the robot must protect its own existence with the with the hello and welcome to cross off. we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle. russia china relations are strong and getting deeper. we are told this is dangerous for the washington lead world. is it? why are moscow in beijing moving closer together? did the miscalculations of the washington consensus? have anything to do with it? is the china russia alliance made it america? ah, ah,

cross talking russia china relations. i'm joined by my guess lynch and she yang in geneva. he is a professor of international history and politics at the graduate institute of international and development studies engineer. but in israel we have john gong. he is a professor at the university of international business in economics. and here in moscow were joined by alexander luke, and he is head of the department of international relations at the higher school of economics, or tell me in cross talk roles. and in fact, that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciated when she and jenny, but let me go to you 1st year. i've been observing it for many, many years, the growing relationship closer, relationship that russia and china had. and it was, you know, a few years ago it was murmurings people met and mentioned in western media. and now all of a sudden they're in panic mode is if this suddenly happened. well, this hasn't suddenly happened. it's been happening for a very long time time,

and this, russia gave hopes that the u. s. has gone through and much of the western world. they have just been oblivious to how the international stage is changing and the rapid mis of that change. and suddenly they wake up and say, oh my goodness, are you surprised by this? go ahead in geneva. oh, i'm not surprised at all. god has lot to do with the american mentality towards russia, in particular, since the end of the cold war, basically united states thought, well, unipolar world is coming there. you know, russia is defeated. our soviet union was defeated during the cold war. so the united states really did not take russia seriously, and the even, belittle russia's contribution to the decisive end of the cold war. so i think this is a mentality american registration, the past, quite many of them attend,

including obama himself. so in that sense, what obama is used to say, this is a 2nd rate country, we don't be taken to seriously. so what's interesting now is that at least i believe biden's administration began to take russia more seriously. so in that sense, in terms of psychology, terms of mentality, maybe there is midland out, let me ask it real quickly. are they taking russia more seriously because of the russia china relationship? it is growing because i think that's the case. part of it, part of it, part of it. for sure. yes for sure. or let me listen is let me go to john in israel here. i mean, we just heard from luncheon that you know, the, the american, so take russia very seriously, but they don't, they can't seem to stop talking about russia every single day. i mean, you,

it's like keystone cops and james bond. you can have them both at the same time. they are obsessed with russia, but they are beginning to really fear china. and because of their, their projection again smote both it's help bring the 2 countries together, which makes perfect logical sense to me, go ahead, john and israel. well, in the us, it was a battle most rival standby to some extent. so you know, this attitude towards the long time, but over time i think come to realize that somebody cannot be respected from a national perspective. china is very rapidly in terms of g. t. p, for example, trying today is about 70 percent of us. washer is very small and there's a famous saying from the x who says

that russia is basically, you guess they say in a masculine, is they should actually said, right. so i think this increasing concern was that the trailer poses a more competition not to at this point, but as a kind of just spark. so how many companies do you are if you choose china as far as and some of them are a warranty might do. so it says host countries coming on the market. national interest is trying to do i go to your motion and somebody was

paid to restore to some extent that i'm looking at was you saying? i think it's an alex center, this wedge issue. this keeps coming up here. i don't see any wedge whatsoever, because you have particularly from washington, an enormous amount of antipathy towards russia. we just recently had a summit which was kind of a stalemate in my opinion, over all which sometimes that's not a bad thing here. but, you know, when you, when you see the, the nato, nato meeting recently, the g 7. and it's all really about china, china, china, ok. and the americans are obsessed with russia, but the rest of, with russia and china at the same time, the europeans are a little bit more in between here. i don't see how they can divide russian china when they're both being the target of aggressive rhetoric at the very least from

the us. go ahead, alexander well, when the americans, i mean, american leads are stuck in about russia or china. they actually don't talk above them, the real russia, china, there's like 2 symbols in the internal po. so the main idea was for a long time after then what profess loan said union for period unity pull a moment was this is going to become an age of your new polarity. it will be there forever. so as o a d o just they and the american, the lease, i would say the rejected facts. the rejected for a long time. the fact that russia and china was coming together and was forming

a kind of defect to align senior regime, which wasn't used to be a nightmare to such jo jo, political thinkers like june sky or right you soon who, who are not so crow russian say so but after the collapse of the soviet union, this was the idea and the mainstream thinking was the rush and china were like, it does mess and they could not to come too close together because there is differences because china is a danger for russian. so, but now the more this changing, there are some people who talk in the united states about terrible identity in the russian, china that like values are coming closer together and, and this is a problem. so this is why, by the way, why by them chose to meet the russian president because there were several

articles including like show journals like for the fairs, this, which were saying that now this is a problem. russian chinese refresh money is a problem is in danger. for the united states, and we should do something about about it, perhaps some how do i and them and you know, by, by being but doing something for russia but, but there's always, americans don't want to give russia anything in return the only the only talking yes, you probably know the well yes. center i think it's more than just talking. san sanctions, sanctions and sanctions. that's not talk. but that's telling you it's telling the russians and sending them a signal here. me to go back to geneva here. you know, when they, they talk about, you know, be the problem, how problematic it is for russia and china to be allies. i don't see it at all

because russia and china reject this rules based order. nonsense. they look at international law because rules based order. it's all the rules are made in washington and basing. and moscow said that's not true. and we can say no. go ahead in geneva. well, yes, i do think that social looking is right on that. they are talking about imaginary china and the russia. so therefore, they imagine the russia and the china still somehow inferior and the to, to large. you see the western values on they called universal value, which is ironic because the i always is, i written the books criticising the concept of universal value. the original meaning of universal value means catholicism in the middle ages. i think even catholicism split into 2 in the end. right. so yes, but americans,

in particular, the, the, the policy towards attitudes was russia and china is driven primarily by a button gallery and thinking, which is so called the decline. the west thinking is a decline in is that it's a driving that kind of hysteria and the fantasy about china, russia now with china, i would add even something more that there was a racial side of it does the yellow peril. so you have spangler yellow peril. yeah, the china become far more dangerous than russia. in that sense, in the mentality. i could, i could also throw, i could throw in orientalism as well as we're going to get academic care. now, you know, i'm very know because for the last 500 years, the western world is, is big basically determined the terms of engagement around the globe and suddenly

that is coming to an end and they read a complete loss. and what, how could this possibly happen because they, their missionary messianic message is for all time, but it's not empire, it's rise and fall. that's but maybe they are of history here. right? gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break down to about short break. we'll continue our discussion of russia, china relation. stay with r t the the ah, ah,

me the and an expected upside of the pandemic kenya is experiencing an ellison baby boom. 200. why this kenya have so many cars and how has the panoramic impacted people's lives? there's a wall, it's a fairly big long in a bunk. any fact he end up killing himself. ah, i don't believe nearly and then you got one via well, and i will make it well before i get in the media group, they get mad and i can say like it when the mean thing in it because neither of the one

who did the they didn't even notice whether they call to do this, but i know they come when it just wasn't go or whatever. did it the welcome back to cross stock were all things are considered. i'm peter labelle. your mind you were discussing russia, china relations. ah, ah. okay. let's go back to john in israel, john, there's a lot of talk about a strategic alliance of including russia in china here. now it's my understanding here is that neither russia or china, constitutionally legally, domestically can be in a military alliances. but is that something that is turning into reality if it's,

if it's not formally announced? because i mean, it's interesting how nato is targeted. russia is a threat. and also there are, quote, unquote, concerned about china, which again is, draws russian chinese together speak to a strategic possibly military relationship is when is that? is it already happening? and what would it take for it to happen? go ahead, john to come to age in a strategic relationship. i think the official phrase for comprehension, ship ship and china has a couple things. so i'm going to have the strong relationship. i think both china you know, to see the trade as a strategic align suggested. because the other day, i think both countries ration was actually much larger to

capital trains of dollars. and what i was trying to $400.00 christmas it sounded, stays even more recently. you can union, so i think at the end of the day both extremely has to be capitalized against wes this is something i'm just trying to avoid. so when he graduated in the country club, which doesn't was the 1st place. so i don't know why it's no, absolutely not. well, i mean, wait, what's interesting here,

let me turn to alexander here in moscow is that, you know, be under the bio min administration. it's the democratic world against the talk receives in tyranny and all about which again, you know, it's focusing on on, on china and russia, though i wouldn't use that to the cock receive. i think it's actually cartoonish the witt. what's coming out of a lincoln state department here. but alexander went, ask you a question, a comes up all of the time. is that and any kind of strong relationship, bilateral relationship? the, there's the claim and it's done a despairingly obviously, is it, russia will be the junior member of the, of that relationship. how do you address it? i don't think it's ma, it means anything. and i think it's actually quite meaning lists, but that is something that it's always thrown out there. russia will be the junior partner. how do you react to that? russia? well, it depends on what, what's your initial of june the apartment and if it's good or bad, for example,

in nature or in european union, we have big countries and small countries like, i don't know, france is much larger than belgium, but they are members of the same alliance, and i don't think they see each other's a threat. so at the moment, i would say there are no any formal or official dis bones between the russian and chinese interests. for example, sean chi corporation organization, the russia and china, they contributed to the budget, the same amount of money, while other countries pay less. and it is very strictly observed in any tree committed to russia and china. the equality principal. also, if we're talking about the some countries dependent on another,

it basically means that the other one makes that country do something that it doesn't like this does not exist in the russian chinese partnership. but saying this, we can say also this chinese a much larger country in terms of population. the economy is about 10 times larger than the russia. and then this tendency continues. well, it wouldn't be necessarily come for the military relationship, but china may well gradually have more influence in the world than russian. i think that russia should think about this. yeah, let's go back to geneva. but one of the things that i find interesting, at least at the moment here, is that neither russia or china have any aspirations to export any kind of economic or political or ideological model. i mean, that's another thing that kind of brings them together because the, you know, the,

you with the washington consensus is basically neo nipple, meal, liberal ideology. and if you don't believe in that, i ology are either inferior or you're a threat, or you're both in russia and china, have to their advantage of not seeing the world through an ideological once again, i will state this, they mean they may be the most common denominator here, rely upon international law, not an ideological prism to decide how the world should be arranged. go ahead in geneva. yes, but the united states in particular, and less so in europe today. still see the world in the black and white. i call to me, which of course is very much christian view of the world. so it's difficult, you know, to dispel that kind of way of thinking. so it's, i think that russians, china emphasize on whatever it applies to your countries on the model,

whatever regime the system domestic system, it should fit to be your own culture and the history ok. russia does not necessarily have the same system and then china, but to china, also has to learn, you know, the, the good part of the, of the other people's system. so this is the, you know, different mentality. united states who causes in my views last defender of the european enlightenment, also doxey. well, i go so badly. oh, yeah, i quit the i think i think it can be. it's a bit ironic here because you have your, you have this very bit bizarre trends coming out of the united states. a called woke. is them in post modernism. i mean, it's right now you're right. i agree with you. i think it's a very good observation. but there will be others, like myself that were saying,

is that the united states is leading the destruction of western culture and civilization, which in a very, very competitive international environment probably shouldn't be a good thing to do. i'm what i'm obviously making a reference to the anchorage summit that was a trade rec for the us. when they had the, the chinese representative was repeating talking points from the democrats. very clever or very clever gambit. i must say. ok, but it does come home here, john, let me go to you. i mean, where is this relationship going? because one thing again, i want to talk. everyone likes to talk about the differences between russia and china. of course, there are different countries, different cultures, etc. but they have a lot in common, and they're, they, what's common is the lack of trust in the west, particularly the russians don't have much confidence in the west. nature won't expand, we promise you, we don't need to write it all down and then look what happened. ok, then for spree, gene change in ukraine,

colored revolutions on its borders here. and you need the expect, the russian who keep leaving the state department, they don't anymore. and i think china as a keen observer, watching what's happened in the 20th century in the middle east, you know, is this a partner you want to deal with? this is going to be honest with you, i don't think so. ok, i mean, just being an observer of international affairs, it's better to trust your neighbor. that doesn't lie to you all of the time. then to a believe in the in treaties of capitalists from washington. go ahead, john. i think most countries are re, she's, she's very carefully at the same time, not to be sliding to military alliance scenario. but i think this movement very much depends on washington. this is the direction there were more possible action or you don't think it might not

be interesting overall, you know, i feel about this database system. i want to make a comment on the someone that's interested in promoting the model. we don't want to messages some b o y c or a different i think to be what is the problem? why now says that it's believing paul. so i'm just showing the handling of the shines in the background was a total of many aspects and, and also against the backdrop of washington being preaching that it's all liberal gospel. do many developing countries and it fell. so i think they're mostly afraid

of that. and 2nd, i think what is also going to, you know, just to try this message that we are actually not interested promoting model. they just do this as a sort of a tool, something that we can use to basically almost regarding the g 7 regarding everything you want to do, you can come up and say, try them mostly tell me that you will continue to emphasize is to let me give alexander the last 30 seconds here. i agree with john. the world isn't just the g 7 the world. this isn't nato, the world just isn't the you. the world is changing and i think china and russia understand that far better than people in washington. last 32nd. see you alex and or go ahead. well,

is quite an interesting situation when the united states wants to tear away russia from china. and this was one of the reason that by them decided to finally to russia. i think it's not very possible to do that would be one this especially taking into consideration that they don't give russia anything for that, but at least understood that you should speak. i hope both to russia and china, that the world over very read, the co conflict is not in the interest of any but all right, that's fine. i agree, and i think the buying people are a day late in the buck short my want to thank my guest in geneva, israel, and here in moscow, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our to see you next time. and remember, cross talk roles the

ah, the next financial survival guide, stacy blip, learn about say aloud. let's say i'm, it's joy and your great grief based of the site. 9 wall street prod, thank you for helping with the choice that way. all those driven by remember shaped by those with the in me dares

think me, we dare to ask me. ah, all good christmas. and mr. moseley, when you said that i could use the budget code to google, i would like to do i see. yup. and going to show you where you did numbers to, but if you didn't, if the now the more that's what you will cover financing and your 1st bill, i don't know if they use them in yet. we still follow some

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