what did you call that number? and i wanted them to go back to the left me about the run, the less about the me and the desperation in cobble on our crew experiences firsthand. the chaos and the i've got capital 10 days off the taliban. so russia was evacuating 500 people from i've got to start including its own citizens and others from former soviet countries, among the topics and ukrainian show of patriotism or a fear of the fortunes living away us. weapon contractors call to continue. the

pentagon. gotten mission editor and she thinks there are clear reasons why it was the massive flow monday that went into the wrong pocket. it could only be called corruption on a large scale a few. and i'll see if an actual across all can if you want me to fine land, kevin, i know that the whole defeats in and out to guide you through the morning. i will use headlines to join us again. ah ah ah ah hello and welcome to cross talk. we're all things considered. i'm peter live l. a last me end appears to be near washington's 20 year effort to nation building. happiness was always going to end this way. a complete and total failure. it is

doubtful, the corrupt government in kabul will last long after the american withdrawal of denison remains broken and the american people poor and no one is held to account the cross walking up canister. and i'm joined by my guess, marvin wind bomb in washington. he is the director of afghanistan and pakistan studies at the middle east institute in del mar. we have scott ritter. he is a former intelligence officer and the united nations weapons inspector. and in kabul, we have will start with him. he is a conflict. peace and security expert, or a gentleman, cross talk, rules and effects. that means he can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate, let me go to scott 1st. many of us watching this conflict for 2 decades expected this outcome was only the date that mattered most here. made my introduction,

i said, i call it a complete and utter failure. the american people are poor and no one is held account. and if no one is held account, scott, then it's going to happen again. go ahead your thoughts. of course it's going to happen again. it's in the, it's, it's in the d, n a or the united states. so when we intervene, we intervene using a american centered template that is designed to placate domestic political factions. here in the united states, not to solve problems overseas, we've seen this almost everywhere. united states intervenes afghanistan was doomed to fail from the start because we didn't respect you asked to tribal sensitivity as part of wally. you know, nothing we, we didn't understand the area we came in. we impose our will and then we sought to build afghans in, in, in our model, especially their military. i mean, when we tried to do is, is build a miniature united states army of miniature united states, security services,

trained equip, like u. s. military. and they can't function why? because you can't take it american style, military templates and impose on corruption. and that's what we have. we have generals who inflate their rank still money to treat their soldiers poorly. there's no motivation at the end of the day of the soldier is not willing to die for a cause. then the army that she's part of isn't going to fight, and that's where we see the united states without a touch. we've had military leaders who have deceived themselves and deceive their civilian leadership and saying that they have a solution. and yet every year, every 2 years, we rotate these military leaders out defeated. we rotate a new series of military leaders. we say the same thing. tie with us become obvious, we were going to, when we weren't going to prevail and it's time to leave and it's going to be ugly. going to be very ugly. your way to get out of my stock and let me go to and you and

couple, i mean we all we, this was known, this was known to the politicians and this was known to be american military. all you have to do is to read the asking and papers, and it was one big cover, up sham corruption operation. and we know it. if this is knowable, fax, it's in the afghan papers. it didn't get enough coverage and the mainstream media. but this is knowable. information and they knew this from the very beginning. it wasn't something that slowly got out of control. it's your country, and it's your government here. i mean, what are your reflections after 20 years? i mean, what has been accomplished here after through 2 trillion dollars, a $100000000000.00 to train the african army and police. and now we have reports on a daily basis. they're just dropping their arms and they're fleeing if they can, across the border. that's a lot of money down the drain here. what did you get for it? go ahead in kabul, one thing, it's a really harsh analysis or saying it has gone down to drone or draw or drain and

everybody is dropping the guns. and i don't think that's the case. yes, we have had corruption prevailing. a lot of money has been spoiled. but that, that, that was expected in a, in a scenario where you have starting from scratch all on the ashes of the conflict left behind by the russian withdrawal, the late eighties. that's hard to happen. we had the institutions and a lot of money was pump in all of the sudden. now let me come to the blind or what is that we have achieved. mainly, you know, i want to spend in 2001 was in tatters. we had a civil war wing on whole of the country was a failure. and after 2001 institution was stablished, we have a democratic system established. we had 4 rounds of residential elections, 3 downs of parliamentary elections, provincial councils were selected elected. we have a large cadre of one strained at home and abroad on,

on in the more modern institutions, we have a very strong special forces that are defending the country. i mean, dropping the arm all around most talk. i mean it, hey, hang on here. but there is growing reports. is that one providence after another falling to the taliban? after a 100? i'm sorry. excuse me. after a $100000000000.00. ok. all you see is the creep of the taliban here. right limits? let's get marvin into the, into the program. marvin in washington, hey, hang on, let's get make, let me get. let's get everyone in the conversation 1st, then we can, you know, jump in. marvin, let me go to you. we have heard, you've heard the program so far. i know you probably don't agree with me or scott, your thoughts, my friend, please. well, i know i have differences with you in scott, not that would you say doesn't have some validity. but i think you've joined some of the 1st of all, when the international forces came in, remember,

this was an international effort. this was not led to be sure, but this was in the national wherever they were supported by the u. one. my point here being is when they came in, there was a great deal of support for the foreign forces. they didn't see them as occupiers at all because this life under the bond was rather sad. i was there when the only one for the period when the troll problem and it was the proverbial graveyard. so it was a big change and as we started pointed out have been accomplishments, but there's no question at the ball was dropped off. first of all, we went into iraq and that took place. this is all. so we never really united states which contribution and those early days we are,

we allowed the in churches to rebuild. and by the time we woke up to the fact that there was an insurgency that we would deep into iraq and did not respond and didn't really effectively respond until later. but it was already too late. they had established themselves within the country. let me just add to that, mr. pointed out a great deal was accomplished. this whole generation of guns came, you know, came into being here with an investment in this country, a strong investment. unfortunately, the leadership and to some extent the united states and some of the taxes, let them down. but don't ever get the sense that the guns, tribal society or not, that they are yearning to see the taller one return. because i mean to say what

that is, because when they do, they're going to be millions of refugees, of people who cannot possibly survive in that kind of regime. okay, well scott, i mean from what we've heard from our other guess here, there could have been other outcomes. it's very hard to convince me that could have been any other outcome than the one we're facing right now. after 20 years, after 2 trillion dollars after $100000000000.00 to train the military and the police force as a can you see and a counter argument how this could have been different because it seems to me that there is no other way to see the outcome that we've seen that we other than what we see now. go ahead, scott. well, in order for there to have been another outcome, we would have had to approach entry and afghanistan differently. meaning that, well, it doesn't mean that we embrace the radical elements of the caliber in their id. ology and how the govern. we needed to understand that there were, you know, there was a moderate taliban at the time. and had we engaged with the moderate taliban?

and we in both the pastor wally it comes to, you know, and a sound been lun saying, you know, and in speaking in the language of islam that you know, these are foreigners have betrayed the, the, the, the, the, the trust and confidence that the gains gave when they gave host to them that they may be traded by attacking the united states. and we worked with, you know, atkins, neighbors, morgan in a more concerted trash and respectful of the fact that they live in the region. we don't, we might have been able to come up with an outcome that was different than what we have today, what, what, what's going to happen. but anytime that we see to impose our will, that we see to project american sensibilities an american way of doing business in a foreign land, especially one like afghanistan, you're doomed to fail. yes, many institutions were built. i don't disagree with this. i. we recognize that

there are hundreds of thousands of afghans who are trained in the military, trained in the police force. we understand their institutions. but these institutions all exist with foundation and framework of provided by the united states. and now that we're withdrawing this framework and foundation is collaging, there's nothing there. well, i am saying this, this gotten history to reinforce my question. i mean this is what happened to the british. this is what happened to the so we, it's why did the americans think it would be different? because we're american, man, we do it better. we always when, you know, we're very optimistic. whatever you want to say in the bottom line is we delude ourselves more often than not by, by believing that we alone have the solution. there is a humorous and ignorance on the part of the united states when it comes to international nations and especially the internal domestic realities of these nations. when we seek to impose our will. don't understand them. see them through a bill written by domestic american politics. i mean,

when you have to explain the congress, we're going on, fans ban, you're not explaining the re, the about the dentist and you're explaining how we spend money in afghanistan. you create this artificial reality look at david portrays is repeated testimony before congress will get it today. the filter reality that we know it today and you'll realize that he was lying and deceiving and just plain wrong about everything. look at the crystals counterinsurgency program. failure from the start wasn't going to succeed. but even if you did come in with a different military strategy or you are going to do is kill afghans more efficiently. that's not how you went to war. you went to war by getting the people tonight. we've got to have the jump in here. i had to jump in and we're going to go to a short break gentlemen. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on afghanistan state with our the ah,

ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, the military mission against him will conclude on august 31st ah, one phone for who did a good to us all the quote unquote young good good, good, i will bundle you so much. you got to do something that company the cut, the cut over the water. okay. that i'm going to get caught in the show.

go very good. this was the right weapon against the right? no, no, but i keep somebody go out to reveal the, the signing of the us to all about agreement. and i've laid the groundwork for the road ahead toward a lasting peace in afghan stamps. and i know we still need that mcdonald and does have the welcome back across stock. were all things are considered. i'm peter labelle, remind you we're discussing afghanistan. mm hm. okay, go back to my stuck in, in kabul. i mean,

let's, let's go back to the very, very beginning of all of this, the, the, the reason why the united states attacked and occupied afghanistan was because of the role that couple was involved with al qaeda in the attacks of september 11th. i think a counter factual history could have come out very differently. per afghanistan. al qaeda was there being given aid and comfort. it should have just been a police operation. go in, take care of that and then leave was occupation of the country absolutely necessary because we listen to scott here. almost every other scenario you can think of. and i think all of this is actually been tried and with the same conclusion. so do you think that was a good idea and the 1st place to have african has been occupied by outsiders? go ahead and couple, you know, bob, i was not allowed to finish earlier. just couple of sentences on that. don't look at things from black and white perspective,

there's always an on an honest on as well. there are great areas. i want to proceed and response to the 1st question that there were significant mistakes. made the 1st and foremost during the born conference, a lot of leverage and space was given to the warlords. the taliban would not not engage in the conference. they are not getting wider. it misled me with my dad was not invited. and that created a situation where a certain group was left out of the hood process and they felt like they had grievances better later on when americans came now coming back to the retrospect, you know, we can go further into retrospect and think of 980-8990 when the russians left unilaterally, without consulting the partners here in cobbler had at that time and effort was made on international communities, part may not end up in a situation with 911 happened. so one can really deliberate on the boss and can be there. but what i can tell you is that i've honest on did have an opportunity even

after the american envision, you know, where in the one conference had everybody had an inclusive bit inclusive process. their inclusion of all the parties, whatever our situation, we are, all would have to be part of the process later on. the americans pushed for military con guest bush administrator administration. didn't allow a peace process to, to begin. and that continued the policy ship happen unilaterally the one government state was taken and the whole process. so i mean one can look at in high night and talk about so many things. but now the situation is as that, yes, we had mistakes, we had achievements a lot of accomplishments, but now is the time where the international community and the regional powers, including china and russia, but have to chip in and contribute to the peace process. the past can be deliberated a lot. we have lost so they could be the reason why i bring it up because you're

going to have to face that. ok, i would be american withdrawal. so you're going to have to face those reality. marvin, let me go to you. i mean, is it really, really over over? because if you look at the chatter about contingency plans and out beyond afghanistan's border is american military might be close by. i mean, is it ever really ever going to come to an end because there are too many people institutional interest that would like to see this keep going on. obviously, the government in kabul would like this to continue on. so with we can, we've talked about the past, let's talk about the present and let's talk about what's going to happen after the final american troop, if that ever happens, leaves up canister and go ahead. marvin and washington is not going to be any return troops. re, question is what the united states is going to do is say our power. and the truth is, it hasn't decided. it is going to, to the extent that it has any capacity at all because from the gulf is too

expensive and difficult operation is certainly not going to be a timely kind. the response, which is what is most needed cost in support for our target for our son's forces that are in jeopardy. so know if there's not going to be that the question then comes down to, how does the situation worsens? be united states going to then use whatever capacity it has to try to, to slow the process. i don't think it can stop, but it can only slow it. my sense here at this point is that it may do so, but it is that point, it will be too late because if there is infiltration of the cities, it's going to be impossible to use it a power effectively without killing innocent civilians. let me just go back on one thing, what there are no longer it. we're going what there are on track matic

. told on recognize late in the game that there was a diplomatic route to getting what they have always wanted. and that goes back to the very beginning. they always want to restoration of the ambridge in bon, they could not have been violated because if they were, they would have been no agreement there. as it was a bond, it was impossible to put together with them the launch of the 1st, any kind of agreement. and we're not for russia and iran, as well as the united states. they would as sitting on them, they would not have agreed. you throw the top, bought into that. you would have been no agreement. so it, we all will all looking for that magic thing that might have worked if only we done that in that same brain, there was no way in which the now,

tory is warlords, were going to sit down with the people who, when they had as far as they were concerned, defeated. so i, yes, it's really never was a moment. the united one last thing. ok. and i did stage. remember george bush made a great deal of the fact we're not there for nation building. he wanted to pull out as quickly as possible because your rock is what he was on his mind. and that was the whole point of another another. another. another mistake, okay, i mean, scott, i mean again, the reason why i ask this question about what's happening now moving forward because there's a moral hazard issue out there. if the government and couple know is american error power is going to be out there and they can call upon it. and of course will be people in the pentagon to be more than willing to do that. because raytheon and everybody else, you know, they get, get to get paid to. i mean, the moral hazard thing really bothers me because i visited couple. i talked to

officials about corruption and you know, was always about the degree of it. everyone agreed that it's there. and, and so you know, there's this moral hazard slippery slope issue here. that's why i keep asking, and we really, really leaving, leaving. go ahead, scott, well, i mean, we need to understand it while we were in afghanistan and we had air power based in afghanistan. we had the ability to search more air power from aircraft carriers . busy or maybe and see, and from bases in the, in the middle east through got you see any airspace there was permissive. right now we're talking about a situation where there will be no american aircraft based in afghanistan. everything has to come from abroad, which complicates the delivery of munitions greatly in terms of a timeliness factor. and in terms of a sustainability factor. so anybody who understands if we didn't win the war when we had everything going for us from an airpower perspective. and suddenly things

that were going to somehow, with our finger on the scale of an outcome with this ridiculous concept of surgeon air power from, from the, from, from the gulf region, doesn't understand how air power works. we've lost its over. it's done a will be no cavalry riding to the rescue. busy the air bar will not ship this thing when the last american troops leave. when the last foreign troops leave, we're talking about a survival factor of weeks, maybe months, but at the end of the day, the collapse of the couple government will be as rapid and decisive as the collapse of the south vietnamese government. between march and april of 975. that's just the reality. it's got, you'll be much surprised. that's what the name of this program is. it's saigon in afghanistan. let's go to our guest in couple. how do you think, how do you think about the prospect of the government collapsing over the next few

months? because it seems like almost inevitably it was there propped up because of us power and money. if we leased the power drives up, i don't know about the money because, you know, we've heard these politicians say they'll continue to support it. but i think the saigon analogy is really good. i mean, can remember very well scott, you probably well as well. and marvin, of course, the debate, you know, should they continue funding on south vietnam and cambodia and even the congress said, no, it's over, it's over here. so let's go back to a couple here. how are you thinking about the collab potential collapse of the government in kabul? you know, the cognitive government, the government did not collapse after 989 when the situation was much worse than it is in a situation was much worse than what we have worked right now. and the jeep resumes, survived with a very little support from the struggle struggling moscow,

which had so many grown the issues. the situation is much different than at that time right now. so that is one thing that you have to keep in mind. secondly, the other one says, you know, the, this, the thinking of collapse comes from the mindset that the caliber have, people know a certain district and certain parts of the country and they might be marching forward. but then look at the last week or last 10 days. confrontations, there has been a lot of clearance of the 80 as from the taliban president. so the one forces have been able to stand up for the challenge and keep the taliban at base. what i want to emphasize here, any war of any scale is going to cause destruction careless for any country, even for a very, very sector strong can be forget about the federal state like a lot of sun. but the way it is really the peace process to succeed any, any level of insurgency, continuation of warfare is going to try to stability of a lot of them. there is no doubt. and i believe that the only way out for us is the

peace process to succeed. so instead of really counting the months and days, let's think of the possibility of the peace process to proceed. hey, let me jump on. well then that, that just given us the hope for tuition of the peace process. okay, we're almost out of time you're marvin, i'll give you the last 30 seconds. go ahead. i'm a little bit more pessimistic that we're struggling with. i don't think there is a piece process, but that to tell him i have to are convinced that they were on the verge of a military victory. the united states is not the loser here. the loser in south gaston and see i got people and i think we have to keep that in mind. united states will go on without done, although we will have replications. it's looking all the parts of the world to invest a military lee. and in other ways,

so if we ask on people who are going to suffer here, and that's the tragedy that well, we can all agree on this panel. it is a tragedy here many thanks them, i guess in washington del mar, and in kabul. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at r t c you next time and remember the ah, well american crazy friend party in afghanistan is over 20 years, leaving behind quite a man the families that up with the market to get i took, marking your function you would like to get some more

worried show me what to do. i don't know whether you got that limit and i wanted them off. you're gonna be skills that you don't know what's going to bother me unless i get upset with me and our military mission against them will conclude on august 31st were ending

america's longest war. what sounds good to us, all the quote unquote. a young girl who will be on the roof for much. you got to be southern company goodness, the cut cut all the way. okay. that was the quote in the last minute. very good. this was the right weapon against the right hand corner. nobody bombarded through z o o z the signing of the us to all about agreement. he laid the groundwork for the road ahead toward a lasting peace in afghan. the stand on that mcdonald ah.