the sea food that are maybe red, orange, yellow, maybe be assumed that they going to be on the sweet side of things. received rounder, soft and assume again that they're going to be sweeter in some way. i was out here on our team to national job in the front event. it's frustration is 3, but i lied the us the u. k. and australia. leave it out of a pacific security lines seen as an effort to count the china the know of us as job i had and make the brother embarrassing flip up while announcing the deal. apparently forgetting the name of the australian prime minister and they keep doors and i want to think that down under thank you very much. i appreciate it just

had rushed parliamentary elections, kicks off size polling stations open their doors to the 1st. voters will bring you the full breakdown on air, on online throughout the 3 days of voting in our special covering. what types of joining us here? what are the national just off the 6 i am here at moscow. we are back soon with more on this friday, september the 7th. ah, hello, welcome to sophie co visionaries. me sophie shepherd, nonsense crystal, harris and erin to play in london, red, orange. it really turns out that enjoying the food we eat is not only a matter of taste. how does the labour find its way from the tongue to the brain and how can it be manipulated?

well, i asked joseph, you said experimental chef and founder of a low tie, sensory calling or a lap called kitchen theory. joseph use it experimental shaft, founder of kitchen theory, multi sensory calling, or lab. great to have you on our show today. welcome. thank you very much for having me. it's a pleasure to be here. all right, so you're calling are experiments, line the field of what you call gastro physics, right? physics of taste. and we used to think that areas of the tongue detect different tastes, but turns out it's not really the case. so, how does our perception of taste words? i mean, how do i know that the bear is in my mouth are sweet, and coffee's bitter well flavors coins complex construct. so we tend to think of flavors being made up of 2 main elements. one is our perception of taste as you mentioned. so everything on our tongue, so salty beta, our sweet and even something called mommy and

a sense of smell. and when you put the 2 together that you get flavor. but actually from our research we found the flavor as much more of a monkey sensory and cross modal. ringback perception, so what that means is, is more about how all of your different senses come together. so not only how you, how things smell and how they tasted, also how they look and feel of them and even the sound of all of these very rich smoky sensory elements as weigh, eating and enjoying foods. all coming together in our minds to construct the expectations for management, the enjoyment of the dislike of the fruits where you take and so flavors of much broader topic than just looking taste essentially. so with pace like we have sweet, sour, salted, bitter right. when i, let's say strawberry ice cream, if it were completely up to me and only take sweetness, yet i take

a lot more than that. where does more come from in my brain? well, the more will come from number one, the aroma will take a large role in that. so we all know if you're not feeling well or you have a cold, that may be a sense, a cell doesn't work so well. and when you, since a cell isn't working with eating foods, we can say the 3 doesn't have much flavor. the taste of much you can keep adding ship it to your coffee or salt to your state and to get sweeter, assaulted, improve the flavor in any way to offensive cement. it's vital for when you're eating something like you said. strawberry ice cream strawberry is made up of much more than just sweetness. there's a lot of other molecules and compounds contributing towards flavor and extinguish. let's say strawberry. ready from raspberry or from blackberries. and that's a vital element of us being able to kind of really make a distinction between what strawberry ice cream and what's

a rock ice cream. if you didn't have your sense of smell, or if you pick your nose as you were eating them both, they probably both taste pretty much the same. they be kinda sweet and maybe a bit sour in some way. but essentially we very difficult to tell the difference that was something like ice cream. the other element is obviously the mouse feel in the texture, and the creaminess, and all of these elements. what are coming together in your brain to give you and the temperature, let's say if the ice cream as well. so all of these things that your brain is taking into consideration when it's trying the ice cream and that it's making judgments based upon. so if you have an ice cream and it's very c or as a crunchy and a texture where the, it's kind of very frozen that might not be as pleasant as when the ice cream is nice and soft and smooth in your mouth and melts. really well, so it's not just about the sweetness of the soundness of the business. it's also about the other factors that are going on the make ice cream, so enjoyable or if i got your idea right?

food flavor is the brain cost track rather than a sensory perception in our mouth. so are you saying basically that if i convinced myself somehow that lemons are sweet, they will taste sweet? no, because does the important thing with flavor. you've got 2 elements working, one, your chemical senses. so your sense of smell and taste and bees are reacting to the chemicals in the food. it's giving you certain perception. then you have the other elements, as i said, like things like texture or sound or the visual of it. so if you were eating this for ice cream, but it was blue color, while your brain isn't going to register it as being strawberry initially. so maybe when you try it, you will disconnect. maybe if you, if you see the screen of blue, you might, let's say, for example, think it's blue break and then when you go to it and it turns out that it tastes a strawberry. well then your brain would be very confused by that. and so what would be better in a situation like that is if we want you to register it as being strawberry ice

cream, is that we make it as red as we can, or as close to store a color as we can feel brain to be able to really kinda confirm its expectations, but no, it's not enough. you can change certain attributes in one sense. another can confuse the other sensors or can maybe direct. ready them towards making me different judgment. then you can convince your brain, but eating strawberry ice cream is a different flavor because there's too many physical parts of it. when it comes to chemical senses, that can be food in such simplistic way. i still wonder, like, how far can we manipulate our brain? let's say maybe i can't come in my cell, but can other people convince me even they know in detail how flavor building works . i mean, can census which produce the experience of labor in our minds, the manipulated and create a can link convincing illusion of labor. now, yes, so there are certain things you can do. it's food that will in some way or

men. so as i said, maybe changing the color of the food can change your. ready perception, we know a lot of people are using something like a green jelly if you present them with something that's coming out the jelly and it's a green color. a lot of the time shows that the flavors like something like line or . ringback and even if you flavor it with something different, a lot of the time people find it different, difficult to kind of english or identify what it is because the sensory choose are quite right. and you can in some ways. ready even through things like sound make foods tast, crunchy or. ready fresher than they are. and when it comes to texture, you can also meant flavors so that you can kind of trick the brain slightly. but at the same time, it is very difficult to convince your products that you're eating one flavor buses . they're a little kind of sensory things you can do kind of what we do. the research is

looking at how you can make these little sensory changes within the food that encourage people towards making maybe more sustainable or nutritious or healthier food choices. and this is specifically looking at with kids or hospitals or care homes and looking at how we can design food experiences to encourage people to make better choices. quote, culinary iris shev, place, chaps like you, right? they approach eating not just food consumption, but it's like a multi sensory experience. and you mentioned smell. let's talk about that. when there is a big ball a soup. obviously miss mouth feels room. but when i, let's say i don't know a potato chris, right? i maybe only smell it for a 2nd before eating it. how do i smell food that is already inside my mouth? pass my nostrils, and shouldn't i lose the flavor? the minute are consumed? good. now you have 2 senses of flay to senses of smell. one is called also nasal,

which is as you said, the bowl of soup when it's in the room and everything that you can kind of smell around you in the environment. and as you're lifting the spoon up to, you know, as you can smell, that kind of aroma of the sea. all of that is what you would call ortho, nasal. and then once you put the soup into your mouth or whatever the food is, then you have something called retro nasal, which is all the, every time you swallow the little of the go up through the back of your old factory system, which is your, what makes up your sense of smell, and that gives you a 2nd perception of aroma. so this is why as well, you can smell something like many cheese that maybe doesn't fell so great. that's quite pungent. do you think of unripe, french brea or something like that? that's quite pungent smell. once you put it in your mouth, tastes delicious. and the flavor is great, and it doesn't smell the same inside as it does on the outside. and that's because you're chewing it, it's mixing with saliva and it's undergoing and processing as well. that is

changing aroma to construct in some ways. so what's important to understand is that you choose to smell very distinct work in different ways. but essentially, even when you put the food in your mouth, you are still smelling it only with a. ready different and not necessarily directly through the notes. you know, i think it was like a decade ago, cadbury updated their dairy milk chocolate bars. and there was like a modest opera that ensued and people were claiming that it has become sweeter and then food experts chuckle at pierre's still like way again. and then in turn out that the recipe hadn't changed a bit. and they just made the edges a bit more around, which somehow made people assure that the taste had changed as well. so your, our sense of flavor is informed by the shape of the sweet meeting, by my sense of vision. yeah, i mean there's all sorts of interesting associations that we have the quotations

and judgments for the set through our eyes. i mean, in current or if i college this notion of visual dominance. so what we see with our eyes, that's judgements and expectations and a very kind of simple. ready example, i could show you of that would be if i was show you these 2 shapes. and if i was to ask you which of these you would call goober and which you would call to key. so and key if i say this one would be that will be key, can the other one will be boom. yeah, $0.98. well, population will go with that kind of correlation. there's no right or wrong answer for it, but what's interesting is that we found that even if you talk about food and flavors are sweet, creamy fancy, truly soft comfort food flavors, most people will associate those with food and future tar acidic christy crunchy sour kind of flavors will spicy favors most people associated with something like this shape or behavior. and what's interesting about that is, although there is no right or wrong answer,

the majority of people who have that kind of association. so when we see foods that are maybe read or are enjoy yellow, maybe we assume that they going to be on the sweet side of things i received. is that a rounder and soft and looking maybe we assume again that they're going to be sweeter in some way versus if we see foods and other kind of colors or shapes. so there's all sorts of things that you can grease example that you just gave for the chocolate. that could be 2 reasons behind the why people felt it was suite number one. the shape was round of the boss and maybe that means it melts differently on the tongue. maybe that's more surface area and maybe that's why people got a bit more sweet. and then the 2nd reason is maybe just because it looked around people assuming from the visual presentation of the chocolate, that in some way it was sweet joseph, we're going to take a short break right now when we're back. we'll continue talking to joseph, use the experimental chef founder of kitchen theory and multi sensory calling or

lab. talking about how to taste, find its way to our brain, say, with the the ah, is your media a reflection of reality? the, in a world transformed. what will make you feel safer? tyson lation community. you going the right way? or are you being direct? what is truth? is faith in the world corrupted. you need to defend

the join us in the depths. will remain in the shallows. ah. i have often said transparency for the powerful receipt for the bell. this bit cares about privacy. what people care about is power. julian sons is become a symbol of the battles of brevity. information is power. that's what's going on. and a huge struggle with the government's corporations. who want to keep information secret and others who democratic rights should be pushed forward and people have a right to know what they're going to do. watch help to shift the conversation around transparency. see what that battle has done to him. i feel like julian life

might be coming to an end. we are in a constant situation with the largest and most powerful employer in such a situation. it's remarkable to survive the, the ah, and we're back with joseph uses experimental chef founder of kitchen theory and multi sensory call and they were lap joseph. and then there's correlation of color and taste. need talk about that quite a bit as well when we generally associate white with salty, black brown with bitter greenwood likes our red. sweet. where do these associations

come from? i mean why, for example, we associate white with salt if sugar is also white. yeah, no i, i completely agree and there is no you know, the research, if anything has identified that we have these associations, it hasn't really specified why we have to stations. and one of the reason being is that, you know, distant change from even regions region with the majority of people around the world. research will say, sorry about $0.75 population will say why is salty, black is big, green is sour, red, sweet. but then when you go into different parts of the world, so when we went to sweden, for example, most people felt like was salty because they were associated with salty licorice. when we went to asia, they said in some parts we said like was salty because they were associating with things like so. so, so, so there will be regional and kind of cultural differences that play into this in some way. but what's interesting is that the majority of people. ready and put into

that kind of course choice of making association between the color and the taste will kind of agree on what life is. and that could be maybe out of that choice. ready salt is white, so we go, it's kind of why being salty like dish brown you think maybe it's things like tea and coffee? maybe it's been charged through. it's hard to kind of fight this in the student green being said, well, maybe cuz it's our candy or lines. there's even a hypothesis that it could be a more than 8 pounds of our brain to thinks of unripe fruit being kind of green and sour. right, fruits being sweet and juicy and ready to eat so we don't know exactly why there are these correlations exist, but what we do know is that they exist. and that's very interesting because then if you come to the design of food on the sign of food experiences, understanding those kind of correlations can maybe help you with designing foods or food experiences, but encourage people to make better food choices. you know,

will love food that also look more weird then taste like oysters, some thinking arm or durian. i mean that asian fruit that it smells like hell, but when you taste it's really good. so for a certain fluids do is switch up certain sensors like visual sensor or sense of smell when it comes to enjoying them. or does it always come into package? no, all the senses are constantly working away like your phone in the background. when you're using your sense of hearing doesn't tend to shut down. everything is constantly, always taking away in the background. so it's maybe if you become more aware of it and this is a big part of what we do with the dying experiences that our chefs table is encourage. ready people to be more mindful of those sentences as a things are in the case of something like dorian, which you mentioned, you're right. it does smell pretty bad when you kind of, you know, when you 1st approve open a new smelling it as we set off uneasily from the outside. but once you bite into

it, well then the retro nasal side of things kicks in and all of sudden it becomes something that we enjoy in some way. but, you know, it's important that the senses, if your sensors are functioning normally constantly working in the background and feeding your brain with this very kind of rich information. and if you don't like the, if you don't like how does look then chances are going to be very hard unless you change the way the way you've manipulated. ready way even by deep tried doing something like that just by changing the visual aspect of the presentation of it. even that may be enough to encourage someone to eat or enjoy it. but generally, all the sensors are constantly working. and what's most important, if they work together for people to have a really enjoyable, multi sensory food experience. being mindful, it's probably one of the most important parts of it. because, you know, as we always say to people, you can eat a sandwich, sitting on

a train between meetings and rushing from one place to the other. and it's not going to taste as good as, as the same sand ridge. if you it says on a nice bench on a sunny day, like the nice funny day that you have behind you, that enjoying is a nature and kind of taking in the texture and the flavor and the aspects of the sandwich. so i, since we are constantly working, but we don't always focus on what we're doing and a big part of what we do. a kitchen theory with most sensory dining is making sure that people really aware and focus on mindful of each of their sensors is enjoying that meal. can there be a taste experience that is pure not enhanced by music, light shapes, colors, etc. would that taste experience be more true to others? will i know how. busy she can really take to fight without, let's say, looking at it at all. it may do. but then again, you know,

if using that kind of some like dining in the dark, where you don't get to see your food. most people find that quite mobile and interesting, but in the long term we don't really necessarily enjoy not being able to see our foods. i think we take, you have to, you only have to take a look at instagram, see how much people enjoy. cohen re, boyer, is looking at food and the whole idea of food, penumbra, see, and all the content that's uploaded around to we enjoy as human beings looking at food and it kind of opens our appetite. it makes us one to engage with it or not ones are engage with that. and as for the other sensitive your district back and you have if you think about. ready it and i just the late eighty's, early ninety's, a lot of restaurants were going for much more of a kind of almost gallery style, white wools, white tablecloths, very stripped, right? very simplistic. and it was all about that was on the chase. i think now something

once done more and more people like seeing the open kitchen. people like the showmanship, they like the music to be hunger and fishing with the atmosphere and mood there. and they like the, you know, the picture of the chairs and the tables and all of these things are important to trace where the read registering the mindfully on is one thing. but these, this is all information that's kind of being fed back to us. and i think for us to really be able to enjoy sitting in a blank room with a blank table with a piece of chicken in front of us. it's not going to be. ready anywhere near as enjoyable as enjoying that same piece of chicken and the company are good friends in a nice environment. and that's the kind of elements that really come together to give us a dining is also a very social thing. and it's a very sensory and social activity that we enjoy taking part in as part of the community as part of a group. so i don't think dining in isolation really gives you

a purer version of eating. this is why we do a lot of tests in the land, but we also do a lot of we try and take these ideas from out of the lab and put them into the dining room because people taking truth in a lab in very stero conditions isn't necessarily how we taste things in the real well and so that there's a big difference between the 2. i know that like your mission in general is using your knowledge about food and as a multi sensory experience. and then by that, inspire people to eat better, to eat healthier. so i understand, for instance, that the color of a plate can make chicken breasts and broccoli on it look more appealing. what are the tricks that you could use to make people less sugar or salt? well, maybe or venting. so then we talked a little bit about kind of like shape and texture. so if i was designing,

let's say, a children's deserve some kind, maybe want to make sure that the packaging that it comes in is really red. because we said red is the color of sweetness. so read some paints and oranges and colors like that, that really scream sweetness maybe want to make sure the color of the, the color of the product, the yoga for ice cream itself, let's say, is deep tone of red. that kind of tells the brain. but there's that sweetness there, that way. craving, then there's the shape of the packaging. maybe you'd want to go from the case of sweetness. you want to make it rounder in some way and more soft and kind of maybe to text or even of the material to the packaging is made of. we know that people are holding something like this or. ready silk or something smooth and they'll find food sweeter and creamy and smoother than if they're holding something rushed in hand like from paper or a piece of rock piece of elk grove. so thinking about the design of the packaging,

thinking, the design of the ice cream of the organ itself in terms of its texture and its creaminess and smoothness. now that's not to say that you can take out all the sugar from this food all be said. and simply replace it with these other sensory elements. however, what we're saying is, even if you can make small reductions in the amount of sugar that you put, i was mentioning the color by changing the shape or the texture, or even what people are listening to is using it. all of these elements can combine together towards allowing us to make small reductions in things like salt and sugar across the board and see the small. ready reductions can kind of over time and build up to something called yeah, it's funny, i noticed that as i'm move through life natural becomes tastier to me. you know, like teenagers can dream gallons of coca cola, but adult people around me stick to sparkling water or flat water with lemon. and

it's not just a question of cellulite or, oh, or, you know, chemicals in the coke. it's just like it tastes better because it tastes simpler. does love poor chemical, enhanced food, whether with age and in what other ways age of fact, perception of taste. it. so it's not so much like chemicals. as much as is what you just mentioned bad, which is age. so when you were a baby, obviously you crave completely different nutritionally. you crave different things when you're a teenager, when you're, when your elderly, you know, getting older in life and even things i picture of people change when you were a baby you use simply won't solid foods and on the opposite end of the spectrum. and then when you're a teenager, let's say you love crunchy crispy correctly even into adulthood, but then as you get older, maybe again, softer foods become more comfortable and more enjoyable again. so there's, there's both that kind of physical requirements of food that will change as we kind of grow and, and age. and then there will be the nutritional requirements that we have. we can

see this and you know, people who are say, women who are pregnant have different requirements or people who live in different parts of the world or different jobs. they'll have different nutritional requirements. so it'll change very much from one individuals to another. but what's for sure, is that our pallets and our what safety a test and what we enjoy definitely changes over time. and one of the reasons would be because something like soda, when you mentioned there, as well as we get all that maybe we become more aware of the ramifications or the, the cost of drinking so much sugary, sweet, complicated stuff. my point is, is that as we get older and start to maybe change our priorities. so when teenager do i really care as much about, you know, my body shape and weight? well maybe that's where i'm starting to become more aware of it. maybe when i start realize that well, actually, to the taste of that coke as good as it is, appealed to me quite as much because i have different priorities and what i find

taste, you know how i classify good flavor, go tasty foods. thank you so much. for this wonderful insight into the world of food taste pallets of our taste, it's really quite ashley talking to thank you so much for you emphasize that the whole new science and it's not just food. i wish you all the best of luck and i hope we can do this in person one. definitely i look forward to it. thank you so much. take care. thank you. have a great day. the

in the 1920s infinity of several 100 african americans moved to the soviet union. and many of their descendants still lived in russia. law never chose for nice things in london back home, but i can merican suffered from racism and a complete lack of prospects. you said, you reckon up a month will be a losing one by one. provide you with the procedure. so they decided to leave everything behind and start a new life in a country about which they knew almost nothing at all. some of the african americans who went to soldiers union in 1830 found great success to me. and now almost a 100 years later history is repeating itself. my great grandfather.