financial to get a money laundering person to get this is a good start. well, we have our 3 banks all set up here. maybe something in europe, something in america, something overseas. in the cayman islands, you never know how these banks are complicit in their pocket. we just have to be mccall. hey, i'm ready to do some serious my laundry. ok, let's see how we did. well, we've got a nice luxury watch for max and for stacy. oh, beautiful jewelry. and how about automobile? again, format, you know, it, money laundering is highly legal. nokia cook, watch the with the

hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter labelle lastly and appears to be near washington's 20 year effort to nation building. denison was always going to end this way, a complete and total failure. it is doubtful. the corrupt government in kabul will last long after the american withdrawal of dennis and remains broken and the american people poor and no one is held to account. the cross talking of canister, and i'm joined by my guess, marvin wind bomb in washington. he is the director of afghanistan and pakistan studies at the middle east institute in del mar. we have scott ritter. he is a former intelligence officer and the united nations weapons inspector. and in couple we have talked with him, he is a conflict, peace and security expert art tillman cross talk rules and effects. that means he

can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate me go to scott, 1st, many of us watching this conflict for 2 decades expected this outcome was only the dates that mattered most here. made my introduction, i said, i call it in a complete and utter failure. the american people are poor and no one is held account. and if no one has held account, scott, then it's going to happen again. go ahead your thoughts. of course it's going to happen again. it's in the it's, it's in the d. n a or the united states. so when we intervene, we intervene using a american centered template that is designed to placate domestic political factions. here in the united states, not to solve problems overseas, we've seen this almost everywhere. united states intervenes afghanistan was doomed to fail from the start because we didn't respect your costume, tribal sensitivity as part wally and nothing. we didn't understand the area we came

in. we impose our will and then we sought to build f ganesha in, in, in our model, especially their military. i mean, when we tried to do is, is build a miniature united states army of miniature united states, security services, trained equip, like u. s. military. and they can't function why? because you can't take it american style, military templates and impose it on corruption. and that's what we have. we have generals who inflate their rank still, money to treat their soldiers or lee. there is no motivation at the end of the day of the soldiers, not willing to die for a cause. then the army that she's part of isn't going to fight, and that's where we see the united states without a touch. we've had military leaders who have deceived themselves and deceive their civilian leadership and saying that they have a solution. and yet every year, every 2 years, we rotate these military years out defeated. we rotate

a new series of military leaders. we say the same thing, die with us become obvious, we were going to, when we were going to prevail. and it's time to leave, it's going to be ugly. going to be very ugly. the only way to get out of my stock and let me go to you and couple, i mean we all we, this was known, this was known to the politicians and this was known to be american military. all you have to do is to read the asking papers and it was one big cover, up sham corruption operation. and we know it. if this is knowable, fax, it's in the afghan papers. it didn't get enough coverage and in the mainstream media. but this is knowable. information and they knew this from the very beginning . it wasn't something that slowly got out of control. it's your country, and it's your government here. i mean, what are your reflections after 20 years? i mean, what has been accomplished here after through 2 trillion dollars, a $100000000000.00 to train the afghan army and police. and now we have reports on

a daily basis. they're just dropping their arms and they're fleeing if they can, across the border. that's a lot of money down the drain here. what did you get for it? go ahead in kabul. well, i think it's a really harsh analysis or saying it has gone down to drone or draw or drain and everybody is dropping the guns. and i don't think that's the case. yes, we have had corruption prevailing, a lot of money has been spoilt. but that, that, that was expected in a, in a scenario where you, you have starting from scratch all on the ashes of the conflict left behind by the russian withdrawal and late eighty's. it's hard to happen. we had the institutions and a lot of money was pump in all of the sudden. now let me come to the point of what is that we have achieved, mainly, you know, honest on in 2001 was in tatters. we had a civil war wing on whole of the country was a failure. and after 2001 institution was stablished, we have

a democratic system established. we had 4 rounds of residential elections, 3 downs of parliamentary elections, provincial councils were selected elected. we have a large gallery of one strained at home and abroad on, on in the morning of more than institutions. we have a very strong special forces that are defending the country. i mean, dropping the arm is all around most talk. i mean it, hey hang on here, but there is growing reports. is that one providence after another following to the taliban, after a 100? i'm sorry. excuse me. after a $100000000000.00. ok. all you see is that creep of the taliban? here i limits. let's get marvin into the, into the program marketing washington and hang on, let's get, let me get. let's get everyone in the conversation 1st, then we can, you know, jump in. marvin, let me go to you. we have heard you have heard the program so far. i know you

probably don't agree with me or scott, your thoughts, my friend please. well, that's right. i know i have differences with you in scott. not that would you say doesn't have some validity. but i think you've joined some of the world conclusions . first of all, when the international forces came in, remember, this was an international effort. this was not led to be sure, but this was in the national weapon that was supported by the u. one. my point here being is when they came in, there was a great deal of support for the foreign forces. they didn't see them as occupiers at all because this life under the bond was rather sad. i was there when the only one for period when the troll problem and it was the proverbial graveyard. so we had big change and as we started pointed out have

been accomplishments, but there's no question at the ball was dropped off. first of all, we went into iraq and that took pm. this is all. so we never really united states. what contribution and those early days we are, we allowed the churches to rebuild. and by the time we woke up to the fact that there was an insurgency that we would deep into iraq and did not respond and didn't really effectively respond until later. but it was already too late. they had established themselves within the country. let me just add to that much to pointed out a great deal was accomplished. this whole generation of guns came, you know, came into being here with an investment in this country, a strong investment on fortunately, the leadership and to some extent,

the united states and some of his doctors let them down. but don't ever get to says that the guns tribal society are not d r yearning to see the taller one return. because i mean to say what that is. because when they do, they're going to be millions of refugees, of people who cannot possibly survive in that kind of regime. okay, well scott, and i mean from what we've heard from our other guess here, there could have been other outcomes. it's very hard to convince me that could have been any other outcome than the one we're facing right now. after 20 years, after 2 trillion dollars after $100000000000.00 to train the military and the police force as a can you see and a counter argument how this could have been different because it seems to me that there is no other way to see the outcome that we seeing that we other than what we see now. go ahead, scott. well, in order for there to have been another outcome, we would have had to approach entry and afghanistan differently. meaning that,

well, it doesn't mean that we embrace the radical elements of the taliban in their id. ology and how the govern. we needed to understand that there were, you know, there was a moderate taliban at the time. and had we engaged with the moderate taliban? and we in both the pastor wally it comes to, you know, and a sound in london saying, you know, and in speaking in the language of islam that you know, these are foreigners have betrayed the, the, the, the, the, the trust and confidence that the afghans gave when they gave host to them that they, they betrayed them by attacking the united states. and we worked with, you know, atkins, neighbors, morgan in a more concerted trash and respectful of the fact that they live in the region. we don't, we might have been able to come up with an outcome that was different than what we have today, what, what, what's going to happen. but anytime that we see to impose our will,

that we see to project american sensibilities an american way of doing business in a foreign land, especially one like afghanistan, you're doomed to fail. yes, many institutions were built. i don't disagree with this. i. we recognize that there are hundreds of thousands of afghans who are trained in the military, trained in the police force. we understand their institutions. but these institutions all exist with foundation and framework of provided by the united states. now that we're withdrawing its framework and foundation is collaging, there's nothing there. well, i am saying this, this got history do. if you reinforce my question, i mean this is what happened to the british. this is what happened to the so we, it's why did the americans think it would be different? because we're american, man, we do it better. we always when, you know, we're very optimistic. whatever you want to say, the bottom line is, we delude ourselves more often than not by believing that we alone have the solution. there is a humorous and ignorance on the part of the united states when it comes to

international nations and especially the internal domestic realities of these nations. when we see to impose our will, don't understand them. see them through a bill given by domestic american politics. i mean, when you have to split the congress, what's going on can spam not explaining the re, the about the dentist and you're explaining how we spend money in afghanistan. you create this artificial reality look at david portrays, is repeated testimony before congress will get it today. the filter of reality that we know it today and you'll realize that he was lying and deceiving and just plain wrong about everything. look at the crystals counterinsurgency program. failure from the start wasn't going to succeed. but even if you did come in with a different military strategy or you are going to do is kill afghans more efficiently. that's not how you went to war. you went to war by getting the people tonight. we've got to have the jump in here. i have to jump in here, we're going to go to a short break gentlemen. and after that short break,

we'll continue our discussion on afghanistan, spain, with the ah, driven by general shape bank control. those with the in the me the dares thing. we dare to ask in american love by an armed ah,

this was a fundamental part of how our political leadership and our country, large understood the bargain. you get a whole and then you know, rebel right, as the things you don't revolt if you have a stake in the system, be really interesting to dial and that, and think about the longer, deeper history of what housings meant in the united states. not just that old question of the american dream, but the big question of who the dream has been for the family. is that with mark mark new function you go with some more. yeah. worried miller definition

another do y'all done? got. i've got that limit and i wanted them off. you're gonna be like that. you don't know the work for me about the less about the me ah, welcome back to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter labelle, remind you we're discussing afghanistan. mm. okay, go back to my stuck in, in kabul. i mean, let's, let's go back to the very,

very beginning of all of this, the, the, the reason why the united states attacked and occupied afghanistan was because of the role that couple was involved with al qaeda in the attacks of september 11th. if i think a counter factual history could have come out very differently, per afghanistan, al qaeda was there being given aid and comfort, it should have just been a police operation. go in, take care of that and then leave was occupation of the country absolutely necessary because we listened to scott here. almost every other scenario you can think of. and i think all of this is actually been tried and with the same conclusion. so do you think that was a good idea and the 1st place to have ask in a span occupied by outsiders. go ahead and couple, you know, bob, i was not allowed to finish earlier. just couple of sentences on that. don't look at things from black and white perspective, there's always an on an honest on as well. great areas. i want to proceed and

response to the 1st question that there were significant mistakes made the 1st and foremost during the born conference, a lot of leveraging spatial is given to the warlords. the taliban would not not engage in the conference. they are not in wider, did miss lamb, but then it was not invited and that created a situation where a certain group was left out of the whole process and they felt like they had 3 months later on when americans came now coming back to the retrospect you know, we can go further into retrospect and think of 19885990. when the russians left unilaterally, without consulting the partners here in cobbler had, at that time and effort was made on international communities part, we may not end up in a situation with $911.00 happened. so one can really deliberate on the boss and can be there. but what i can tell you is that i've honestly did have an opportunity even after the american envision, you know, where in the one conference had everybody had an inclusive bit inclusive piece

process. their inclusion of all parties, whatever the situation were, all would have to be part of the process later on. the americans pushed for military con guest bush administrator administration. didn't allow. 7 a peace process to, to begin. and that continued the policies ship happen unilaterally. the one government state wasn't taken in the whole process. so i mean, one can look at in high might and talk about so many things. but now the situation is as that, yes, we had mistakes, we had achievements a lot of accomplishments, but now is the time where the international community and the regional powers, including china and russia, but have to chip in and contribute to the peace process. the past can be deliberated a lot. we have lost the reason, the reason why i bring it up because you're going to have to face that. ok, i would be american withdrawal,

so you're going to have to face those reality. marvin, let me go to you. i mean, is it really, really over over, because if you even look at the chatter about contingency plans and out beyond afghanistan's border is american military might be close by. i mean, is it ever really ever going to come to an end because there are too many people institutional interest that would like to see this keep going on? obviously, the government in kabul would like this to continue on. so we can, we've talked about the past, let's talk about the present. let's talk about what's going to happen after the final american troop. if that ever happens, leaves up canis, then go ahead. marvin in washington, it's not going to be any return troops. re question is, what united states do, say our power. and the truth is, it hasn't decided, is going to, to the extent that it has any capacity at all, because one change from the gulf is expensive. and difficult operation is

certainly not going to be a timely kind. the response, which is what is most needed cost in support for our target for our son's forces that are in jeopardy. so know if there's not going to be that the question then comes down to as the situation worsens, is be united states going to then use whatever capacity it has to try to to slow the process. i don't think it can stop it. it can only slow it. my sense here at this point is that it may do so, but it is that point, it will be too late because if there is infiltration of the cities, it's going to be impossible to use it a power effectively without killing innocent civilians. let me just go back on one thing. what there are no, margaret. tell me what there are or on track matic talent on

recognize les and again that there was a diplomatic route to getting what they have always wanted. and that goes back to the very beginning. they've always wanted a restoration of the emeralds in bond. they could not have been violated because if they were, they would be no agreement there. as it was a bond, it was impossible to put together with them the launch or the 1st, any kind of agreement, if we're not for russia and iran, as well as the united states, they would as sitting on them, they would not have agreed. you throw the top on into that there would have been no agreements. so it, we all will all looking for that magic thing that might have worked if only we done that. in that same vein, there was no way in which the now, tory is warlords. we're going to sit down with the people who when they had as far

as they were concerned, defeated. so i, yes, it's, there really never was a moment. not one last thing. ok. and i did stage. remember, george bush made a great deal of the fact we're not there for nation building. he wanted to pull out as quickly as possible because your rock is what he was on his mind. and that was the whole point of another, another another another mistake, okay. i mean, scott, i mean, again, the reason why i asked a question about what's happening now moving forward because there's a moral hazard issue out there. if the government and couple know is american air power is going to be out there and they can call upon it. and of course will be people in the pentagon to be more than willing to do that. because raytheon and everybody else, you know, they get, get to get paid to. i mean, the moral hazard thing really bothers me because i visited couple. i talked to officials about corruption and you know, was always about the degree of it. everyone agreed that it's there. and,

and so you know, there's this moral hazard slippery slope issue here. that's why i keep asking, you know, we really, really leaving, leaving go ahead, scott. well, i mean, we need to understand that while we were in afghanistan and we had air power based in afghanistan, we had the ability to search more air power from aircraft carriers. busy or maybe and see, and from bases in the, in the middle east through got you see any air space there was permissive. right now we're talking about a situation where there will be no american aircraft based in afghanistan. everything has to come from abroad, which complicates the delivery of munitions greatly in terms of a timeliness factor. and in terms of a sustainability factor. so anybody who understands if we didn't win the war when we had everything going for us from an airpower perspective. and suddenly things that were going to somehow, with our finger on the scale of an outcome with this ridiculous concept of surgeon

air power from, from the, from, from the gulf region. doesn't understand how air power works. we've lost it's over, it's done or will be no cavalry riding to the rescue. busy the air bar will not ship is staying when the last american troops leave. when the last foreign troops leave, we're talking about a survival factor of weeks, maybe months. but at the end of the day, the collapse of the cobble government will be as rapid and decisive as the collapse of the south vietnamese government. between march and april of 975. that's just the reality. it's got, you'll be much surprised. that's what the name of this program is. it's saigon in afghanistan. let's go to our guest in kabul. how do you think? how do you think about the prospect of the government collapsing over the next few months? because it seems like almost inevitably it was there propped up because of us power

and money. if we leased the power drives up, i don't know about the money because, you know, we've heard these politicians say they'll continue to support it. but i think the saigon analogy is really good. i mean, can remember very well scott, you probably, well as well. and marvin, of course, the debate, you know, should they continue funding on south vietnam and cambodia and even the congress said, no, it's over. it's over here, so let's go back to a couple here. how are you thinking about the collab potential collapse of the government in kabul? you know, the cognitive government, the government did not collapse after 989 when the situation was much worse than it is in a situation was much worse than what we have worked right now. and the jeep resumes, survived with a very little support from the struggle struggling law school, which had so many grown the issues. the situation is much different than at that time right now. so that is one thing that you have to keep in mind. secondly,

the other one says, you know that the, this, the thinking of collapse comes from the mindset that the taliban have people know a certain districts and certain parts of the country and they might be marching forward. but then look at the last week or last 10 days. confrontations, there has been a lot of clearance of the 80 as from the taliban president. so the one forces have been able to stand up to the challenge and keep the taliban at base. what i want to emphasize yet, any war of any scale is going to cause destruction cows for any country, even for a very well sector. strong can be forget about a 3rd street like a lot of sun. but the way it is really the peace process to succeed. any, any level of insurgency, continuation of warfare is going to try to stay below if you have a lot of them. there is no doubt. and i believe that the only way out for us is the peace process to succeed. so instead of really counting the months and days,

let's think of the possibility of the peace process to proceed. ok, hey, let me jump on that. that just given us the hope for a continuation of the peace process. okay, we're almost out of time you're marvin. i'll give you the last 30 seconds. go ahead . i'm a little bit more pessimistic that we're starting on this. i don't think there is a piece that tell him i have to are convinced that they're on the verge of a military victory. the united states is not the loser here. the loser is our guys then see i've got people and i think we have to keep that in mind. united states will go on without done, although we will have replications it's, it's looking all the parts of the world to invest with charlie and in other ways. so it's going to people who are going to suffer here. and that's the tragedy that,

well, we can all agree on this panel. it is a tragedy here many thanks them, i guess in washington del mar, and in kabul. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c you next time. and remember the, the military mission against and we'll conclude on august 31st. i want to sounds good to us all the quote unquote a young girl. and i really need proof so much. you've got to do that subtle company, the cut, cut all the month. i think that was the quote to show me that this was the right weapon against the right hon. bye,

bombarded was filled out through z o o z the the signing of the us tell about agreement and laid the groundwork for the road ahead toward a lasting peace in afghanistan. and i know we still need that mcdonough, but he does have cataract drugs are essential for millions of patients or are they, they want that pill that they hope will take care of their problem thoroughly and rapidly in the short term, they really work. the problem is in a long term, they're mostly disastrous. suddenly stopping a drug can cause withdrawal symptoms more serious than the condition that was meant to treat instead of the beneficial effects of these different medicines. any up to

something wonderful. very often they're harmful effects and up to something terrible. can pills so of all ills? or are we trying to mitigate life itself? i just think i was and i was just scared scare a little girl. the 24. and like, didn't have to be so complicated the desperation in couple and nothing. crew experiences 1st time the chaos in the african capital 10 days after the taliban rushers evacuation 500 people from afghanistan including citizens and other from the former soviet countries among the g. and ukrainians and to show patriotism or fear of full jeans

slipping away us west.