cells to be to blame for not being blown to bits by a pentagon, as a nation drone. why, why is this not as it's eric? well, because i'm here, i can quote, the end to graph enforced always used in his novels. only connect that if you're able to connect things together a bit, make better sense of them, your much more likely to make good decisions about what to do. you know, there's a wonderful anecdote about the great for the steven weinberg nobel prize winning physicist who, when ronald reagan was contemplating pushing anti ballistic missiles up in space. you may remember that kind of defense that was installed on satellites. weinberg said it doesn't bother me. the president reagan doesn't know any science, but it doesn't bother me if he doesn't know any philosophy and history. and of course, the point was precisely that if you don't have context, don't put scientific development into context or then see how science is changing history. if you don't do that 2 way,

joining up then you're going to get into trouble. well, little known fact and i was cradled on the enforced his knee. that's how old i am, pretty we're. but i, i do the, with the quote from using which you don't use in the book when he said, i, maybe it's apocryphal, that all he saw himself was finding a smooth pebble or a pretty shell, the great ocean of truth before him. central to this book is one that the more we know, the less we know. yes, i mean, it's really very striking facts about the history of knowledge, if you like, about until the beginning of modern times that is in the 16th century people fault as an increase of knowledge meant diminishment of ignorance. morning you the last few weeks are involved in play. one day we will know everything. we will not understand everything. we have a complete picture of the universe and we will have a grip on the truth. and of course, this is inspired by the model of knowledge, truth and certainty,

which is provided by the great religions because the great petition say that they have the final place story about everything. but what's happened since the scientific revolution, many of the 17th century and everything is funded for matches. at the more we discover, the more we find out, the more knowledge we accumulate, the more questions are prompted. and it's been like occupy an island which is growing in the ocean and the big in the i didn't get the longer the shoreline of ignorance becomes. and we realized more and more and more how little we know give you one very striking example of that. if you think of the enormous explosion of scientific knowledge, particle physics, quantum theory at one end of the scale, cosmetology at the other end of the scale, our understanding of the universe just in the last 100 years, huge explosion of knowledge about that. and what is the torture? it's torture. we have access to less than 5 percent of the mass density of the universe. less than 5 percent. the physical reality is accessible to to be

investigation more than 95 percent of it didn't matter. doc, energy. no idea what it is, we can see some of its effects, but we don't know what it is. and so this is a beautiful example of how the more we know the more we realize the last minute. but of course, those who are religious around the world and you've had spectacular debates with their and maybe maybe actual clergymen, i will say, you know, ever since a counselor nicely or whatever. they always said the bible or the koran nature in later centuries. the, these are not the true the, the, they open up questions and then there's a huge amount of ecumenical debate. is it really that me the 5 percent was is the 95 percent dog matter? isn't that comparable to the divinity of christ and whether he is 3 people and so on. well, and the easiest thing in the world is to get mad in the swamps of controversy here

. but you do have to remember that even at the bay go on to the boston age 1617 century church, the catholic church, this area was quite literally pushing people to death for love, excepting the literal truth of scripture. and you may remember that galileo was put on trial for saying that the mood flies around the sun, and he had to deny it in order to save his life. so i mean, to extent under age, the old idea that the truth about things that the complete picture was available to us in our traditions. that was the thing that was revolutionized really by the rise of science and philosophy. and in the early modern period, we different world now, which is the inheritor of that very healthy kind of skepticism inquiry, asking questions, probing not carrying desires to believe, to the world and looking for ways of justifying them. but taking up curiosity to

the world and finding out what tells us about it itself. but of course someone say that those were catholic elite that were prosecuting galileo catholic elite. they were sending the message out nowadays people say the science funding, obviously. and you do broach the topic is the elite being skewed towards elite again, is there that much of a change that we have? it's changing the way science is invested in. and of course, over time we've had, i know, class of managers in this book as well, i should say, well, i think there's a huge difference between the people who take leaving roles and scientific work and, and discovery. and people who occupy hierarchies and religious traditions. and the big difference is that in the science hierarchy, if there is such a thing, the idea of critical skepticism, the idea of challenging people's results of demanding, if they be replicated,

complicates of different labs. for example, checking on the results of all the lapse of the great competition there is to get the answer right and get to get that settled. that is very healthy aspect of the way that science develops. it develops to this tremendous dialectic, if you like, of, of, of criticism, investigation of scrutiny of results. and that is something which is very difficult to do if you, in a tradition where you have a set of received truths. and the virtue is to believe them accept them, list by them. so very, very different kind of mindset. i mean, i know everyone relies on quantum mechanics for their mobile phones and the positioning and einstein's theories. but i mean, is it really replication no one at school? if they get the experiment and they come up with a different value for the percentage of oxygen or something in some experiment is going to go. we've got, we've disproved

a huge amount and with the higgs both on its own. isn't it? if they hadn't found it, they would have just said, well, we'll keep looking for it. it's not that it doesn't exist, isn't there something on to logical about that? you know, i can tell you and interesting anecdotes about, say he's based on in connection robots. you just said that the really good friend of mine is one of the lead scientists on the children colanda. he was on the compact me on some experiment. that's one of the experiments of just looking for the haze itself. and when they announce that they were satisfied, they'd spotted it. this is in 2012 after a number of years of going over and over and over the results and being absolutely sure that they really got it right. i said, you must have a wonderful occasion. you must have felt so exhilarated and indeed the consequences offer for him personally. what grade she was knighted and you know, 100 tremendous metal and so forth. but he said to me, he said, oh yes, yes, yes, it was great on that day. but you know, wash, if we hadn't found it,

it would have been so exciting because it would have meant that there's a whole lot of different physics out there that we need to look for. now dispatch attitude is that we set to see that wonder that that, that 1st, that hunger for finding out more for digging into difficult mysteries of nature and the universe or of the cost for that matter or human nature. which is very distinctive of the very best enquiries, not just in natural science, but i think he story ends who look at antiquity and try to make sense of how things work for people. then people look at the brain and how it functions into human psychology. these are exhilarating, exhilarating inquiries, and you know, it's like opening christmas present. you're putting apostle because you don't know what's inside, but you do know that whatever is inside is going to be part of least of an answer to a question that you've got. and i should just say the range in this book,

physics, archaeology, neuroscience is. it's all this summarize in summarizing the field actually before we returned to the maybe the, the class elements and the what it means today. i'm just give you talk about ogre it in syria. i was, he normally series in the news because we have the british and united states backing against the assad government by give islamist and so on. meanwhile, on the ground in syria, in recent years, we discovered amazing things about the history of civilization. just tell me a little bit about that. yes, you know, it's a very striking folks for me about my grandfather and sell some elderly father said my father was born my grandfathers. i go and i was born at my problems quite old. so i'm able to say that my grandfather was at school in the 181718 eighty's seems sort of her stomach thing. and he would have known nothing of what we now know

about the past. because of all the discoveries made about syria and iraq about that . the 1st question of mr. pertaining the great civilizations that flourished the invention of writing the origin, the teacher, and so many technological advances, all that was actually known until the 2nd half of the 900 century. and we had to rochester, we had the books of the hebrew bible testament, as christians call it back or wrapped up in legend, we had home ma'am, but factors regardless as 70 legend grids as well. so before about the 8th, the 9th century d. c. the past was, if there was any sense of that at all, was just really racked in the midst of unknowing. but just on the origin of the middle east, from around about mid 900 century, has revealed to us quite literally, thousands of years of civilizational development in music contain, you know, also in reference civilization in this valley. the yellow river civilization of

china, learning much, much more about egypt and around civilization taking back 4000 years before rogers and the old testament. and that's pretty remarkable, is that only got a ball rolling, and the ball rolling was a discovery of the whole new period. so a new stone age and be development and sacraments and settled agriculture. and then of course, the discovery of human ancestors taking us by tens of thousands of years, hundreds of thousands, even indeed. now with the discovery of generations 6000000 years ago when the buried my earliest ancestors of the human 9. dai, but be of a chimp and geez, says in this a sparkling in the way in which time and the past has opened up so dramatically and so tremendously just very by recently transforming our view of ourselves and our

well. i mean, we're really in a way, i personally, you can see i binders. so fascinating, uncertain situation. and feel that if people had a sensor which they understood it would make them sense their own place in the universe rather different p. i mean, i'm not sure what they wore plain pilots were thinking when they were bombing these areas. the reason it has to be said as something that more in the front of knowledge after this, your break ah, the ah, ah.

the pacific leg around the world, expedition by 1000 miles round the clock and the dead cob. this done as soon as every country close by the crew. gavin's food and water and to go to chat. those also let me know i got everybody locked out or no food to

know about that. only give them up. sure. can somebody call me? especially in the coven, your living? like the theme in of home, but in the 21st century. welcome back. i'm still here with philosopher and public intellectual professor. ac grayling discussing his new work, the frontiers of knowledge. there will be some view is may be in the american south right now watching this and not taking they have ex nations against corona virus and so on. who will be subjected to a different version of history financed by particular interests. would you do? do? mentioned the book. what are the dangers of this as this amazing revolution and thought has been uncovered and discovered and invented the human mind. and human society is like geological strauser,

there's geological structure, they permission very apt to take quick, easy answers and superstitious views of the world down in the more or primitive layers of, of our understanding. and then increasing the cycle more questioning slightly more open or skeptical. and more rational, i think, and the concept of rationality is very important here because as i say in the book, if you look at the word rational, you see the 1st part of it is ratio, which means proportion. and so a rational belief is one which is proportional to the evidence you have for it, or the strength of the reasons that you then off before it and say that tends to be rather upper level of that you are eligible, stronger people. and society is in groups of in societies, find themselves to different levels of this geological laugh, which is why we have rockets figures in the moon now. and people used to read the

astrological forecasts. hearing 2021. so can i so surprising in a way that there is this kind of mixture and it's a mixture because history is always on the move, the past is always dying and the new has always been born if i remember correctly. and in fact, when i was, i'm thinking a bit about this interview today. i remember that you chose not to go off to your agreement the decade novels. i think you read that you chose, you're not from graham. she, i seen through a pool and we, she talks about how the old is died and then you is born. and in that middle period called in a kind of interregnum, there is complexity and difficulty this. this is problematic. the pressure is always problematic in that way. is recess, this mixture of the old and the new. so inter might want because, you know,

a traditional belief might use very, very modern means to carry out some act based on that traditional belief. and that's just the mixture that we're in at the moment. and it can sometimes be a very dangerous mixture. i mean, we don't go through breakfast again and there are complex breakfast here. argument and complex remain a human famously. but how is it that if, as you say, things become more and more spectral, in terms of our understanding of your questioning of the world and the universe has political, some elements of political theory appeared to get more certain certainly amongst maybe it's just to read your invocation of it, but certainly say rusher isn't bad, china's bad us as biden would say, change of it's, it's a trump thing x. but why is this questioning in intellectual circles accompanied the more certainty, arguably, amidst politicians. there is a very,

very direct relationship between increasing complexity and increasing simplicity or the propensity to reach for simple quick concepts and more complex things are. the more a lot of people are driven to look for something checkup, simple black and white. this is, you know, an example of how much is the critic just one dimension isn't like, you know, christian fundamentalism in the southern states and the u. s. fund meant that as many when can persist, it's because you can tell a person, anybody from dement team, it's doctrines and plans of any of the major religions in less than half an hour. but it takes a bit longer than that to understand physics. and this is a really good example of how if understanding of the world is increasingly complex, there's a lot to know a lot to understand when people will reach for the simple answers to human beings

like a clear story appear beginning, middle, and then, and lots of explanation that makes sense and want to have something that they belong to. and the simple answer is the one that you you reach for when you start creating, getting lost in the complex, in politics that happens as well. so, you know, if you think of a system like the one in the u. k, which like canada and united states of america and india or have the 1st 13 system . this is a terrible, terrible verging system because car from being made and then the traffic is going to provide for minority based government. it also means that you can get to political conscious and new level get could arise ation. you get a, you know, 10 kind of position to use that results and slogans. and in simplistic arguments, you don't get didn't get people trying to compromise or cheryl work together. but you get division b. c. i said it's most dramatic in the united states where the divide between the

republican party and the big democratic party is so busy and so deep as to be frightening. and we have seen it at its way worse than the trunk. yes. that. so in the case of something like, it's not going to be covered, any neutral about breast it and tell you that i think it's disastrous. i'd be pretty politic, 7000 years in the case. and then we'll see a phenomenon which is in terms impact on the idea that but if people worried about all sorts of things in their lives, you can find one simple wouldn't be putative explanation for it. blame it on the, on the you said back sovereignty and socrates problems out the ways one if you can do that. and if you can use these incredible new techniques of communication because i think social media, the internet, what's happened and google and facebook and so on. have been very, very malign influences on politics, but great from the things by the way,

the rates are the sort of democratic agra conversation, people sharing news and views and putting people in touch with one another. yes, there are also really bad aspects of them because you can micro target people with false messages that people can't see and call out. i don't show of a direct him for elections. i'll give you for that. but then it, forrest johnson, or donald trump, maybe in 2024. i mean, maybe the rent, they read the book and they would come out with the alarming idea that they're on the right path. because this questioning of knowledge accompanies seeking for simplicity. so you'd be there going obviously i don't agree with it, but johnson get more union. jack's get flags round. you have more simple messages. people are looking for answers and this is a good political maggy valley and strategy is matthew madden strategy which evidence has worked in recent years. yes. you can trace rounds what you've just

said. i'm telling you wrong center. wrote out more flags. i'll be telling everybody else to watch their backs when johnson spelled out more flags because he's trying to do them. so, you know, that really is a message that what we want to be, what we want to be doing. and this is a point that i wrote the book for talking been talking point is we should make ourselves literature across the fields in an inquiry and in particular. so then we can make ourselves better at thinking clearly critically and evaluation. what people claim people change in their business, we can make some connections. we can see across the landscape of understanding about doesn't mean that we have to become part of the system where we become ancient historians or anything. but will they, each of us needs. of course, and especially that we need to know the skill in life definitely and our careers.

we should also have this general literacy and i think occasionally all of the thrust about education systems. thank you. that's just them in the u. k. we start to specialize after the age of 16, after you redo few subjects available and you might be one subject to university. and this is not great. and the old model, the one which is kind of been chips away as are locked in the us is that you provider, general education. and then people specialize on the basis of their interests and talents afterwards. but if you, if you specialize too early people, new site of the context of the wider and landscape of things into which what they do and that's, i think is in pounds. it's any part of a complicated story of this day. i talk, you talk to the pastor, this, this type of culture debate and c p though is alive and well, it hasn't changed. i mean, i was talking about history. you usual at christopher hill who's i'll give you

a marginalized figure of the great marxist historian at oxford. i mean, i was taught, there was a civil war here. he talked about the english revolution. is that an example of the kind of way history is skewed? it's a very good example of the difference between revisionism and a bad, plunging history like holocaust deniers that say and thinking about the power in much more exact and creative ways to try to make sense of it. looking at you can, you know, from the point of view, different frameworks and workers to be hill's dad, i think in a really significant is that he noticed that if you put the english civil war, what happened was that charles fast and parliament and the rest into this longer contracts with european history,

you see it is the 1st one of the great revolutions. so we think of the french revolution, american revolution, we think that they both match the bolshevik revolution. and indeed the revolutions and forks as well that the enlightenment represents. and you see this as part very, very significant and instructive process. so he was able to put it into context, which makes us see it a fresh and interesting the fresh using this perspective that a marxist interpretation of history office that's very valuable. i thank you. in the book as a, as a way of showing how revisionism in history, that issue revising our understanding of something is different from historical denial and can be used to inform us much, much more sensitively about things. another example i use, of course, is feel shalean session when the cyclist came with, you know, after captain cook,

back at the end of 18th century, they were guarded australian as well, sometimes called and tara, and maria's an empty land. you can just take it a step of the, for the taking and it's only very recently, some historians and australia have said i on, you know, it was land with many, many different kinds of people living image. and in fact, it was an invasion that wasn't a settlement and it was of a violent one because there was a long drawn out war between the sexes and the aborigines, which only very recently ended. now that is a way of revising our view of history, understanding things different be and trying to do something better now and in future on the basis of that better understand. and in this dichotomy between revisionism and denial, ism is boris johnson. on the denial list side, well, i don't know what johnson's views about history. i have a very, very, be sinking feeling about his views of the present to say, well,

he does, he does. but i think if i may be frank and rude at the same time about it, i think it's bigger see which model himself on church in some way. and so he's, he's a kind of, well the shallow official version of churchill. whereas i run a deeper view of church show who has many characteristics which we can do. my for example, is covered in this during the 2nd war. and prior to it for decade after decade, he was regarded quite rightly bye initiatives, contemporaries as an absolute boss to it, is some different because he was so unreliable, politically, switch sides and etc. so maybe bar simpson has some similarity to him in that respect for present grayling thank you. thank you very much. that's it for one of your favorite episodes of the season will be back on september the 8th for a brand new season. still uncovering the stories buried by the so called mainstream media until then keep in touch,

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