battle has done to him, i feel like life might be coming to an end. we are in a conflict situation with the largest and most powerful employer in such a situation. it's remarkable to survive. i the ah, welcome to so because visionaries me sophie shepherd, not say today's guest needs no introduction for me, but after virtual world becomes as good as the one the video games industry is poised to transform entertainment education, social relations. and to talk about this, i'm joined by legendary game designer and programmer, john romero,

john romero, award winning game designer, programmer. i'd say legend, welcome. great to have you on our show today. hi. hi, thanks for having here. right, so the video game, money wise, right, seems to be the king of an attain ma'am. it's out selling everything. music movie industry is in america, at least, and there were some ears yet, like the general public's view of the video game still seems to be as like time wasters for geeks. why is that? i mean, are missing something important behind the stereotype. i'm saying that's probably just older people who think that because everybody who has a phone is playing games on it usually you know like you, you can see everybody around you like playing around doing stuff, stuff on their phone. the. the mobile industry is massive for a reason that's because people are playing games on their phones. and the funny thing is anybody who thinks that you know, games or waste, you know, do they,

do they play baseball or watch baseball or watch football or basketball? you know, any, any of those sports, those are games to play chess checkers who play board games cards. you know, you name it are all games people do play games. i don't know of the many people who don't play some form of game. yeah. but you know, you're, you're absolutely right. that's the stereotype of the older people who have this opinion. but i guess i can review because i had this conversation with, with my grandma before i was like getting ready for the interview. and she, she, you know, she, she, she things like, yeah, of course we play games because i have the exact same argument like she loves to play chess. she thinks is like the best thing for her brain. i was like, well, what was different? she's like, well, chess kind of like develop my brain and makes it elastic. when you were glued to your phone, it makes you dumb. i don't know what it, i didn't know what to say to her, to be quite honest. can you have something to say to her?

all depends on what you're doing on your phone. you know, if not, if you do it on your phone doesn't require you to think much. then maybe just be like passive consumption of media, you know, versus people who are playing games, having to make strategic decisions constantly. you know, or are trying to solve a puzzle. you know, like, think you mathematically, there are so many games that require all different kinds of thinking that are not just passive media consumption, you know, which is like tick, tock and youtube and stuff like that. but a lot of the, you know, in, in, you know, that also i wouldn't say is making people dumb. it's just like how do you choose to spend your time if you choose to spend your time entertaining yourself. how do you want to entertain yourself? well, you can watch you to play a game. you can do real and you can read, you know, like you can do whatever you want to your time. however, you want to spend it, it's kind of up to you. so, you know, like,

people all make different the different choices with how they spend their time. i me the age of an average gamer, it's not 16 anymore. i completely agree. it's actually closer to 35. how have that happened? once again, like the stereotype is, adults are supposed to have stuff to do. why do they have times to sit around and play games in their phones or whatever? well, the games have such a high production values nowadays that they're becoming attracted to people who, who look bit like tv is being like a valid form of entertainment. there's a valid form of, of, of something that they should put their valuable attention towards. and when the meet the production values of games really, you know, got, got really high quality over the past, you know, say 15 years then, and also games becoming more mainstream. the designs not becoming the designs

not being made solely for super experts in games, but the, the, the math casual audience like games that are made for the mass casual audience who have a lower literacy than people who are like hardcore shooter players. you know, hidden object games, adventure games, you know, story based, narrative games, civil puzzle, games, that kind of stuff like everybody can play those things when they're really fun. you know, like when you're watching, you're watching a show on tv. you're watching them a story, you know, like when you play manero game instead, if you want actually control yourself in the game and sort of passively watching it . so i think that those, the new, the new designs of games has attracted more of a mass audience to games. and that's why the age level goes up. like they're the ones actually with all the money, right? everybody there, you know, you're buying, you're buying games for your kids, you know, who are, who are under 18. the ones are the money or actually the,

the older demographic. and when i was making facebook games, the number one demographic. facebook was a 43 year old woman that was who people needed to make games for because they are the ones who are on facebook and better socializing. they're connecting with people . and they wanna play game where they can socialize and connect with their friends or other people and gain any kind of advantage or something, something extra in the game through that. and that's why, you know, face game got so big was, was through the demographic that was, that was playing games. and i'm day like the entertainment of hollywood. it follows like a certain formula, right? you, as a spectator, you are drawn into the narrative where you emphasize with a heroes. they go through some trouble, they get through it to film delivers a catharsis in the and it's like a straight line experience. and then it's kind of like no matter what you feel good

at the end with video games, it's different. it works differently. what is the source of pleasure there? what like hot buttons of our psychology? do they push all different games? push all different kinds of buttons because they're not the same. like no, none of these games are the same. that are a lot of games that people love. that are story based games that have crazy, imaginative environments that are telling a really unique story through the environment. and at the end, you're crying because it's just what a story totally different than a shooter where, you know, everybody is jumping out of a plane pair, shooting down at some crazy speed to just land in an environment and start moving each other down in and grabbing grabbing gear out of houses that are all over the place, a completely different games that give people completely different you know,

i guess entertainment, you know, like some people like a certain type of entertainment in the games or something. there's such a wide, just a huge amount or john was out there that are always pushing the boundaries that the people who are into something, they have a game for them already. if you, if you can't find the game out there that you're interested in, look at in the games, because that's where all of the imagination and the experimentation is taking place . and the best part of those games are being pulled into mainstream. but yes, it's everything is out there. you just gotta look for it. there's a lot of people who, you know, anyone that thinks a specific way about games, like negatively about them hasn't explored, was actually out there in games. and i think that would be really amazed when they did look and just like the best or whatever games of 2021. and i'd like to listen just watching videos on youtube. you know, they'll be like, oh wow,

i really want to play that. because you the only know when you actually watch videos and like kind of go a little bit deeper or even are exposed to the idea of something i never heard of before. so it's really discoverability, you know, as always is the number one thing out there. do you think there is a place for genuine noncommercial art in video games and kenneth video game that is trying to do are be massively successful? well, it's funny because the, the definition of video games as art is, is one that because it's been around for a long time. and i truly believe that games are like the ultimate art medium. the, it's not like a single painter painting something or a single person creating something. it's a group of people that have to do very intricate different

intricate jobs at a really high level to create an experience that is not guaranteed to be interesting. and it takes a lot of time to actually make something interesting out of all of these people and ideas and expertise, shipping and shipping, the game is extremely hard to do, you know, and that is an art form. there is an art to coming up with those designs. there's an art to like, even programming, any of that stuff like the programmers do not have a template where like, oh, i have to, you know, i have to take a life away for this thing or the scanner just going to double jump over here. the way that you program that is always solved in a completely different way for every programmer who's going to write it. so it's like an artist to thinking about like what they're going to put on the canvas right now and how they get around the campus. and halligan, move their arm when they do it. it's exactly the same way that programmers and artists work in video game. so you gotta solve this,

this problem in the way that they are medium allows and they have to do it extremely creatively. and in a way that produces a really great result. and at the end of it, you have this big game that, you know, some games nowadays are made from thousands of people working together like 3500 people working on a game together at multiple companies. and when it comes out, you know, it looks great. it's, it's like saying a movie isn't, isn't heart, you know? and he looked at the credit list of a movie that's like a major movie. everybody loves it. there are hundreds, if not thousands of people listed the credits for half an hour or an hour of scrolling credits. those people who are trading are, you know, it's is, is, it is artistic to put the stuff together is not guaranteed to be good. it is hard to do and in a lot of people like living in these spaces that we create because to them there's

a connection. you know, like when people stand in front of a pain in they try and feel the connection. they're trying to get it. you get it when you're and again, you feel a connection. you. i know people who lived in, in world that i've created, they've gotten married, they've met together and these worlds and, you know, kids and everything in these worlds because to them it's, it's as real as the real world. and you know, i mean, you really like just asking for me to ask the, the following question, because about living in a real world and a virtual, i mean, the big part of the video game appeal is that they make you feel that you're better at game live that you are real life, right? you master the game, then you beat it level after level and it's clear, you know what's good and what's not and you get better and then you win. i mean, it is much easier than in life, really. and even if it's true, that one is better at a game that in live, do you think that it is more there are

a patty for people, or is it kind of running away from reward prague problems to solve? well, you know, playing the game is like an escape, you know, it's like you're going to escape into another reality. and that is for a lot of people, that is the reality that they love more than their actual reality. or, you know, if you like their actual reality even more, or maybe they're not playing games that much. but you know, having, having ultimate realities to experience or even live in like a world warcraft idea. you know, especially during the pandemic where he couldn't go anywhere in the game world, go everywhere, you know, choose the game that you want. any open world game, choose it, and you are now on a vacation in a place where you're like flying helicopters or you're, you're on beaches, you're, you're in a city driving. what are car you want? you know, you name it these, these are getaways and their, their vacations. they are giving you the opportunity to do something that you will

never ever be able to do in real life. if you've ever played a, an instance, or rate and world of warcraft, or you're working with 25 other people to try to take down massive characters that you will never see in real life ever. and do it in a choreographed way that you have to learn. and if somebody doesn't do it right, the entire 25 group of people will all basically have to start over because somebody failed in their job. and how everybody has to depend on each other, like the user, this is teaching, a lot of thing is teaching teamwork is teaching. how you know if teaching people how to do a lot of things that may relate in the real world in some ways. but you know, but on the whole, it's just this great place to be that lets you do things. you could never do and experience things that you could never experience. and we are very close right now

to being able to actually talk to a characters in a game and have those characters reply back in ways. no 2 people will hear in a game. i can ask an a i something about has nothing to do with the game, but i can ask him a character or something and they'll respond to me and answer me with a, with a response that no one else will probably get when they play the game and, and that's what a i, as is in machine learning is starting to do in games that were actually able to play with characters psychics and talk to them like you would talk to anybody that you're on an adventure with and have an actual conversation and get information and you know, when that starts happening and that starts getting really good then. then you'll see how many people are actually living in games when they have a but they feel closer to the people that are in the games and they do in real life . but you know, that's on its way right now, john, we're going to take

a short break right now. when we're back, we'll be talking to a legend, john romero, award winning game designer and programmer, stay with the oh, the drug started as a way to come back. a great problem. what's the warranty? it's part of the attitude of the nation, not just of north dakota, and it got to be something that you could get elected. this time, the fight against drugs took a tragic, told us that andrew was competing short form. this is way too dangerous for him to be doing. clearly they put him in harm's way. a rural college

student does interest get shot in the head and found in a river like that. something else had to be happening. i look forward to talking to you all that technology should work for people. a robot must obey the orders given it by human beings, except when the short or conflict with the 1st law show your identification. we should be very careful about artificial intelligence. the point obviously is to great track, rather than fear i would take on various jobs with artificial intelligence, real, somebody with demon a robot must protect its own existence with

the the now we're back with john romero, legendary and award winning game designer and programmer, john, what do you think about the education aspect and potential of video games and for instance, i read that way back when the federal budget balancing committee had like an idea about developing a game. it will teach americans how to balance the federal budget. i mean, does that have been felt like one, i mean, in general, do you think that video games can really carry meaningful education weight or trying to do that kind of takes the whole point out of them, which is fun. there's a lot of ways that games can teach education there's, there's, it's, it's such a huge topic. it's such a huge area that is now like starting to grow games and even v

r is being used to help people in therapy. you know, that have or have been burn victims or people that are trying to recover from strokes. you know, there are so many types of games that can educate. there are no mainstream big games that educate as like a supplement to going to school like like say a game where you're focusing on doing something. it's really fun. and one of the fun things that you can do in the game is something that is actually exposing you to math concepts that actually makes you feel like, oh, i like to saw these things are, these are really fun. and the fact that you are actually able to solve those things as a kid, if you're playing this game, the way that you're solving them makes you think in a certain pattern. and when you're in school, in your math class,

and you encounter this type of this type of problem, but you've solved it in a different way with a different different representation and a game, and you're solving in real life, you're like, oh, this is like that game you know, this is cool, i know how to do this already. you know, and so as a kid, you feel like you actually, this game is really useful to me. this is really this. i didn't even know i could do this some analysis math because teach me how to do this and you'll answer it and you like it. and now, because you expose kids to math concepts and again, that makes it easier for them to learn math and real life. you've now have somebody who might be on the path through a stem career at some point where math is a gateway to success. and you might have somebody who is really interested in that now because it's not harder scary anymore. and so games for education has, there's a lot of promise for that. that's the way to get kids excited about games and

education together where they don't even know that they're being educated. but they, they like the rubbers, you know, a history, a history game where there is going to be, or no narrative game about history. where a kid is playing a narrative game, they didn't know that they were just learning this thing from history. and then they know the whole thing. then remember the story cuz it was so engaging. so yeah, it's educating games is going to be a huge thing in the future. yeah, there is a movement in the performing arts that is playing with inter activity immersive theater role playing real live quest seems like some people are really trying to port video games elements into other mediums into real life. is this kind of video game influence on other aspects. so our lives going to actually grow and if yes, in what forms, what do you think? yeah, i mean, it's called gamification and there's a lot of that happening because there are a lot of opportunities to make things that may be mundane, more fun like it,

even shopping, going shopping somewhere. you know, a lot of retailers are trying to figure out how can the game of fi, the shopping experience that it's not just a simple reward coupon type thing. how can, how can i make it? how can, how can i make it a game that gets people to come back over and over again? and how do we get them to download our app on the, on their phone and use it in the store, maybe hunt down stuff you know? or like make turn that turn the retail space into part of the game that's on the app and, and make, make them their store like something that people will remember because they did this experience in their store and they want to go back and do it again. there's a lot of ways that, that just just, you know, businesses are trying to figure out how to game of 5 things that don't. they have never been game

a 5 before that because people are so used to playing games that it's easier for them to get into than it would have been 20 years ago. he's like a reverse question. what do you think? will video games never be able to do to the consumer? is there an experience that you think video game cannot deliver by design? i don't know about that. you know, like if somebody is blind, maybe games like i'll let them see. i don't think maybe there's a way that somebody can figure out in the future, but really, i think the games can do basically anything, especially when they're paired with a real world technology and real world device. you know, like our phones are the one thing reaching into the real world, from a computer or a console or whatever or the internet games you can do basically anything that, that people want to want to want to do like people are always thinking of new ways

of engaging people in a new world or in a new activity. so i don't, i can't really think of anything that people won't want to do that again, can't deliver. that's, you know, whether it's virtual or it's tied to with real world stuff. you know, i've heard that artificial intelligence is being develop that will actually learn not only how to be a game changer, but how to design games themselves. do thing this a viable way forward for video games and, you know, will that put people like you out of business? eventually there's a lot of work on using ai and machine learning to create parts of games. and the nice thing about that is that that basically means maybe the dev team isn't as big because there's

a i that's doing of the bulk of the, of the work. but there's also like the a, i don't know what to do if someone's not telling them what to do. and you, if there is an a i that people are using to say generate low designs. there's an a that's used to generate global designs. and there's a, there's a piece of, there's a, a c, the feed to it, to learn a certain type of level design. so, so everyone's game isn't the same, like, because if, if the game is become the same, don't want to use that a, i anymore, right? because looks like, oh, it's using that a i that generated level, i'm done with this game. so there's, there has to be differentiation. if you're going to use an ai, that means that you have to teach it a certain way. that means you have to have something that's really different teach and those are not can be done by other eyes. they have to be done by a person who has a vision for a game. and in, in a place that you want the game to take place and,

and those things will need to be done by designers, you know, and there could be at some point, instead of a team of people building these level, do you have a team of people building the teaching tools for the a i to generate the amazing stuff. because if you're going to, you know, in the future, if you're going to play a game that like people are going to jump into it and they're going to see a brand new level. every time that they jump into the game, you're going to need a team of people who are not building levels, but they're building a teaching data to feed to the engine that then generates a level, right? so there's always somebody was going to have to be dev team using these advanced tools to, to get the output that they're looking for. so it's not like they'll, you'll be replacing low designers as well. designers will probably step up and become a designers. and so there'll be new jobs for people of john deere. thank you so much for this wonderful insight into the world of video games. it's been

a delight talking to you. thank you. good luck with everything. thanks. the september the 11th 2001 day that reshaped the modern world i remember watching the world trade center bird on a tv at the cia, and i was standing there like this just looking at it. and a colleague of mine was standing next to me and he said, my god, did they have any idea what they've done? we're going to kill everybody. now. everybody live tv images promote the us into

declaring it's war on terror. they've begun to bomb up. can villages and holmes and get people hurt and, and kill.