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welcome to sophie visionaries. me sophie shevardnadze. irish total sad. that time is the most unknown. all unknown things to talk about its mystery. i'm joined by professor got a lot of valley theoretical physicist and best selling author, professor calloway lee theoretical physicist and best selling author. it's great to have you with us today. welcome to our show. thank you very much for having it. all right, so let's start with something blunt. you said there is no time in an objective sense of the term. correct me if i'm wrong and that time exists only in the beholder and depends on what is that i is where the beholder ease and what they're looking at. but we do feel and experience the passing of time,

or they sense of something being after something. and here i am like, i don't know, grabbing a phone for instance, right. and putting down it was in my hand now. it isn't, isn't that time? yes, that is time. the end of course that he's time these time for us. we wake up in the morning, we go to sleep, time passes, we become older. that's real. what. when, when you say there is no time, what i mean is that there is no time in nature by itself in the fundamental level. let me make an example. if i see the sun, the does not mover. it still does not move. it does not mean that there is no sunset anymore. we still see the sun going up and going down and going up and going down. but we understand that it's not really the sandwiches moving. it's

a complicated story between us and the sun. we are sitting on on a big rock which is spinning. so from our perspective, we see this on moving. the movement of the sun that we see is real, but is not power just of the sun alone. and the same is about time time. it's a more complicated story that what we usually think, that's what physics has shown that time is different than what we usually think. so the time of our everyday life is not really nature nature. the time of it was more complicated than and we give you an example. suppose you of o'clock her or watch and gives time, and we will know that the, the property of blocks you, that they measure time. so this is the same time for all of them, if, if i look at them and they have the same time and i look again, they have the same in time. well, actually, if you measure precisely, that's not true. if we take 2 good cox, not these one,

this is my grandfather watch is not particularly good. good. well, we make one a little bit higher and wait a little bit. and then come back and we look at them. they're not, they don't indicate the same time because there's more time up here, the time down there. and these can be measured today in, in, in a laboratory. so time is different than what we think the time of our usually imagination is false, is an approximation is like the setting of the sun, right? but we're actually going to come back to this experiment a bit later. but before we get deep into the more scientific aspect of what your notion of time is, i just want to, you know, get it right for us playing humans. because for me, the biggest proves that time exists will at least the way we feel it is us and our bodies aging, and us eventually dying. i mean, we're part of the nature, right?

we're part of the bigger picture as well. i believe that like i'm part of something huge and that huge is part of something that is me. so would you deny that time in that sense exists also for me even though that i'm part of that huge nature thing that you were talking about. but tommy, i don't, i don't mean to say i don't, and i don't, i think you said it very correctly time it seems for us we age is more than that. we remember the pastor. right. and we think about the future and we know we're mortal. so we have all this for, you know, ahead about our life that the past, the present, the future. this is all real, but regard us, that's not the way a star leaves. the star does not remember the passive does not expect about the future. so we are part of nature and weak stealing things,

which depend on our own natural properties and not universal. we make another example that's the direction, right, and that's a down direction. is that false? no, of course is it's true. i mean, that's up and that's now and think fault or we're down. but i'm in canada, you're in georgia. when i point up, if you point up, you're pointing a different direction. so which one is a to up, you know, look the same, but in reality we're pointing in different directions because yours, his round of course. so we point in different direction. so which one is to up with to up is up for me and an up for you. and if we, if your brother was floating on, asked on our side the set up for him doesn't mean anything because for he more directions are the same. there's no up, so there's no up in the universe. the unit doesn't have an up direction and a down direction. but these are not for me,

which is one direction is enough for you in another direction. in the same time, there's no global time in the unit. the unit doesn't have a time, but we creatures the already environment and if he then there is a long story around. so we experience a local thing, which is our own time. and if you look very, very carefully, we see the differences, even from a time a different altitude. can i ask you something? so why does time is this doesn't exist at the microscopic state of things, right? have a direction, i mean, why is it never pointed backwards? and oh, this is a great question. it's a, it came as a surprise in, in the development of physics slowly that time is different than that than our usual way you're thinking. so this is i said

the time goes to a different speed and it was understood about 100 years ago. that ice thing is, the 1st one did that. and he 1st got to this idea directly to try to match various things we know about nature. but now we measure in the laboratory, so it's not an idea by august. i mean something we've something to that we can measure. but even before that break surprise was that the lows of physics do not distinguish the past for the future. and that's so strange because for us, the past is completely different for the future right bus to fix it, we're going to change it. i was born some date, i cannot change it. there was a russian revolution in the beginning of last century, and that's it. the future seems open so they think completely different stories, but physics does not distinguish the past from the shooter. so there was a lot of discussion what this means. and it turned out that

the difference between the past and the future only come comes about when we don't look at all the details. that's what we do all the time because we don't see the individual atom moving. then the, the big story all thinks move in in one direction, and this is what this is. this is called the, the growth of entropy. this is a name before, for this difference between the past and future that we use in physics. that is hard to conceive that because we think in terms of past and future. but once again, it's because we are very big things compared to, to the athens of the molecules. do you see the new nolan feel? when would you? is it possible, theoretically, whatever is going on in their normal to police idea of answer be yes, let it. and he took a, b i, which is the basis of an idea, correct?

which in principle, it could be possible to move toward the possible toward the future by, by playing with him to be by changing the arrangement of the molecule. so in principle is true. but then of course, he made a movie which is absurd, the because we cannot arrange the molecules in the way. so it's a bit of so the hollywood stuff, just a lot of fun to see in the movie and i found it a little bit confusing and complicated that the beauty of the problem of what, what fascinates, also all of us about time is that these all this complexity, these are some to mask to find which is in the mechanical things in determining nomics. so think any, when you have many, many outcomes moving in in our brain. and even in i was like college i would say because you, you started and i think that was really good. you said we, we, time for us is of a growing old them. and you know,

time for us is also what takes away everything we have right. we know that we're going to lose everything we really are today. we're gonna die. all the people we love will not be going to be there. we're going to be there. so those are sort of on site the end of the same time. time is also what brings us thing. so we have a very emotional connection of the way we are we, why are doing our, you know, a brain is that we are attached to, to go graph something in, in, in the future and the fear of losing something in the past. and i think when you said kind them, that would be mean to large extent. so this is i'm of his science. but i think this is make a mistake mix i mistake. if you say think that ok, i don't want to think about psychology. just look at the motion of things and then you don't see any more. what time is for us time for us is a lot. this emotional aspect of time professor, we're going to take a short break right now when we're back. we'll continue talking to professor, got

a little rally theoretical physicist, best selling author we're talking about does time exist, stay with us. all the follow up on something we've been talking about for awhile and that is the lack of leadership, but never ending money printing. now we have cigarettes, i just heard that it was a healthy alternative to figure out how do we trust tobacco companies with their

message that these new products are actually going to reduce these cigarettes or making the tobacco tours. ah, the and we're back talking about the notion of time. is it an illusion or does it truly exist? talking with professor cavaloni valley as theoretical physicist and best selling author professor. each time also is mostly a human perspective because emotion is a very humanly thing. grade, or even a delusion in some sense. how come physicists like yourself? use it to find out what exactly happened during the big bang. i don't know. it always fascinated me when i read about how these are that appeared on the 2nd or

3rd nanosecond after the big bang and is all that also a delusion? well, it also 5 in a me, it's a big part of my job to try to figure out what happened near the big bank. and that's part of my daily daily work to, to sort of contribute to this study of what happens when we study the big bang tried with long ago. what does it mean? i mean, we say the big bang was what? 1314000000000 years ago. well, it means that if we take all the clocks and we go back in time, they're different. but on average, if you go back for the loony as to that to be bank. and then we get confused precisely because of the big banga. it was so hot, so compressed the, when the quantum situation is very different physics than the one we use to the

deep in a quantum gravity, the gene that even the since this notion of time is so good anymore, we have to change it a little bit me, we're not, we don't, we haven't figured out exactly what happened as a big man. perhaps there was no time at all. there you just started tight and so he's trying to equations that tell us what happens and compare with observations of the sky and come up with a good story. and one of the difficulty is precisely what you said, that the usual notion of time, even the physical one, the one in the actual equation in the newton equation, the $11.00 studies at school. when one study physics, you know, a pendulum moves in time, even that notion of time is not good anymore at the big bang. so that's for me, the beauty of physics. it forces us to rethink our basic notions. sometimes you compute the clear way we have understood, right? it's a copernicus tell us, we're not still we're moving and so on,

so forth. sometimes like today we're, we're the border of what we know and even the notion that we use are not clear. so not everything is clear about time. what exactly happened with the time of the big bang it's, this is a topic of discussion. but can i ask you something because who sat previously? yeah. that you know that the time never goes backwards. it's always goes forward, right? so times an error which is moving forward, do we remain static in reality because there is no time really or, or are we moving along with it? no, i don't think we will remain static. and i, it's not that easy when, when i say a refuse to say on time the whole time, people try to imagine, all right, so the universe is just a block is down there and nothing happens. but that's a wrong imagination. because if nothing happens,

what you're really thinking is that there is a rock there in pine, passes in the rock doesn't change. so nothing happens. it's a way of thinking kind passes, but nothing changes. and the correct imagine issue is the opposite. universe has change, unit is happening, a lot of things happening in the universe is just imagine a, just a many, many happenings, but they're not all do it in a common time, this sort of disorder. it them, it's our, our way of organizing then a lot to memory in 20 anticipation that we read the, the full of happening of the universe as a single sequence of things happening. that's a mistake, but there is no there is no unique when i say this some doesn't move. right. so we look at school, i mean to the motion that we see the sun going up and down up and down every day.

and then we're kids. we go to school and the teacher or father mother, tell us, you know, it's an illusion. the son doesn't move. does that mean that the, some in the sky ball blocks and he's not going to move any sound, keep going around is, this is not the sun has got more is just more complicated story. i want to also use the example of music. if i'm a right, it's a thing that doesn't really exist, but only does because it is happening in time, right? like instruments play together and rhythm or a pulse that brings time alive. and we only feel something when music changes in time. and on changing node becomes a drone and stops having meaning, like, you know, my refrigerator making a noise. so if an elementary physics level time doesn't matter or doesn't exist, why does it matter on a non elementary lever, on the, on a level of music, for instance, does music essentially create time?

this is a great question and in fact, you know, in the she still, you're thinking about time music play, played a huge role. suppose you hearing music or okay, it's song. and in some moment, right now you're hearing one note not to fool folk. and then in the next moment, you're hearing one note. so you may be hearing the song. you only hear one note at the time in every moment you hear one note. so why do you react to the, to the song. ok, there is made song up there in the, in nature, at every moment there's only one note at the time. i mean, it was before harmony. most of music was just melodic. ok. so what is the answer? the answer it's, if you think for a moment is obvious. when you hear a note, your brain still remembers the previous notes, right?

so what you're hearing and you think of the melody, just think of your preferred melody in a moment that you, you hear a sound, but at the same time you remember the previous one them. so if you think of the time, the minute itself is really a memory stuff, you know, you know, there isn't your memory that stay together out there. there's one note at the time . and this shows that a lot of our our feeling and perception of temporality is connected to the fact that we remember. and it's in a sense if you want it, let me put it in some way. a stoner cannot hear music because he doesn't have memory to heal. to hear music, you need a memory and memory requires a brain or a computer that has memory not, not the brain because we are spiritual, thinks different from, from the rest of nature. i think that we are just pieces of nature, like everything else, but we have reached the corner pieces of nature with

a lot of wiring and mural and stuffer. and is this big clarity that allows music to exist in a very precise since music, it can only exist because we have this many brain which remembers and he's all not only that because when you hear music, i think everybody knows those music. you hear a piece of melody and your brain anticipate what's, what come next. and music is all a game that the music is coming in. park, it comes to what you expect. ok. the next lot you know what it is. so you're happy that you get it any part of 2 prizes you because you come something is all this game of surprising and satisfaction, which, which makes music. so music, it's great. in some sense, this doesn't mean that there aren't found ways moving around. that's all true, that's a real but what we call music and it's what you me with all that brain. so

interesting. so thank you. on your, the, the, the experiment you just showed me with your watches. right? yes. i mean, the whole thing, religious blows my mind because, i mean, i see time as something universal, right? like a minute is the same here in georgia, as it is. i don't know somewhere new delhi, 9 hours on the plane to new york would be the same 9 hours here, a nurse. if there is difference in the speed of time, why don't we feel it? i mean, how far above do i have to climb to feel the difference and will my subjective perception? you talk about memory, but i feel like perception is also a big thing that actually distinguishes time. will my subjective perception of time even allow me to feel it even if i'm high enough? yes. so let me have both questions 1st 1st to the 2nd one and then what would your

subject is perception match that? yes, absolutely. there is a, there are some movies, interstellar reasons in which the hero has a goose near as heavy things and so time slows down a lot for him. so when he comes back for him, a few days, a pastor and when he comes back, ears as pastor. and in fact, at the end of the movie, he comes back to earth and finds his little daughter who was become an old lady. so the main character is still a man in his middle age and his little daughter now has become an old lady. so the subjective perception of time has been completed before for the 2. so absolutely, we are certain of that, this is funny physics implement that. now you as well, wait a moment, why don't we proceed that? i mean, as you say, a minute for use a minute for me in a minute try. well,

the reason is because as long as we stay on earth, so georgia, canada daily or we go to the mountain know, 8 or if the highest, these differences a very small, extremely small. any fact in my, when i teach physics i gave to my students, sometimes the exercise will compute. what is the difference of time your brother go up to live in the mounting, the highest village you can imagine. and then it comes down after the 50th and what the difference of time is. so they, they compute and the difference is just a fraction of a 2nd. so too small for our to get it. but if you have instrument, you can measure it and we don't measure it. and the spectacular thing is even today, we can measure it, not just a mountain, but even 20 centimeters higher. 20 sentiments a slower we can see that this clock goes faster. this clock or fluid, and when,

you know the gps, the losing we using that would drive the car, the locators, it was through some satellite. and when the satellites were put up there at the beginning was americans in the seventy's and then it was done, you know, by the rush of the chinese, the indians. now we have, are they many systems like that when americans put the 1st satellites up there? this is just tools engineering careful because up there kinds go faster. and this is a clock in the, in the satellite. because essentially what happens is, you know, subtle. i was o'clock and the beams down the time and then your little machine uses that to locate yourself. and the phoenix is still very careful because time there goes, goes faster, they adopted the system, but that wasn't the hand of the military in some general in the american military said, oh, come on, this is silly time, go faster. i don't believe that. so the beginning, the, the 1st satellites,

experimental one will put that they had to then switch. they could keep this into account or not. and it did doesn't work if you don't keep this into account. so technological you today, your, when you drive the car and you have the gps system, that tells which where you are going, the system works in a way that keeps into account the fact that up there time goes faster. so it's parked all about ecology today. really fascinating, a professor. i wish i had another 3 hours to talk to the notion of time, but it's been really interesting to at least tap a little bit into the notion of the end perception of time and what is it doesn't exist, isn't illusion. thank you. very much for this wonderful insight and i wish you all the best of luck and i hope we get to do this again soon. thank you. i hope so as well, and thank you for your precious which are very much of the point. and this is

a fascinating tool because i hope to talk to you again. definitely thanks a lot. be safe. the look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given by human beings, except when the shorter the conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. the point obviously is to great track, rather than fear take on various jobs with the artificial intelligence real. summoning the demon

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