the trail. when so many find themselves worlds apart, we choose to look for common ground in the news. i'm not sure that we're going underground coming up in the show heaven in disorder . one of the world's greatest philosophers. leverage is gone, is hot off the presses, new book about corona virus and the ends of capitalism. and even the global academic couldn't stop bombing sanctions of the destruction of the earth through

climate change can hope be found within the structures of capitalism. we drove possibility with award winning industry gallery front men, all the same, all coming up in today's going underground. the 1st 31 years ago on this day, german reunification was ratified closing the book on communism in the eyes of the united states and supposedly ending history. however, you're 11 years later, civilizations clashed as president george w bush declared a war on terror before congress was the question of the end of u. s. a gemini is once again raised in the context of the defeat enough can it's done. is the so called west standing of the precipice of a new historical epoch. joining me now is philosophy slower jack, author of the new book, heaven in disorder. slavery, thanks so much for joining us. again, it's a tour de force is a book that informs everyday lives in whole new ways. i have to tell you you're playing on a mouse, quote, mouse saying there is great disorder in heaven. the situation is excellent. what does a disorderly heaven look like? the one in which we live?

no, i don't from our our i check the top precisely, again, disorder under mauer still believe them invest chance of us. she started to study. please come. you need them to go be here on the are so that we can walk. we can we, we moved to actually go. what are you shipping today? i games is something much more dangerous. the decent order in kevin week by di, i mean me, king, please can rock more and more especially in the south west. we cannot unite even on base peak value that would allow our

broberg bank to me. and it says, look at the united states today. weekly spread nice situation off your tv. this explains on show and the stands to back to me and so on. and this is logical. leave that going. don't daddy wrong. now i will be excused for being she's if i say something more than ever, we should follow what you mom the way the great freedom and enlighten and set to set the lights. many mean don't wait. just a no last minute means debate then your opinion probably to me, but maybe to say i almost go very,

i only knew that are going to be so yes, debate. but when society comes conclusion we shall be and do we be again, it's in buffy. modern regarding bus, you better to do it today when you're in the united states. if your anger house, they don't go between that and then the 1st 2nd you'll trust slower use one for today we are right in europe we you have to have as 00 in the fish to get out. and then you're going to come to your was easy to get us ambassador to talk about the floors and

lift numbers. i mean, there are so many elements to this book with see what we're all going through before i get to the vaccines actually be you were watching on the screen, the taliban victory, the defeat of the united states. and you, i think the tie up in this book between the collective action and the beliefs of the taliban versus the fuzzy mercenaries. they're not conscripted. the nato troops and the belief and collective action for investing in game stop and bitcoin. you know, you know, why all the elements, they're all moments against this guy because it's very important. what you mention to reduce how in so called freedom. the can't reach autumn is more and more professional armies. but if you do

a from that we have more and more indirect today where basically our mercenaries on dose in by what this means. days, mostly, no bro, but not the basin. they are just need to follow whatever the sites in this for me again is a lot of momentum movement, sorry, land movement off of the mission. collect these societies falling into do a seems on the want to be able to get strong due to draft and not just i'm not going to be already got already chunky because these folks through love g or less. on the other hand,

we sure that's who do you think the new way just any roof? gus? no steps or any fashion and why this dangerous? no. i don't want you to not because my nation states i want, i think the already so you were us basing from damage and even more facing water. me remember what happened in the show mission. there stage temperature almost college fair in a minute. just just resend all these problems to my go to a lot. i'm nation, even when you get a grant commitment, be logical. we all have our own opinions. what is the new database of our

lives? it's just some kind of new knowledge. of course, this leads us to the criticism of that view is of course it ends up in, in style in ism and that kind of arguably lazy response to the kind of thing you would just saying. but i run it. it is that liberal environment in which you describe an ecology of fear and the idea that people are so frightened by climate catastrophe. you. i mean, this book is coming out as young people about to be the survey of 10000 people around the world saying for intent, afraid to have children. there is a fear being propagated by the liberals. yes, sir, but i think no, we should go more in the days. i think mostly this fear of thank fear, lodging off. what we can make ma'am. i know how we piece,

but i don't really believe we need yes or be selling this and so on. some my friend, my point that out there, he's got some problems. we count on the sphere, you know, in most scotty, but instead of blending opened, he got to do a little bit best to make us individually response. you bet the solution giving us a room. if you don't dress, criticize, what did you do in your everyday life? to fight global warming your deep. you both sides go and saw your space.

everything concerning? yes. but the fees, know you're much more advocate change in dia, so she seems to even be our entire way of life things, sir? yes. now he's no longer a strict just like to say price meaning no. east west. i think, gosh, we don't, you know, do been trying to go from the start asking for example, because you're billed each year, but merely will to who for one year when we reason not find most of the nation we knew was woman. sure. theater. i fear because here any chance is not a mobilizing for us. i played fear is tomorrow. oh gosh. do you

see and you know, you're just, you are kind of plus you made if you just read read me that and we talk about that liberal guilt and people eating out of paper, drinking yoga, drinking out of paper straws rather than plastic. but we are told to give to charity and you reproduce oscar wilde's famous quote about the evils of charity. just remind us why charity as a response to all the straw consequences off capitalism. as you see, it is actually something that makes things worse for the poor and ordinary people. the company through our domain,

golf and show state is your best until because she's been lying to got caught by being to try to do. but look at the big chart. okay. he may yet be, but he's daily. be in the morning, keith. the morning he spent hours in financial speak with a free god. god. then he can be used to be back in the same week. bill gates again dot young, but the thing the most less got me the least for me. young face. yes. yes, he goes to be but you know, i'm only here yesterday. he's not giving drive back in this situation so that will not be with me. so i'll still be there

more from lots of slides your check off to the break plus we talk possibility and the future of humanity and neoliberalism within to chicago from en route reynolds. ah, so what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy. even plantation let it be an arms race is on often very dramatic development. only personally, i'm going to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very political time. time to sit down and talk. oh right now there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or. busy obese,

it's profitable to sell food that is 20 and sugary and the under the victim. not at the individual level. it's not individual willpower. and if we go on believing that will never change as obesity epidemic. that industry has been influencing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment, ah, what's driving the mac? it's corporate, me. ah, welcome back. i'm still here with one of the world's greatest philosophers. slower jack. we'll just just finally, if one turns on another channel right now, one could probably see. so go mainstream media and they donations talking about climate change, how we should be proud of our de facto mercenary for years and how we should give to charity. but they won't be any news about julian assange,

who is in jail just down the road from the studio. why in this book, do you adopt, maxwell can i'm as quote you about the idea that don't dare talk about chinese protest is in hong kong or bella, luce, if you don't care about julian, it's the most dangerous. so you don't be, don't know if they don't we, we know we're going to be spirit. no, we played on the situation and the rest you are in some huge sense for monday free. do you want to set up all the way where you want enjoyment? one, but the safety space, 3 don't you are going to be 40 money related to that you experience for their own is your freedom today is no longer working class or even some kind of restaurant thing. you know that he's

been think us in what he can get. what area of school be history in liver thinking. i know that when you got to where you are a small never got the least. you are 3. you can make these contract. there's no real good work guess you need be and they say you a small your, your labor cost and you clearly for here or your work or least you see the show you are a dash 3. pretty sure they said when they say they say yes, you know, people you want to see you can invest a little bit of money that you get into you sounds and want to

keep to a li, narrow your salary check. thank you. well, if jack solution to the relentless chaos facing the world is communism. another book examining the existential crises, facing the world today argues that just identifying the structural issues inherent within your liberalism is enough to start changing it. a treatise on possibility, perspectives on humanity hereafter, by end to chicago re frontman. reynolds is a collection of essays that explores issues from nuclear war to climate change to political polarization. through the prism of the capitalist structures that drive them going on, the ground deputy editor charlie cook spoke to him earlier. the route. thank you so much coming back on going underground. you written books before,

but this is not just the kind of companion piece to your album. this is more would you, would you call a manifesto explosion of some things i've considered, i think, as you say, it's not, it's not so much me just delving in and explaining the lyrics to help you find, you know, guide them through our whole processes. it's much more of a sort of exploration of the world that we live in really and just explain the kind of central concept you call it a treatise on possibility. but it's a 2. it's a double edged sword and a thing being possible, but also everything being possible just to explain the kind of central concept of the book possibility is able to see this just incredibly broad, like it can sort of mean wherever you want and it can lead you down it any road i'm what i find interesting with without album title, where we the choice to use. everything is possible is because there, we don't really have much of a choice in it, so to speak, you know,

like now our technology has progressed to such an incredible point. and we are of wisdom, haven't really kept up with it. so it creates this slight fascinating point wherever, as a species which is where we're so so powerful, but we haven't really learned how to deal with this power. and therefore we in a grave danger of kind of destroying ourselves completely, which is one of the big. so of the, of the book will look into existential wrist. yeah, i would like to come back to humanities, future, or lack thereof, as it may be. but how important was it for you when writing this is a lot of literatures of this kind is elitist or inaccessible. how important was it for you to write something which can, which anyone can read? anyone can understand the kind of concepts within i think that was one of the most important bits for me really. i think, you know, as a thank you. if i had had these kind of these books and these kind of inroads into

these subjects as a kid myself, i would have been out of grown up a lot more competent. not more a lot most of infuse, i think and passionate about exploring these, these big subjects. i think my thing is all about of encouraging like the intrigue of the youth instead of disliked bludgeoning them down again. this is how it's all about. so of withholding of the imagination, which i think is one of the most dangerous things that humanity can do. because it's one of our best traits. you know, we are created species when it comes to a possibility. i want to make clear that it doesn't touch upon the, this isn't a vague way again and again when it comes to going to climate change or political lying, or the polarization, the law wild, you bring it back and back to new liberalism and all kind of the capital, a sister in which we live, are you surprised how often? all of these arrows always came back to the concept and liberalism, when you are writing. i think i got to the point now because of the so much the

research that i've done and you know, in the, in the book i talk about from the bus i view. so like take yourself out of like the territorial rabbit, spying out on the ground. you know, the tribal is in the hostility, that is just rife in society a moment and just look at things from a systems perspective. that is really the most important thing for me because we're, we're not encouraged to view things. we don't courage to zoom out and view things from the border perspective. really. i'm not given a chance to at any point because you know, each of our personal lives is such a strong merely to stay afloat anyway. so that was probably the pivotal thing for me, but the book is just always trying to encourage people to zoom out and see the links and see what the root causes of our problems are because we where often so kind of lead to just create so of you know, a class is like band aid like to our problems and instead of actually tree thing, the real, you know, disease which a so often leads us back to the profit. my might say that leaves us back to

individual ism, to near liberalism to this narrative, that we're all completely independent of each other, which goes against all, you know, the say she ology and psychology and, and, and how we sort of grew and evolved as a specie but when, when you see this kind of overarching structure, your book advocates hope over blind optimism just explained that concept because it does seem increasingly want to kind of see the cage how much harder to hope in a way. that's why it's so important i think, to make these, these concepts which, you know, most people don't really think about ex, essential risk. they are on, on day to day basis or like the, the core traits of capitalism. how effects are public health and how it drops our ecology. so i think encouraging people to gently gain a broader understanding is like that. you know, just the pivotal thing. well that, well, let's talk about at the time to read them because one of the things that was really interesting that you come back to in your book is about the 2 tools that humanity

has its disposal. and there's a really conversation and talking and violence being the other one. again, when you say you're not complete and you think about, well what, what do we have? our disposal is literally, we can communicate with each other or we can use brute force. and that's basically what we have as a species and the ways in which we're encouraged to communicate at the moment. so if we look at social media as the main example, you know, that's how we really conversed with most people in our lives and definitely with strangers. the ways in which social media are structured kind of lead us not to communicate, but actually the opposite. mean a lot of research done in that, as soon as you take away the face and it's just text, we're much more likely to humanize others. now you look at social media and you see that you can use travel 6 times faster than like real concrete kind of factual base

news on twitter. all these ways they're just kind of encouraging us to hostility, encouraging us to violence effectively. so again, there's a real structural problem with the ways that we now communicate with, with each other in the 21st century. and in the book talks on the, the end game about which is potential kind of nuclear annihilation. but let's look at the other existential risk of climate change. you said it's kind of talking, seems to be a way to get around that. but we had so many climate summits meetings, the ip cc, we've got the call coming up. even though they're all the summit game on, it does seem like the climate battle is spinning. it's wheel somewhere within government that huge amount of progress being made. how, how do you, how do you push forward in that arena? as you say, it's been something that we've just we failed i things like family miserably. i

think one of the reasons is because we just haven't gone to the core of it. we haven't really grabbed a big oil by the bowls and like actually saw it. so in that whole industry out at the moment, it's still heavily subsidized and supported. and if you'd look at the energy industry, it's displaying so much of the behavior that we saw from the tobacco industry as it started to be revealed decades ago. the tobacco cause it caused this lung cancer epidemic. they then spent so much money, you know, misleading the public inter missed information, lobbying of government, you know, bringing laws that kept their industry safe. there's literally billions every year from the big names in, in oil. so we're off again, all of that, which is again, if you look at it, it's the profit motive, you know, i don't think really think these people are evil that they've let 3. they're just

protecting their incentives. so i don't think we should you know, demonize these people in the, in a very so reductive way that, that evil or something. i think again, we actually just have to look at the core motives so, so i have faith, but it means again looking at actual core issues and changing things on a, on a real structural scale. one of the areas that a lot of people pointed to a new point to me is kind of youth movements. but again, i keep coming back to maybe the more pessimistic aspect, the things rebellion protest and now led to the u. k. government cracking down on rights to protest within the u. k. and you mentioned before about fossil fuel lobbying it. now, how, what do you say to people who would say that all of this in the face of massive government push back massive industry pushback that there is no hope?

i think the yeah, the things that have given me hope over the years how have been, especially recently the youth climate mover and because the degree of understanding, i think such an early age, you know, this was not a degree of understand the ide achieved by you know when i was way through high school, like it really is different now, but they have grown up in a world feeling completely detached from what has come before them. you know, they see the issues, they see what has gone wrong. and i know that targets and i think there's a real real determination and a real passion there, but perhaps was missing from like my generation even. but certainly generations above that fills me with hope because i think these people, the fact that they, you know, this is, these are passionate, clever people. they're going to go into these industries and disrupt them from the inside. they're going to go into law and disrupt them. from,

from the law aspects of it, you know, things like being a car side. finally, starting to become considered to be a crime against humanity. that's going to be huge. so i think there's going to be all these ways people attack what has come before and start making change possible . and just finally, i should ask because obviously your tory musician, the government. last time you came on the show, we talked about how the government is maybe undermining arts and favors. and we'll rarefied out the option that alex euro. alas, a to richie to not have you had any response to any of your appeal to government or or how's your opinion changed since that on how they're handling the odds? no, no, it hasn't really change. i think it's been one of the, the most affected industries by the panoramic and it's being, i think, one of the least kind of aided and helped. and we haven't seen any like big utah or anything. but again, it's not really a shock. i think in

a society the to some extent discourage is imagination of course, but i know exactly going to support the hans. so it's not something it surprised me and you know, i didn't expect the response but i think was being great as being the sort of communal response from the industries i'm from the, the, the office and everyone involved. that's been really encouraging. and you know, that's something that, you know, i don't think our government can can take away from us, like, well, good to leave it on an optimistic rental. thank you so much. thanks for having me. raw rentals speaking to going underground deputy added to charlie cook that's in for the show will be back on wednesday to continue our coverage over the 2 year anniversary of the lead up to the us led war in afghanistan. with an adviser, the nato, and the former have can president that you have gone until then keep in touch my social media and let us know what means you support to change the well, ah ah

ah ah, the headlines and r t a sorry is not enough and neither is the money, the relative 10 afghan civilians killed by us strike demand justice. although washington insist that no one will be punished for the death. we speak with the father to see your old girl. the last hello. no one to compensate says if you give us all the money in the world, it will not be enough. it's not possible we need assurance that next time they will not kill innocent people and children in other countries. the culprits must be convicted and inquiry is opened into chief earth.