apt to take quick, easy answers and superstitious views of the world. down in the more primitive layers of about understanding and then increasingly psyche more questioning, slightly more open or skeptical and more rational i think. and the concept of rationality is very important here. because as i say in the book, if you look at the word rational, you see the 1st part of it is ratio, which means proportion. and so a rational belief is one which is proportional to the evidence you have for it, or the strength of the reasons that you then off before it. and so that tends to be rather upper level of that you are eligible,

stronger people. and society is in groups with in societies, find themselves to different levels of this geological laugh, which is why we have rockets figures in the moon now. and people used to read the astrological forecasts. hearing 2021. so can i so surprising in a way that there is this kind of mixture and it's a mixture because history is always on the move, the past is always dying and the new is always being born. if i remember correctly and factor what been i was, i'm thinking a bit about this interview today. i remember that you chose not to go to your dream of the decade novels. i think you read that you chose or not from graham. she, i seem to recall and we, she talks about how the old is died and the new is born and in that middle period called a new kind of interregnum. the complexity and difficulty this, you know, it's problematic. the presence is always problematic in that way,

cuz it really says this mixture of the old and the new. so it's chris might want because, you know, a traditional belief might use very, very modern means to carry out some act based on that traditional belief. and that's just the mixture that we're in at the moment. it can sometimes be a very dangerous mixture. i mean, we don't go through breakfast again and there were complex breakfast, tier argument and complex remain, or argument famously. but how is it that if, as you say, things become more and more spectral, in terms of our understanding of your questioning of the world and the universe has political, some elements of political theory appeared to get more certain certainly amongst maybe it's just the read your invocation of it, but certainly say rusher isn't bad, china's bad as was biden would say change and it's, it's a trump thing x. but why is this questioning in intellectual

circles accompanied more certainty? i arguably, amidst politicians there is a very, very direct relationship between increasing complexity and increasing simplicity or the propensity to reach for simple quick concepts and more complex things are. the more a lot of people are driven to look for something checkup, simple, black and white. this is, you know, an example of how much is that. just one dimension isn't like, you know, christian fundamentalism in the southern states in the us will funder mentalism anyway. can persist. it's because you can tell anybody the fundamental team, it's doctrines and plans of any of the major religions in less than half an hour. but it takes a bit longer than that to understand physics. and this is a really good example of how if our understanding of the world is increasingly

complex, there's a lot to know a lot to understand when people will reach for the simple answers to human beings like a clear story appear like beginning, middle and then, and lots of explanation, what that makes sense. they want to have something big long to. and the simple answer is the one that you you reach for when you stop feeling that you're getting in the complex functions in pollen sheets that happens as well. so, you know, if you think of a system like the one in the u. k, which like canada and united states of america and india or have the 1st case voting system. this is a terrible, terrible verging system because the car from being made and then the traffic is going to provide for minority based government. it also means that you can get to political conscious and new reservation. you get a, you know, 10 kind of position that views that results in slogans and in simplistic arguments, you don't get,

didn't get people trying to compromise or share or work together. but you get division b, c. i said it's most dramatic in the united states of america, but the divide between the republican party and the democratic party is based and so deep as to be frightening. and we have seen it at its way worse than the trunk. yes. that. so in the case of something like it's not going to be neutral about it and tell you that i think it's a disastrous idea, pretty politics, 7000 years in the case of branch. and then we see a phenomenon which is turns impact on the idea that but if people worried about all sorts of things in their lives, you can find one simple wouldn't be fugitive explanation for payment or need on the you said back sovereignty. and socrates problems out of the way you want, if you can do that. and if you can use these incredible new techniques of

communication, because i think social media, the internet, what's happened and google and facebook and so on have been very, very malign influences on politics. but great from the things by the way, the rates are the sort of democratic agra conversation people sharing news and views and putting people in touch with one another. yes. but they're also reading bad aspects of them because you, my crew target people with false messages that other people can see and call out. sure they direct him for the elections. i'll give you for that, but then it for a johnson or a donald trump, maybe in 2024. i mean maybe he rent, they read the book and they would come out with the alarming idea that they're on the right path. because this questioning of knowledge companies seeking for simplicity. so you'd be, they're going obviously, i don't agree with it, but johnson get more union. jack's get flags round. you have more simple messages. people are looking for answers and this is a good political,

maggie valley and strategy is matthew, which evidence has worked in recent years. yes. and i suppose you could trace route, but you're just telling wrong center wrote out more flags. i'd be telling everybody else to watch their backs when johnson's voucher more flags have because he trying to do them. so, you know, the place really is the message, but what we want to be, what we want to be doing. and this is a point that i wrote the book for parking and talking point is we should make ourselves literate across the field of endeavor and inquiry and in particular, so that we can make ourselves better at thinking clearly critically and evaluation . what people claim people change in there because we can make some connections we can see across the landscape of our understanding about doesn't mean that we want to become part of the system will work with become ancient historian. so anything

but will know each of us needs, of course, and especially that we need to know the skill in life definitely in our careers. we should also have this general literacy, and i think cation and all of the thrust about education systems. thank you. that's us down in the u. k. we stopped to specialize after gauges. teach be not can gcsu redo few as subjects of a level you might be once up that university. and this is not great. and the old model, the one which is kind of been chips away. asher located in the us is that you provider, general education. and then people specialize on the basis of that interests and talents afterwards. but if you, if you specialize too early people, new site of the context of the wider landscape of things into which what they do and that's, i think is in pounds. it's any part of a complicated story of this day. i know you're talking of talk to the past this

size culture debate of c p though is alive and well. it hasn't changed. i mean, i was talking about history. you, you talk about christopher hill, who's i'll give you a marginalized figure. the great marxist historian at oxford, i mean, i was told, there was a civil war here. he talked about the english revolution. is that an example of the kind of way history is skewed? it's a very good example of the difference between revisionism and a bad history like holocaust. and i was say and thinking about the past in much more exact and creative ways to try to make sense of it. looking at it in the future from the point of view, different frameworks. workers to be hill's dad. i think in a really significant is that he noticed that if you put the english

civil war, what happened was charles the 1st and parliament and the rest into this longer contracts from europe in history. you see, it is the 1st one of the great revolutions. so we think of the french revolution, american revolution, we think that they both should match the bolshevik revolution and the revolution. some folks as well right presents. and you see this as part very basic, different and instructive process. so he was able to push it into context, which makes us see it a fresh and interesting the fresh using this perspective that a marxist interpretation of history offers. that's very valuable. nice. thank you. in the book as a, as a way of showing how revisionism in history that ish revising our understanding of something is different from historical denial. and can be used to inform us much, much more sensitively about things. another example i use, of course,

is feel shalean session when the cyclist came with, you know, after captain cook, back at the end of 18th century, they regarded australian as what sometimes called a kara really is an empty land. you can just take the step of the, for the taking and it's only very recently that some historians and australia have said i on, you know, it had with many, many different kinds of people living image. and in fact, it was an invasion that wasn't a settlement, and it was of a violent one because there was a long drawn out war between the sectors and they, aborigines, which only by recently ended. now that is a way of revising our view of history, understanding things different be and trying to do something better now and in future on the basis of that better understand. and in this dichotomy between revisionism and denial, ism is boris johnson. on the denial list side, well, i don't know what johnson's views about history. i had a very,

very sinking feeling about his views of the present to say, well, he does, he does. but i think if i may be frank and rude at the same time about it, i think he's bigger, see which model himself on church and some. and so he's, he's a kind of, well the shallow official version of churchill. whereas i run a deeper view of church show who had many characteristics which we entered. my for example is covered in this during the 2nd war. but prior to it for decade after decade, he was regarded quite rightly bye. most of his contemporaries as an absolute, you know, boss, do it as somebody from say, because he was tell on reliable, politically switch sides and etc. so maybe bar something has some similarity to him in that respect. plaza greatly. thank you. thank you very much. that's over the

show will be like a wednesday for our last episode in the season. 44 years to the day of the detention of an engine re fighter against you gave back to south africa, the african socialist, the biko. after his arrest, he'll be beaten, tortured and eventually dine, comes to be a killing, emblematic of the horrors of the margaret thatcher armed about a system jewel and keep my social media and get in touch. you let us know. you think it is too late to save? humanity. ah. the unexpected upside of the pandemic kenya is

experiencing an elephant baby boom. 200. why does kenya have so many allison curves and how has the panoramic impacted people's lives? is andree role is a very big along in any fact he end up killing himself. ah, i don't believe on in the and then you go buy a car. well, and i will proceed make i was i didn't mean that disappear media. we're gonna move it. they get, they say lucky to me, mean the thing in it because of that of the, one of the been a thing that they didn't even notice whether the equals you go, there's no local but i know the company just wasn't go or whatever did it

oh, no, you know, board is the number, please emerge . we don't have authority. we don't actually the whole world needs to take action and be ready. not a joke. people judge, you know, we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in our own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is paid for the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are together

in the. c can use on the, at least 5 people reported living killed cobble with enough down this. them use them to their to um, verify a video of those online showing us soldiers using they call preventative fire reports to just the victims may have been killed in a stampede as people rushed to get out of the country. the celtic situation to the poor comes of the telephone is back in total control of afghan, a sense following the capture of the countries capital on sunday. the week of rapid territorial gained by the insurgents in time as it rushes to evacuate. every american citizen from the country, the u. s. was a brave face.