the the the, the, the the ah, welcome to go because visionaries, me so the chevron not say, today's gas needs no introduction for me. but after virtual world becomes as good as the one, the video games industry boys to choose, form, entertainment, education, social relations. and to talk about this, i'm joined by legendary game designer and programmer, john romero, john romero, award winning game designer, programmer. i'd say legend,

welcome. great to have you on our show today. hi. hi, thanks for having here. right, so the video game, money wise, right, seems to be the king of entertainment. it's out selling everything. music movie industry is in america, at least. and there were some errors. yet like the general public's view of video games still seems to be like time wasters for geeks. why is that? i mean, i'm missing something important behind a stereotype. i'm saying that's probably just older people who think that because everybody who has a phone is playing games on it easily. you know, like you, you can see everybody around you like playing around doing stuff, stuff on their phone. the. the mobile industry is massive for a reason that's because people are playing games on their phones. and the funny thing is anybody who thinks that you know, games or waste, you know, do they, do they play baseball or watch baseball or watch football or basketball?

you know, any, any of those sports, those are games to play chess checkers, play board games cards. you know, you name it or all games. people do play games. i don't know of the many people who don't play some form of game. yeah. but you know, you're, you're absolutely right. that's the stereotype of the older people who have this opinion. but i guess i can review because i had this conversation with, with my grandma before i was like getting ready for the interview. and she, she, you know, she, she, she, things like, yeah, of course we play games because i have the exact same argument like she loves to play chess. she thinks is like the best thing for her brain like, well, what was different? she's like, well, chess kind of like developed my brain and makes it elastic. when you go to your phone, it makes you dumb. i don't know what it, i didn't know what to say to her. to be quite honest. can you have something to say to her? all depends on what you're doing on your phone. you know,

what you're doing on your phone doesn't require you to think much. then maybe just be like this path of consumption of media, you know, versus people who are playing games, having to make strategic decisions constantly. you know, or are trying to solve a puzzle, you know, like thinking mathematically, there are so many games that require all different kinds of thinking that are not just passive media consumption, you know, which is like tick tock and youtube and stuff like that. but a lot of the in, you know, that also i wouldn't say is making people dumb. it's just, you know, like how do you choose to spend your time? if you choose to spend your time entertaining yourself? how do you want to entertain yourself? well, you can watch you to, you play a game, you can do, you know, when you read the, you know, like you can do whatever you want here time. however you want to spend, it is kind of up to you. so, you know, like, people all make different different choices with how they spend their time. i me

the age of an average gamer, it is not 16 anymore. i completely agree. it's actually closer to 35. how have that happened? once again, like the stereotype is, adults are supposed to have stuff to do. why do they have times to sit around and play games in their phones or wherever? well, the games have such a high production values nowadays that are becoming attracted to people who, who will look bit like, you know, tv is being like a valid form of entertainment that a valid form of, of, of something that they should put their valuable attention towards and when the meet the production values of games really got, got really high quality over the past, you know, say 15 years then, and also games becoming more mainstream. the designs not becoming the designs not being made solely for super experts in games. but the, the,

the mass casual audience like games that are made for the mass, casual audience who have a lower literacy than people who are like hardcore shooter players. you know, in object games, adventure games, you know, story based, narrative games, civil puzzle games, that kind of stuff like everybody can play those things. the really fun you know, like when you're watching, you're watching a show on tv. you're watching them a story. you know, it's like, well, you could play manero game instead if you want actually control yourself in the game and sort of passively watching it. so i think that those, the new, the new designs of games has attracted more of a math audience to games. and that's why the age level goes up, like they're the ones actually with all the money, right? everybody there, you know, you're buying, you're buying games for your kids, you know, who are, who are under 18, the ones or the money, or actually the,

the older demographic. and when i was making facebook games, the number one demographic. facebook was a 43 year old woman that was who people needed to make games for because they're the ones who are on facebook and they're socializing, they're connecting with people. and they want to play where they can socialize and connect with their friends or other people, and gain any kind of advantage or something, something extra in game through that. and that's why, you know, face game got so big was, was through the demographic that was, that was playing games. and i'm gay, like the entertainment of hollywood. it follows like a certain formula, right? you, as a spectator, you are drawn into the narrative where you emphasize with a heroes. they go through some trouble, they get through it to film delivers a catharsis in the and it's like a straight line experience. and then it's kind of like no matter what you feel good

at the end with video games, it's different. it works differently. what is the source of pleasure there? what like hot buttons of our psychology? do they push all different games? push all different kinds of buttons because they're not the same. like no, none of these games are the same. there are a lot of games that people love that are story based games that have crazy, imaginative environments that are telling a really unique story to the environment. and at the end, you're crying just what a story totally different than a shooter where you know everybody is jumping out of a plane, parachuting down at some crazy speed to just landed an environment and start moving each other down. and grabbing, grabbing gear out of houses that are all over the place, like completely different games that give people completely different. you know,

i guess entertainment, you know, like some people like a certain type of entertainment in the games or so there's such a wide just a huge amount or john was out there that are always pushing the boundaries that the people who are into something they have a game for them already. if you, if you can't find the game out there that you're interested in, look at in the game is because that's where all of the imagination and the experimentation is taking place. and the best part of those games are being pulled into mainstream. but yes, it's, everything is out there. you just gotta look for there's a lot of people who, you know, anyone that thinks a specific way about games, like negatively about them hasn't explored, was actually out there in games. and i think that would be really amazed when they did look. and just like the best or whatever games of 2021. and like the list just watching videos on youtube. you know, they'll be like, oh wow,

i really want to play that. because you the only know when you actually watch the videos and like kind of go a little bit deeper or even are exposed to the idea of something that you never heard of before. so it's really discoverability, you know, as always is, does the number one thing out there didn't, there is a place for genuine, non commercial art in video games and can a video game that is trying to do art the last it was successful. well, it's funny because the, the definition of video games as art is, is one that knows it's been around for a long time. i truly believe that games are like the ultimate art medium. the, it's not like a single painter painting something or a single person creating something. it's a group of people that have to do very intricate different

intricate jobs at a really high level to create an experience that is not guaranteed to be interesting. and it takes a lot of time to actually make something interesting out of all of these people and ideas and expertise, shipping and shipping, the game is extremely hard to do, you know, and that is an art form. there is an art to coming up with those designs. there's an art to like, even programming, any of that stuff like, you know, the programmers do not have a template where like, oh, i have to, you know, i have to take a life away for this thing or this character is going to double jump over here the way that you program that is always solved in a completely different way for every programmer who's going to write it. so it's like an artist to thinking about what they're going to put on the canvas right now and how they get around the campus. and halligan, move their arm when they do it. it's exactly the same way that programmers and artists work in video game. so you gotta solve this, this problem in the way that,

that are medium allows and they have to do it extremely creatively. and in a way that produces a really great result. and at the end of it, you have this big game. you know, some games nowadays are made from thousands of people working together like 3500 people working on a game together at multiple companies. and when it comes out, you know, it looks great. it's, it's like saying a movie isn't, isn't art, you know, and he'd like credits list of a movie. that's like a major movie. everybody loves it. there are hundreds, if not thousands of people listed the credits for half an hour or an hour of scrolling credits. those people are trading are, you know, it's is, it is artistic to put the stuff together is not guaranteed to be good. it is hard to do and in a lot of people like living in these spaces that we create because to them there's

a connection. you know, like when people stand in front of a pain in they try and feel the connection. they're trying to get it. you get it when he earned. again, you feel a connection. you. i know people who lived in, in the world that i've created, they've gotten married. they've met together in these worlds and had, you know, kids and everything in these worlds because to them it's, it's as real as the real world. and you know, i mean, you really like just asking for me to ask the following question, because about leaving in the real world and a virtual, i mean the big part of the video game pale is that they make you feel that you're better at game live that you are real life, right? you master the game, then you beat it level after level and it's clear, you know what's good and what's not and you get better and then you win. i mean, it is much easier than in life, really. and even if it's true, that one is better at a game that live, do you think that it is more there

a patty for people, or is it kind of running away from reward prague problems to solve? well, you know, playing the game is like an escape, you know, like you're going to escape into another reality. and that is for a lot of people, that is the reality that they love more than their actual reality. or, you know, if they like their actual reality even more, or maybe they're not playing games that much. but you know, having, having alternate realities to experience or even live in like a world warcraft idea. you know, especially during a pandemic where you couldn't go anywhere in the game world, go everywhere, you know, choose the game that you want. any open roll game, choose it, and you are now on a vacation in a place where you're like flying helicopters or you're, you're on beaches, you're in a city drive, you know, what are car you want? you know, you name it these, these are getaways and that are their vacations. they are giving you the

opportunity to do something that you will never ever be able to do in real life. if you've ever played a, an instance or a raid in world warcraft, or you're working with 25 other people to try to take down massive characters that you will never see in real life ever. and do it in a choreographed way that you have to learn. and if somebody doesn't do it right, the entire 25 group of people will all basically have to start over because somebody failed in their job. and how everybody has to depend on each other, like the user, this is teaching, a lot of thing is teaching teamwork is teaching how you know it's teaching people how to do a lot of things that may relate in the real world in some ways. but you know, but on the whole, it's just this great place to be that lets you do things. you could never do and experience things that you could never experience. and we are very close right now to being able to actually talk to a characters in

a game and have those characters reply back in ways. know 2 people will here in the game. i can ask an a i something about has nothing to do with the game, but i can african a character something and they'll respond to me and answer me whether with a response that no one else will probably get when they play the game. and in that's what a i as is in machine learning is starting to do in games that were actually able to play with characters psychics and talk to them like you would talk to anybody that you're on an adventure with and have an actual conversation and get information and you know, when that starts happening and that starts getting really good then. then you'll see how many people are actually living in games when they have a they feel closer to the people that a i, as in the games and they do in real life. but you know, that's on its way right now. john, we're going to take a short break right now when we're back. we'll be talking to a legend, john romero,

award winning game designer and programmer. stay with the the the service play by a whole set of different rules. it's going to force us in your words to get mean 30 and nasty in order to take them on, right. we'll use all tools at our disposal to do so. my name is a monarch mattie, i'm the head with family members. can, can i? will they packed up and killed our children? and we will never forgive them to leave this place. i picked him i, what i did was doing, and they were bringing people in this torture site. i scanned ordering and abusing

them outside of the law and then allowing some of them to go back home and they would go home and tell people this is what the americans we know, look it up. it was a pointless exercise. i have often said transfer fee for the powerful receipt for the last bit cares about privacy. what people care about is power. juliana sons is become a symbol of the battles of brevity. information is power. that's what's going on. and the huge struggle with governments and corporations who want to keep information secret and others who think democratic rights should be pushed forward . and people have a right to know what to do. watch houses help shift the conversation around transparency. see what that battle has done to him. i feel like julian's life might

be coming to an end. we are in a conflict situation with the largest and most powerful employer in such a situation. it's remarkable. survive all the the ah ah, there we're back with john romero, legendary and award winning game designer and programmer, john, what do you thing about the education aspect and potential of video games and for instance, i read that way back when the federal budget balancing committee had like an idea about developing a game, it would teach americans how to balance the federal budget. i mean,

does that have been felt like one, i mean, in general, do you think that video games can really carry meaningful education weight or trying to do that kind of takes the whole point out of them, which is fun. there's a lot of ways the games can teach education there's, there's, it's, it's such a huge topic. it's such a huge area that is now like starting to grow games and even v r is being used to help people in therapy. you know, that, that have or have been burn victims or people that are trying to recover from strokes. you know, there are so many types of games that can educate. there are no mainstream big games that educate as like a supplement to going to school like like say a game where you're focusing on doing something. it's really fun. and one of the

fun things that you can do in the game is something that is actually exposing you to math concepts that actually makes you feel like, oh, i like to solve these things that these are really fun. and the fact that you are actually able to solve those things as a kid. let's say you're playing this game. the way that you're solving them makes you think in a certain pattern. and when you're in school, in your math class, and you encounter this type of this type of problem, but you've solved it in a different way with a different different representation and the game in your song. and in real life, you're like, oh, this is like that game. you know, this is cool. i know how to do this already. you know, and so as a kid, you feel like you actually, this game is really useful to me. this is really this. i didn't even know i could do this and now the math because teach me how to do this and you'll answer it and you like it. and now, because you expose kids to math concepts and again,

that makes it easier for them to learn math and real life. you've now have somebody who might be on the path through a stem career at some point where math is a gateway to success. and you might have somebody who is really interested in that now because it's not hard or scary anymore. and so games for education has, there's a lot of promise for that. that's the way to get kids excited about games and education together where they don't even know that they're being educated. but they, they like the rubbers, you know, a history, a history game where there is going to be no narrative game about history. where a kid is, is playing a narrative game and they didn't know that they were just learning this thing from history. and they know the whole thing because i remember the story cuz it was so engaging. so yeah, it's edge occasion and games is going to be a huge thing in the future. yeah, there is a movement in the performing arts that is playing with inter activity immersive theater role playing real live quest. things like some people are really trying to

port video games elements into other mediums into real life. is this kind of video game influence on other aspects. so our lives going to actually grow and if yes, in what forms, what do you think? yeah, i mean, it's called gamification and there's a lot of that happening because there are a lot of opportunities to make things that may be mundane, more fun, like even shopping, going shopping somewhere. you know, a lot of retailers are trying to figure out how can the game of fi, the shopping experience that is not just a simple reward coupon type thing. how can, how can they make it? how can, how can i make it a game that gives people to come back over and over again? and how do we get them to download our app on the, on their phone and use it in the store, maybe hunt down stuff you know? or like make turn that turn the retail space into part of the game that's on the

app and, and make, make them their store like something that people will remember because they did this experience in their store and they want to go back and do it again. there's a lot of ways that, that just just, you know, businesses are trying to figure out how to game of 5 things that don't. they have never been game a 5 before that because people are so used to playing games that it's easier for them to get into than it would have been 20 years ago. he's like a reverse question. what do you think? will video games never be able to do to the consumer? is there an experience that using a video game cannot deliver by design? i don't know about that. you know, like if somebody is blind, maybe you know, games like i'll let them see. i don't think maybe there is

a way that somebody can figure out in the future, but really, i think the game can do basically anything, especially when they're paired with a real world technology, a real world device. you know, like our phones are the one thing reaching into the real world, from a computer or a console or whatever. or the internet games can do basically anything that, that people want to want to want to do like people are always thinking of new ways of engaging people in a new world or in a new activity. so i don't, i can't really think of anything that people won't want to do that again, can't deliver. that's, you know, whether it's virtual or it's tied to with real world stuff. you know, i've heard that artificial intelligence is being develop that will actually learn not only how to be a game changer, but how to design games themselves. do thing this viable way forward or video games and, you know, will that put people like you out of business?

eventually there's a lot of work on using ai and machine learning to create parts of games. and the nice thing about that is that that basically means maybe the dev team isn't as big because there's a i that's doing of the bulk of the, of the work. but there's also like the a, i don't know what to do if someone's not telling them what to do. and you, if there is an a i that people are using to say generate level designs. there's an a that's used to generate global designs. and there's a, there's a piece of, there's a, a c, the feed to it, to learn a certain type of level design. so, so everyone's game isn't the same. because if, if the game has become the same, no, going to want to use that a i anymore, right? because looks like, oh, it's using that a i that generated level. i'm done with this game. so there's,

there has to be differentiation. if you're going to use an ai, i mean that you have to teach it a certain way. that means you have to have something that's really different. teach and those are not going to be done by other eyes. they have to be done by a person who has a vision for a game, and in, in a place that you want the game to take place and, and those things will need to be done by designers, you know. and there could be at some point, instead of a team of people building these level, do you have a team of people building the teaching tools for the a i to generate the amazing stuff. because if you're going to, you know, in the future, if you're going to play a game that like people are going to jump into it and they're going to see a brand new level every time that they jump into the game. you're going to need a team of people who are not building levels, but they're building a teaching data to feed to the engine that then generates a level, right?

so there's always somebody was going to have to be on a dev team using these advanced tools to get the output that they're looking for. so it's not like they'll, you'll be replacing low designers as well. designers will probably step up and become a designers. and so there'll be new jobs for people of john deere. thank you so much for this wonderful insight into the world of video games. it's been a delight talking to you. thank you. good luck with everything. thanks to like, the ah, the september the 11th 2000 to one day that reshape to the modern world.

i remember watching the world trade center burn on a tv at the cia and i was standing there like this just looking at it. and a colleague of mine was standing next to me and he said, my god, did they have any idea what they've done? we're going to kill everybody now everybody the, the live and luckily to tv images promote the us into declaring its war on terror. they've begun to bomb african villages and holmes get, or people hurt and, and killed the main goal of destroying terrorism. and then was it achieved? yes. and no. ok to essentially no longer exists. good for us. but there are certainly other terrorist groups that are worse than on

the pacific leg around the world. expedition by 1000 miles round the clock in the dead calm. miss wilson in every country close by. it was like the crew, gavin's food and water and food to chat for a little. i know i got everybody locked down or home or no food and no water that only give them up. so can somebody either stuck

a fish in the cove in your living like the female of own but in the 21st century, i have to delays and sanction russia. finally completes construction of the controversial nord stream to pipeline pit set to deliver low cost natural gas from siberia to central europe. and i and they did not speak. if you are not the medical you deserve. not. i not these fascism on the weekend of 911 the 20th anniversary are key looks at the lasting impact of the us led war on terror. we hear from a former guantanamo prisoner, released after 14 years of unlawful detention.