oh, when all, oh, just don't the i mean you wrote yes to fill out the thing because after an engagement equal betrayal, when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground the the hello and welcome to cross off were all things are considered, i'm peter lavelle, russia china relations are strong and getting deeper. we are told this is dangerous for the washington lead world. is it? why are moscow in beijing moving closer together? did the miscalculations of the washington consensus? have anything to do with it?

is the china russia alliance made it america? ah, the cross talking russia china relations. i'm joined by my guess lynch and she yang in geneva. he is a professor of international history and politics at the graduate institute of international and development studies engineer. but in israel we have john gong, he is a professor at the university of international business and economics. and here in moscow were showing by alexander lucas. he is head of the department of international relations at the higher school of economics or gentleman cross talk rules and effects. that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciated when she and jenny, but let me go to you 1st year. i've been observing for many, many years, the growing relationship closer, relationship that russia and china had. and it was, you know, a few years ago it was murmurings people mitten mentioned in western media. and now

all of a sudden they're in panic mode is if this suddenly happened. well, this hasn't suddenly happened. it's been happening for a very long time. and a, the, this, russia gave the hope that the u. s. has gone through and much of the western world . they have just been oblivious to how the international stage is changing and the rapid miss of that change. and suddenly they wake up and say, oh my goodness, are you surprised by this? go ahead in geneva. oh, i'm not surprised at all. god has lot to do with the american mentality towards russia in particular, since the end of the cold war, basically united states thought, well, unipolar world is coming there, you know, russia is defeated. also, the unit was defeated during the cold war, so the united states really did not take russia seriously. and the, even,

belittle rushes contribution to the decisive end of the cold war. so i think this is a mentality american restoration the past. quite many of them attend, including obama himself. so in that sense, obama is used to say, this is a 2nd rate country. we don't take him to seriously. so what's interesting now is that at least i believe biden as straight as in terms of psychology, terms of mentality. maybe there is land, she may ask you real quickly, are they taking russia more seriously because of the russia china relationship that is growing? because i think that's the case part of it for a part of it, part of it. for sure. yes. for sure. or let me listen is let me go to that john and israel here. i mean, we just heard from luncheon that you know, the, the american, so take russia very seriously, but they don't,

they can't seem to stop talking about russia every single day. i mean, it's like keystone cops and james bond. you can have them both at the same time. they are obsessed with russia, but they are beginning to really fear china. and because of their, their projection again smote both it's help bring the 2 countries together, which makes perfect logical sense to me, go ahead, john and israel. well, in the us it was a most rival standby to some extent. so you know, this attitude was awful long time, but over time i think come to realize that somebody cannot be perspective from a national power perspective. china is rapidly in terms of g. t. p for trying today is about 70 percent of us. washer is very small. and

there's a famous saying from x, someone just said to us and who system russia was basically, you guess they say in a masculine, is they should say, right? so i think there's increasing concern was that the trailer poses a more competition to at this point. but kind of just spark. so the company coming from do you think the china as far as what shipped and some of them i want to do my due. so says host countries coming marcos, national interest is trying to do i go,

which is something to restore to some extent that i'm looking at maybe reducing which i think it's so much alex, enter this wedge issue. this keeps coming up here. i don't see any wedge whatsoever, because you have particularly from washington, an enormous amount of antipathy towards russia. we just recently had a summit which was kind of a stalemate in my opinion, over all which sometimes that's not a bad thing here. but, you know, when you, when you see the, the nato, nato meeting recently, the g 7, it's all really about china, china, china, ok. and the americans are obsessed with russia, but the rest of, with russia and china at the same time, the europeans are

a little bit more in between here. i don't see how they can divide russian china when they're both being the target of aggressive rhetoric at the very least from the us. go ahead, alexander well, when americans, i mean, the american elite is stuck in about russia or china. they actually don't talk above them, the real russia, china, there's a like run through symbols in the internal pool. so the main idea was for a long time after then what profess loan said union for period unity paula moment was, this is going to become an age of your new polarity. it will be there forever. so as o a d o and just they and the american, the leads i would say the rejected fact rejected for

a long time. the fact that russia and china was coming together and was forming a kind of defect to alliance in eurasia, which wasn't used to be a nightmare to such jo jo, political thinkers like june, sky or right you soon who, who are not so crow russian. i must say so, but after the collapse of the soviet union, this was the idea and the mainstream of thinking was that russia and china were like, it does mess and they could not to come too close together because there is differences because china is a danger for russian, so, but now the mood is changing. there are some people who, who talk in the united states about parallel identity in the russian, china that like values are coming closer together in the end. and then this is a problem. so this is why, by the way,

why by them chose to meet the russian president because there were several articles including like show journals like for the fairs, this, which were saying that now this is a problem, russian chinese refresh money. the problem is, and then you for the united states, and we should do something about about it, perhaps some how do i and them. and you know, by, by being doing something for russia but, but as well as americans don't want to give russia anything in return there. they're only talking. yes. you probably know the 12, yes. wow. like center. i think it's more than just talking. san sanctions, sanctions and sanctions. that's not talk that. but telling you it's telling the russians and sending them a signal here me to go back to geneva here. you know,

when they, they talk about, you know, be the problem. how problematic it is for russia and china to be allies. i don't see it at all because russia and china reject this rules based order. nonsense. they look at international law because rules based order. it's all the rules are made in washington and beijing and moscow say that's not true. and we can say no. go ahead in geneva. well, yes, i do think that social looking is right on that. they are talking about imaginary china and russia, so therefore they imagine the russia and china a still a somehow inferior under the 2 to losh, you see all the way western values on they called the universal value, which is ironic because the, i always just written the books criticising the concept of universal value. the original meaning universal value means catholicism in the middle ages. i think even

catholicism split into 2 in the end. right? so yes, but americans, in particular, the, the, the policy towards attitudes was russia and china is driven primarily by a button gallery and thinking which is so called the decline to west thinking. it's a decline in is that is driving that kind of hysteria. and the fantasy about china, russia now with china, i would add even something more that there was a racial side of it does the yellow peril. so you have spangler yellow peril. we have the china become far more dangerous than russia. in that sense, in the mentality, i could, i could also throw, i could throw in orientalism as well as we're going to get academic. you know, i know i'm very now because for the last 500 years,

the western world is as big basically determined the terms of engagement around the globe. and suddenly that is coming to an end and they read a complete loss. and what, how could this possibly happen because they, their missionary messianic message is for all time, but it's not empire, it's rise and fall. that's but the, the arc of history here are gentlemen, i'm going to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break out about your break. we'll continue our discussion of russia, china relation, stay with our team. the ah, follow up on something we've been talking about for awhile and that is the lack of leadership, but never ending money. printing the

welcome across stock. were all things considered? i'm peter labelle. your mind you were discussing russia. china relations. ah, ah. okay. let's go back to john in israel. john, there's a lot of talk about a strategic alliance of including russia in china here. now it's my understanding here is that neither russia or china, constitutionally legally speaking, domestically, can be in a military alliances. but is that something that is turning into reality if it's, if it's not formally announced that because, i mean, it's interesting how nato is targeted. russia is a threat and also their quote unquote concerned about china, which again is,

draws russian chinese together speak to strategic possibly military relationship is when is that? is it already happening and what would it take for it to happen? go ahead, john courses to come to a strategic relationship alive. relationship i think the official phrase for sure relationship and trauma has a couple of countries. so going to have the strong relationship. i think most china cautious about, you know, to see the trade as a strategic align suggested. because at the end of the day, i think both countries, accommodations were actually much larger than 2 countries. each other for capital trains almost was trying to $400.00 business

days. even more recently you can union. so i think it would be extremely has to be capitalized. yes wes, this is something i'm just trying to avoid. so what are the graduating portion of countries into this which doesn't want in the 1st place? so i don't know why it's, it's a metric? no, absolutely not. well, i mean, wait, what's interesting here, let me turn alexander here in moscow is that, you know, be under the bible administration. it's the democratic world against the top cruces, and tyranny and all of that, which again, you know, it's focusing on, on,

on china and russia. though i witten use that the cock receive, i think it to actually cartoonish the witt. what's coming out of a lincoln state department here. but alexander, i want to ask you a question. a comes up all of the time. is that, and any kind of a strong relationship, bilateral relationship, the, there is the claim and it's done despairingly obviously, is it, russia will be the junior member of the, of that relationship. how do you address it? i don't think it's not. it means anything. and i think it's actually quite meaning list, but that is something that it's always thrown out there. russia will be the junior partner, hardy react to that. russia? well, it depends on what, what's your definition of june the apartment and if it's good or bad, for example, in nature or in european union, we have big countries on smaller countries. like, i don't know, france is much larger than belgium,

but they are members of the same alliance and i don't think they see each other's a threat. so at the moment, i would say there are no any formal or official dis, bones between the russian and chinese interests. for example, shanghai corporation, organization, the russian china, they contributed to the budget, the same amount of money, while other countries pay less. and it is very strictly observed in any tree committed to russia and china. the equality principle. also, if we are talking about the some countries dependent on another in basically means that the other one makes that country do something that doesn't like this does not

exist in the russian chinese partnership. but saying this, we can say also this chinese a much larger country in terms of population. the economy is about 10 times larger than the russia. and then this tendency continues. well, it wouldn't be necessarily come for the military relationship, but china may well gradually have more influence in the world than russian. i think that russia should think about this. yeah, let's go back to geneva. but one of the things that i find interesting, at least at the moment here, is that neither russia or china have any aspirations to export any kind of economic or political or ideological model. i mean that, that's another thing that kind of brings them together because the, you know, the, you, the washington consensus is basically me or nipple, a meal liberal ideology. and if you don't believe in that id, ology are either inferior or you're a threat,

or you're both. and russia and china have to their advantage of not seeing the world through an ideological lens. again, i will state this, they mean they be the most common denominator here, rely upon international law, not an ideological prism to decide how the world should be arranged. go ahead in geneva. yes, but the united states in particular and less so in europe today, still see the world in the black and white i call to me, which of course is very much christian view of the world. so it's difficult, you know, to dispel. that's kind of a way of thinking. so it's, i think that russians, china emphasize on whatever it applies to your countries on the model or whatever regime the system domestic system. it should fit to be your

own culture and the history. ok. russia, this not necessarily have the same system and then china want to, china also has to learn, you know, the, the good part of the off the other people system. so this is the, you know, different mentality. united states of courses in my view is the last defender of the european enlightenment. also doxey. well, i go so badly. oh, yeah. i the, i think i think it can be, it's a bit ironic here because you have your, you have this very bizarre trends coming out of the united states. a called woke ism, in post modernism. i mean, it's right now you're right. i agree with you. i think it's a very good observation, but there will be others like myself that would saying is that the united states is leading the destruction of western culture and civilization, which in a very, very competitive international environment probably shouldn't be

a good thing to do. i'm what i'm making a reference to the anchorage summit that was a trade rec for the us. when they had the, the chinese representative was repeating talking points from the democrats. very clever or very clever gambit. i must say. ok, but it does come home here. john, let me go to you. i mean, where is this relationship going? because one thing again, i want to talk. everyone likes to talk about the differences between russia and china. of course, they're different countries, different cultures, etc. but they have a lot in common, and they're, they can common is the lack of trust in the west, particularly the russians don't have much confidence in the west. nature won't expand, we promise you, we don't need to write it all down and then look what happened. ok, then for spree, gene change in ukraine, color revolutions on its borders here. and you and you expect the russian who keep leaving the state department, they don't anymore. and i think china as a keen observer,

watching what's happened in the 20th century in the middle east. you know, is this a partner you want to deal with this? going to be honest with you, i don't think so. ok, i mean just being an observer of international affairs, it's better to trust your neighbor. that doesn't lie to you all of the time. then to a believe in the in treaties of capitalists from washington. go ahead, john. i think most countries are going to the situation. she's very catholic at the same time, not to be sliding to military alliance scenario. but i think this very much depends on washington as well. if the wasn't the pushes direction, there were more directions or you think it might not be interesting overall, you know this database system. i want to make

a comment on someone that's interested in promoting the model. we don't want to show messages and b o y suits of our different people to be just what is the problem? bye nancy. it's believing paul. so just showing the diamond handling the next shines in the background was a total failure many aspects and also against the backdrop of washington being preaching that it's all liberal gospel, do many of the country and it fell. so i think the mostly afraid of that. and 2nd, i think what is also going to, you know,

just to try this message that we are actually not interested promote models. they just do this as a sort of a tool. something that we can use to basically almost always regarding the g 7 regarding everything you want to do, it can come up and say, give it a try. so mostly tell me about this package that you will continue to emphasize is let me give alexander the last 30 seconds here. it's. i agree with john. the world isn't just a g 7. the world. this isn't nato, the world just isn't the you. the world is changing, and i think china and russia understand that far better than people in washington last 32nd. see you alex, and go ahead. well, is quite an interesting situation when the united states wants to tear away

russia from china. and this was one of the reason that by then decided to talk finally to russia. i think it's not very possible to do that. would be one this especially taking into consideration that they don't give, give russia anything for that, but at least understood that you should speak. i hope both to russian, china that the world over very read, the co conflict is not in the interest of any but all right. that's going to i agree and i think the buying people are a day late in the buck short my want to thank my guest in geneva, israel, and here in moscow, i want to thank our viewers for watching us here at our to see you next time and remember, cross talk roles ah ah,

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