after the american withdrawal of dennis and remains broken and the american people poor and no one is held to account the cross walking up canister. and i'm joined by my guess, marvin wind bomb in washington. he's the director of afghanistan and pakistan studies at the middle east institute in del mar. we have scott ritter. he is a former intelligence officer and the united nations weapons inspector. and in kabul, we have talked with him. he is a conflict. peace and security expert, or tell me cross our rules and effects. that means he can jump in anytime you want . and i always appreciate when we go to scott, 1st, many of us watching this conflict for 2 decades expected this outcome was only the date that mattered most here. made my introduction, i said, i call it a complete and utter failure. the american people are poor and no one is held account. and if no one is held account, scott,

then it's going to happen again. go ahead your thoughts. of course it's going to happen again. it's in the, it's in the d. n a or the united states. so when we intervene, we intervene using a american centered template that is designed to placate domestic political factions. here in the united states, not to solve problems overseas, we've seen this almost everywhere. united states intervenes afghanistan was doomed to fail from the start because we didn't respect. you know, how soon tribal sensitivity is partially wally, you know, and nothing we didn't understand the area we came in. we impose our will and we sought to build afghans in, in, in our model, especially their military. i mean, when we tried to do is, is build a, a miniature united states army, a miniature united states, security services, trained equip, like

u. s. military. and they can't function why? because you can't take it american style military templates and impose it on corruption. and that's what we have. we have generals who inflate their rank still money to treat their soldiers or lee. there's no motivation at the end of the day of the soldiers, not willing to die for a cause. then the army that she's part of isn't going to fight, and that's where we see the united states without a touch. we had military leaders who have deceived themselves and deceived their civilian leadership and saying that they have a solution. and yet every year, every 2 years, we rotate these military years out defeated. and we rotate a new series of military leaders. we say the same thing, die with us become obvious, we were going to when we weren't going to prevail. and it's time to leave, it's going to be ugly. going to be very ugly. the only way to get out of my stock and let me go to and you and couple, i mean we are we, this was known, this was known to the politicians and this was known to be american military. all

you have to do is to read the ask and papers and it was one big cover, up sham corruption operation. and we know it. if this is knowable, fax, it's in the afghan papers. it didn't get enough coverage and in the mainstream media. but this is knowable information and they knew this from the very beginning . it wasn't something that slowly got out of control. it's your country, and it's your government here. i mean, what are your reflections after 20 years? i mean, what has been accomplished here after through 2 trillion dollars, a $100000000000.00 to train the afghan army and police. and now we have reports on a daily basis. they're just dropping their arms and they're fleeing if they can, across the border. that's a lot of money down the drain here. what did you get for it? go ahead in kabul, when i think it's a really harsh analysis or saying it has gone down to drone or draw or drain and everybody is dropping the guns. and i don't think that's the case. yes, we have had corruption prevailing. a lot of money has been spoiled. but that, that,

that was expected in a, in a scenario where you, you have starting from scratch all on the ashes of the conflict left behind by the russian withdrawal and late eighties. that's hard to happen. we had weak institutions and a lot of money was pump in all of the sudden. now let me come to the blind or what is that we have achieved, mainly, you know, honest on and 2001 was in tatters. we had a civil war wing on all of the country was a failure. and after 2001 institution was stablished, we have a democratic system established. we had 4 rounds of residential elections, 3 downs of parliamentary elections, provincial councils were selected elected. we have a large cadre of one strained at home and abroad on, on in the more modern institutions, we have a very strong special forces that are defending the country. i mean,

dropping the arm is all around most shock. i mean it, hey hang on here, but there is growing reports. is that one providence after another falling to the taliban? after a 100? i'm sorry. excuse me. after a $100000000000.00. ok. all you see is the creep of the taliban here. right limits . let's get marvin into the, into the program. marvin and washington can hang on. let's get, make, let me get, let's get everyone in the conversation 1st. then we can, you know, jump in. marvin, let me go to you. we have heard, you've heard the program so far. i know you probably don't agree with me or scott, your thoughts, my friend, please. well, i know i have differences with you in scott, not that would you say doesn't have some validity. but i think you've joined some of the 1st of all, when the international forces came in, remember, this was an international effort. this was not led to be sure, but this was in the national wherever they were supported by the you one. my point

here being is when they came in, there was a great deal of support for the foreign forces. they didn't see them as occupiers at all because this life under the bond was rather sad. i was there when the only one for period when the troll problem and it was the proverbial graveyard. so it was a big change and as we started pointed out the have been accomplishments, but there's no question the ball was dropped. well, 1st of all, we went into iraq and that took place. so we never really united states which were contribution. and those early days we are, we allowed the in churches to rebuild. and by the time we woke up to the

fact that there was an insurgency that we would deep into iraq and did not respond and didn't really effectively respond until later. but it was already too late. they had established themselves within the country. let me just add to that, mr. pointed out a great deal was accomplished and this whole generation of guns came, you know, came into being here with an investment in this country, a strong investment. unfortunately, the leadership and to some extent the united states and some of his doctors let them down. but don't ever get the sense you're not the guns, tribal society or not. do you are yearning to see the taller one return? because i mean to say what that is, because when you do, they're going to be millions of refugees, of people who cannot possibly survive in that kind of regime. okay, well scott,

and i mean from what we've heard from our other guess here, there could have been other outcomes. it's very hard to convince me that could have been any other outcome than the one we're facing right now. after 20 years, after 2 trillion dollars after $100000000000.00 to train the military and the police force as a can you see in a counter argument how this could have been different because it seems to me that there is no other way to see the outcome that we've seen that we other than what we see now, go ahead, scott. well, in order for their to have been another outcome, we would have had to approach entry and afghanistan differently. meaning that, well, it doesn't mean that we embrace the radical elements of the taliban in their id. ology and how the govern. we needed to understand that there were, you know, there was a moderate taliban at the time. and had we engaged with the moderate taliban? and we in both the pastor wally it comes to, you know, and

a sound been lun saying, you know, and in speaking in the language of islam that you know, these are foreigners have betrayed the, the, the, the, the, the trust and confidence that the gains gave when they gave host to them that they, they betrayed them by attacking the united states. and we worked with, you know, atkins, neighbors, morgan in a more concerted trash and respectful of the fact that they live in the region. we don't, we might have been able to come up with an outcome that was different than what we have today, what, what, what's going to happen. but anytime that we see to impose our will, that we see to project american sensibilities an american way of doing business in a foreign land, especially one like afghanistan, you're doomed to fail. yes, many institutions were built. i don't disagree with this. i. we recognize that there are hundreds of thousands of afghans who are trained in the military, trained in the police force. we understand their institutions. but these

institutions all exist with foundation and framework of provided by the united states. and now that we're withdrawing this framework and foundation is collaging, there's nothing there. well, i am saying this, this got history to reinforce my question. i mean this is what happened to the british. this is what happened to the so we, it's why did the americans think it would be different? because we're american, man, we do it better. we always when, you know, we're very optimistic. whatever you want to say in the bottom line is we delude ourselves more often than not by, by believing that we alone have the solution. there is a humorous in ignorance on the part of the united states when it comes to international nations and, and especially the internal domestic realities of these nations. when we see to impose our will, don't understand them, see them through a veil written by domestic american politics. i mean, when you have to explain the congress what's going on and then you're not explaining the re, the about the dentist and you're explaining how we spend money in afghanistan. you

create this artificial reality look at david portrays is repeated testimony before congress will get it today through the filter reality that we know it today and you'll realize that he was lying and deceiving and just plain wrong about everything. look at the crystals counterinsurgency program. failure from the start wasn't going to succeed. but even if you did come in with a different military strategy or you are going to do is kill afghans more efficiently. that's not how you went to war. you went to war by getting the people tonight. we've got to have the jump in here. i had to jump in here. we're going to go to a short break gentlemen. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on afghanistan state with our the, the the

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the families that mark i took marking function. you would like to get some idea of who definition me to do. i don't know whether you got that limit and i wanted them off. you're gonna go back to the left me about the less about the me ah, welcome back to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter labelle,

remind you we're discussing afghanistan. ah, okay, go back to much talking in kabul. i mean, let's, let's go back to the very, very beginning of all of this. the, the, the reason why the united states attacked and occupied afghanistan was because of the role that couple was involved with al qaeda in the attacks of september 11th. i think a counter of factual history could have come out very differently. per afghanistan . arcadia was there being given aid and comfort. it should have just been a police operation. go in, take care of that and then leave was occupation of the country absolutely necessary because we listen to scott here. almost every other scenario you can think of. and i think all of this is actually been tried and with the same conclusion. so do you think that was a good idea and the 1st place to have african has been occupied by outsiders?

go ahead and couple, you know, bob, i was not allowed to finish earlier, just a couple of sentences on that. don't look at things from black and white perspective. there's always an on an honest on as well. there are great areas. i want to proceed and response to the 1st question that there were significant mistakes made the 1st and foremost during the born conference, a lot of leveraging spatial is given to the warlords. the taliban would not not engage in the conference. they are not going wider, did miss lamb, but then it was not and why did. and that created a situation where a certain group was left out of the whole process and they felt like they had 3 months later on when americans came now coming back to the retrospect, you know, we can go further into retrospect and think of 19808990. when the russians left unilaterally, without consulting the partners here in cobbler had at that time and effort was made on international communities park. we may not end up in

a situation when 911 happened. so one can really deliberate on the boss and can be there. but what i can tell you is that i've honest on did have an opportunity even after the american envision, you know, where in the one conference had everybody had an inclusive bit inclusive piece process. their inclusion of all parties, whatever the situation were, all would have to be part of the process later on. the americans pushed for military con guest bush administrator administration. didn't allow. 7 a peace process to, to begin. and that continued the policies ship happen unilaterally. the one government stake wasn't taken and the whole process. so i mean, one can look at in high might and talk about so many things. but now the situation is as that, yes, we had mistakes, we had achievements a lot of accomplishments. but now is the time where the international community and

the regional powers, including china and russia, but have to chip in and contribute to the peace process. the past can be deliberated a lot. we have lost so and the reason why i bring it up because you're going to have to face that. ok, i will be american withdrawl. so you're going to have to face those reality. marvin, let me go to you. i mean, it, is it really, really over over, because if you even look at the chatter about contingency plans and out beyond afghanistan's border is american military might be close by. i mean, is, is it ever really ever going to come to an end because there are too many people institutional interest that would like to see this keep going on? obviously, the government in kabul would like this to continue on. so we can, we've talked about the past, let's talk about the present. let's talk about what's going to happen after the final american troop. if that ever happens, leaves up canister and go ahead. marvin and washington is not going to be any return troops. re question is what the united states is going to do is say our

power. and the truth is, it hasn't decided is going to, to the extent that it has any capacity at all because change from the gulf is expensive. and difficult operation is certainly not going to be a timely kind. the response, which is what is most needed costing support for our target for our son's forces that are in jeopardy. so know if there's not going to be that the question then comes down to as the situation worse is, is be united states going to then use whatever capacity it has to try to, to slow the process. i don't think it can stop, but it can only slow it. my sense here at this point is that it, it may do so, but it is that point. it will be too late because if there is infiltration of the

cities, it's going to be impossible to use it power effectively without killing innocent civilians. let me just go back on one thing, what there are no longer it. we're going what there are on track matic, talent on recognized, lay him again, that there was a diplomatic route to getting what they have always wanted and that goes back to the very beginning. they always want to restoration of the ambridge in bon. they could not have been violated because if they were, they would have been no agreement there. as it was a bond, it was impossible to put together with them the launch of the 1st, any kind of agreement. and we're not for russia and iran, as well as the united states, they would as sitting on them, they would not ever read your throat atalla bought into that would have been no agreement. so it,

we all will all looking for that magic thing that might have worked if only we done that night. st. rain, there was no way in which the now tory is warlords. were going to sit down with the people who would they had as far as they were concerned? defeated. so i yes it's there really never was a moment. not one last thing. ok. and i did stage. remember, george bush made a great deal of the fact were not there for nation building. he wanted to pull out as quickly as possible because your rock is what he was on is my and that was the whole point of another another another another mistake. okay. i mean, scott, i mean again, the reason why i ask this question about what's happening now moving forward because there's a moral hazard issue out there. if the government and couple know is american error power is going to be out there and they can call upon it. and of course will be

people in the pentagon to be more than willing to do that. because raytheon and everybody else, you know, they get, get to get paid to. i mean, the moral hazard thing really bothers me because i visited couple. i talked to officials about corruption and you know, was always about the degree of it. everyone agreed that it's there and, and so you know, there's this moral hazard slippery slope issue here. that's why i keep asking and we really, really leaving, leaving. go ahead, scott. well, i mean, we need to understand it while we were in afghanistan and we had air power based in afghanistan. we had the ability to search more air power from aircraft carriers . busy or maybe and see, and from bases in the, in the middle east through got you see any airspace that was permissive. right now we're talking about a situation where there will be no american aircraft based in afghanistan. everything has to come from abroad, which complicates the delivery of munitions greatly in terms of

a timeliness factor. and in terms of a sustainability factor. so anybody who understands if we didn't win the war when we had everything going for us from an airpower perspective. and suddenly things that were going to somehow put our finger on the scale of an outcome with this ridiculous concept of surgeon air power from, from the, from, from the gulf region. doesn't understand how air power works. we've lost it's over . it's done a will be no cavalry riding to the rescue. busy the air bar will not ship is thing when the last american troops leave. when the last foreign troops leave, we're talking about a survivor really factor of weeks, maybe months. but at the end of the day, the collapse of the couple government will be as rapid and decisive as the collapse of the south vietnamese government. between march and april of 975. that's just the re, scott, you'll be much surprised. that's what the name of this program is. it's saigon in

afghanistan. let's go to our guest in kabul. how do you think? how do you think about the prospect of the government collapsing over the next few months? because it seems like almost inevitably it was there propped up because of us power and money. if the at least the power drives up, i don't know about the money because, you know, we've heard these politicians say they'll continue to support it. but i think the saigon analogy is really good. i mean, can remember very well scott, you probably, well as well. and marvin, of course, the debate, you know, should they continue funding on south vietnam and cambodia and even the congress said, no, it's over. it's over here, so let's go back to a couple here. how are you thinking about the collab potential collapse of the government in kabul? you know, the cobbler government, the government did not collapse after 989 when the situation was much worse than it

is. i mean, a situation was much worse than what we had worked right now. and the job resumes survived with a very little support from the struggle, struggling more school, which had so many grow make issues. the situation is much different than at that time right now. so that is one thing that you have to keep in mind. secondly, the one who says, you know, the, this, the thinking of collapse comes from the mindset that wrote the pallet and have people know a certain districts and certain parts of the country. and they might be marching forward. but then look at the last week or last 10 days. confrontations that it has been a lot of clarity of the 80 as from the taliban president. so the, the one forces that be able to stand up the challenge and keep the taliban at base . what i want to emphasize yet, any war of any scale is going to cause destruction cows for any country, even for a very well sector. strong can be forget about the federal state, like i'm honest on,

but out the way and our be is really the peace process to succeed. and if any level of insurgency, continuation of warfare is going to try to stability of a lot of them, there is no doubt. and i believe that the only be out for us is the peace process to succeed. so instead of really counting the months and days, let's think of the possibility of the peace process to proceed. ok, hey, let me know. well that, that has given us the hope for a continuation of the peace process. okay, we're almost out of time you're marvin, i'll give you the last 30 seconds. go ahead. i'm a little bit more pessimistic that we're starting on this. i don't think there is a piece of this, but that's totally fine. have to are convinced that they were on the very military victory. the united states is not losing here. the loser in south carolina. stand and see i've got people. and i think we have to keep that in mind. united states

will go on without going to sun, although we replications it's, it's looking all the parts of the world to invest militarily and in other ways. so if you ask on people who are going to suffer here, and that's the tragedy that, well, we can all agree on this panel. it is a tragedy here many thanks them, i guess in washington del mar, and in kabul. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our to see you next time. and remember the ah no. when i would chose the wrong one, i'll just don't rule out the thing because the after kid an engagement equal the trail when so

many find themselves well, the part we choose to look for common ground or military mission against dam. we'll conclude on august 31st. i was going to who did a good to us all the quote, i quoted young george. and i really need proof for my he got to be southern company, southern the cut cut all the what i think that was the place to get a quote to show me that this was the right weapon against the right hon bought it from but it was filled out through z o o, z the, the signing of the us to all about agreement and i laid the groundwork for the road

ahead toward a lasting peace in afghan the stand and i know that i'm a dunaway and he goes crazy, a frat party in afghanistan is over 20 years, leaving behind quite a man. only one main thing is important for not as an internationally speaking, that is a nation's allowed to do anything. all the master races. and then you have the mind, nations who are the slave americans, brock obama, and others have had a concept of american exceptionalism. international law exists as long as it serves american interest. if it doesn't,

doesn't exist by turning those russians into this dangerous man that wants to take over the world. that was a cause or strategy. so some of it on your own. i english v i v. i not leash 2 of them. one in tablet, block nato. it's our, we move east. the reason us, hey jim, it's dangerous is the, the sovereignty of the countries, the exceptionalism that america uses and its international war planning is one of the greatest threats to the populations of different nations. if nature, what is founded, shareholders in the united states and elsewhere in large companies would lose millions and millions or is business and business is good. and that is the reality of what we're facing, which is fascist. the

the of the scenes of gridlock and cues and deadly crushes to leave and use team arrives in cobble 10 days after the taliban took over. the spark of patriotism for fear of 14 is slipping away and has us weapons contracts is called to continue . the pentagon, the afghan mission, which he makes editor in chief thinks the clear reasons i did the was the massive flow of money that went into the wrong pocket. it can only be called corruption on a larger scale and you're facing a security nightmares. thousands have been playing, i've got a stance brushes, top diplomat says it's just one of the consequences of us interference in other countries of fashion. i've listed for military campaigns that have resulted in nothing but a surge of terrorism and unprecedented drug trafficking,

while illegal migrants flooded.