the i'm sure it has it, we're going underground coming up the show have been in disorder. one of the world's greatest philosophers. leverage is gone, is hot off the presses, new book about corona virus and the end of capitalism. and if even a global panoramic couldn't stop bombing sanctions and the destruction of the earth through climate change can hope be found within the structures of capitalism. we draw possibility with award winning industry gallery front man rentals. all this is coming up in today's going underground. the 1st 31 years ago in this day, german reunification was ratified closing the book on communism in the eyes of the united states and supposedly ending history. however, 11 years later, civilizations clashed as president george w bush declared a war on terror before congress was the question of the end of u. s. a gemini is once again raised in the context of the defeat and f canister on is the so called west sounding of the precipice of a new historical epoch. joining me now is philosophers, lovers, your jack, author of the new book, heaven in disorder. slavery,

thanks so much for joining us. again, it's a tour de force is a book that informs everyday lives in whole new ways. i have to tell you you're playing on a mouse, quote, mouth saying there is great disorder in heaven. the situation is excellent. that what does the disorderly heaven look like? the one in which we live? no, i'm to my mouth. i texted precise lease again disorder, and marcia believed in best chance of us. she started to progress as my last study. please call me please go be here on earth so that we can walk. we can we, we actually realize what happening today. i being much more

dangerous the nisa in kevin week by i mean that we simply can rock morning tomorrow, especially in the short round. wish we cannot unite even on base seek value that won't allow broberg bank to me. it says look at the united states today. we can lease situation off or curious why this explains on. so the stands to back in a from until and this is logical. leave that going. don't deli, wrong. now i just found to be a fuse for being she's if i say something with more than ever wish you follow what you want. the way to gauge the loss of freedom and enlighten

me. and she said that, i mean, don't debate just you know, the last minute means debate then your opinion probably 3, but the say, i almost go very, i don't need to be in the near the side are going to be. so send each yes the bait. but when society comes conclusion we ship to be and do we beef again? it's impossible, but modern bucks you better to do it today. when you are in the united states and house, they don't begin going. and then 1st,

2nd you will trust floaties one day we are right in europe we, you have to have a 00 in the fish or saturday to get out. and then you're going to come to your was if you have to get us ambassador to talk about the floors and lift numbers. i mean, there are so many elements to this book with see what we're all going through before i get to the vaccines actually be you were watching on the screen, the taliban victory, the defeat of the united states. and you, i think the tie up in this book between the collective action and the beliefs of the taliban versus the fuzzy mercenaries. they're not conscripted. nato troops and the belief and collective action for investing in game stop and bit going you know, you know, why all the elements, their audience moment. again,

these guys, because it's very important. what you mention, it's our current connect release co in so called freedom gun. autumn is more and more professional armies. but do we have more and more in the west today, where basically our mercenaries on those in dish means they mostly know bro, but not the basin. they just need to follow whatever the site and be for me again, if a lot of momentous movement, saudi lunch movement off the next call axis, ax societies falling into do

a seems on the one i'm already every get strong due to just another just another. we can be already got all the junk people call these folks through logic or on the other hand we hear better who think to new way just standing. ruth? gus? no. there is any question and why this dangerous? no, i don't want you are not because my nation states i want, i think the only so you were us basing damage in human moral facing water. me remember what happened in the show restaurant rescue make their stage temperature almost well. college fair in

a minute. just just resend all these problems to my go. only be straight, but i'm not sure what you guys went, commitment be logical. we all have our own young. what is the new database of our lives? it's just some kind of new knowledge because of course, this leads to the criticism of that view is of course it ends up being in style in ism and that kind of arguably lazy response to the kind of thing you would just saying. but i run a key, it is that liberal environment in which you describe an ecology of fear and the dear that people are so frightened by climate catastrophe. you. i mean this book is coming out as young people. apparently the survey of 10000 people are

on the welding for intent. afraid to have children. there is a fear being propagated by the liberals. yes, sir, but i think no, we should go more in detail. i think mostly this fear of fake fear into the logic won't be friend or micro ma'am. i know how we piece, but they don't really believe the need. yes. or be selling and so on a some of my friends believe enough. my point that out there, he's got them. that's the best problem. week counts of the spirit. you know in this most scotty, but instead of blending opened, he got to do a little bit best to make us individually

response. you better be giving us if you don't dress, criticize, what did you do in your everyday life? to fight? don't mean your beat. you both sides go and your paper. yes, movies, but the fees, know you're much more advocate change in dia sophie. even be our entire way of life things, sir. yes. now it's no longer a strict just like to say price meaning no east. right? mean? well, i think gosh, we don't use low. do been to go from the start asking, jump because your bill was clear,

but merely will to hold for one better if we will not find most of the nation. we don't wanna spend a woman on show fear. i fear because fear chance is not a mobilizing force. i played fear, it's more water. oh gosh. do you see and you know, you're just, you are kind of, she made it, you just wait for read. read me that. and we talk about that liberal guilt and people eating out of paper, drinking yoga, drinking out of paper straws rather than plastic. but we are told to give to charity and you reproduce oscar wilde's famous quote about the evils of charity.

just remind us why charity as a response to all the got a strong consequences off capitalism. as you see, it is actually something that makes things worse for the poor and ordinary people. the company throughout the domain, golf and show state is your best on your own because she's been lying to got caught by being to try to do. but look at the big chart. okay. he made yes. some book beach, but he's daily. be in the morning, keith. the morning he spent hours in berlin for speak with a free we've gone, he's gone. then he can be used to be back in the same week. we've been a great guardian,

but the thing the most less got me to least for me young face. yes. these go. sure. be. but you know, i'm only here, you're still you. if he's not giving driving back in this situation, so that will not be with me. so i'll still be there more from lots of slides. your check off to the break plus we talk possibility and the future of humanity and neoliberalism within to chicago from en route reynolds. ah man, a cost involved the 3rd to focus bittman lowball here but me. oh yeah. oh oh

i . oh god me. i understand. i oh right now, there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or obese. it's possible to sell food that is fatty and sugary and faulty and addicted. not at the individual level. it's not individual willpower. and if we go on believing that will never

change as obesity epidemic, that industry has been in fluids thing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment, ah, what driving the vehicle, its corporate, me ah, welcome back. i'm still here with one of the world's greatest philosophers level as you check. well, just just finally, if one turns on another channel right now, one could probably see. so go mainstream media in nature, nations talking about climate change, how we should be proud of a de facto mercenary for us and how we should give to charity. but there won't be any news about julian assange who is in jail just down the road from the studio. why in this book, do you adopt, maxwell can i'm as quote about the idea that don't dare talk about chinese protest is in hong kong or bella, luce, if you don't care about julian,

it's the most bang i'm so you don't be, don't know, we don't, we know we're going to be the spirit of you know, pretty we experience for freedom. if you go, if you are in some sense for monday free, you know what you're going to. so the way when you want enjoyment warm, but the safety space 3 don't. these are going to be $40.00 money or later you what you experienced or throw is your freedom. what is today? it's no longer working class or even some kind of restaurant. thank you and you know the system. you think us what he can get, what we can be over here in liver thinking,

i know that you got you are even a smaller never got the least you are 3. you can make these contract gone. no longer work. guess you need be, and they say you more, your brother, your labor cost and your chevy or here or your work or least you see you are a dash 3 drawers. they say when they say they say yes, you know, people you want to see, you can invest a little bit of money that you get into your sounds and so on. and you have to do a li, narrow your freedom savage. you check. thank you. well,

if jack solution to the relentless chaos facing the world is communism. another book examining the existential crises facing the world today argues that just identifying the structural issues inherent with a new liberalism is enough to stop changing it to a treatise on possibility, perspectives on humanity hereafter, by interest yukari frontman. reynolds is a collection of essays that explores issues from nuclear war to climate change to political polarization, through the prism of the capital structures that drive them going underground. deputy editor charlie cook spoke to him earlier the brow. thank you so much. coming back on going underground, you written books before, but this is not just the kind of companion piece to your album. this is more would you would you call it manifesto. it's just the explosion of the some things i've considered, i think, as you say, it's not,

it's not so much me just delving in and explaining the lyrics to help define, guide them through our thought process. it's much more of a sort of exploration of the world that we live in really and just explain the kind of central concept latrice. it's on possibility and it's a 2. it's a double edged sword that and the thing being possible. but of everything being possible, just explain the kind of central concept of possibility. it's able to see this just incredibly broad like it can still mean wherever you want any can lead you down it any road. what i find interesting with, with album title, where we, the choice to use everything is possible is because we don't really have much of a choice in it, so to speak, you know, like now our technology has progressed to such an incredible point. and we also have wisdom hasn't really kept up with it. so it creates the flight fascinating point wherever, as a species which is where we're so so powerful,

but we haven't really learned how to deal with this power. and therefore we in a grave danger of kind of destroying ourselves completely, which is one of the big so aspects of the, of the book we're looking to existential wrist. yeah. i would like to come back to humanities, future, or lack thereof, as it may be. but how important was it for you when, when writing this is a lot of literatures of this kind is elitist or inaccessible. how important was it for you to write something which can, which anyone can read? anyone can understand the kind of concepts within i think that was one of the most important bits for me really. i think the thing is if i had had these kind of these books and these kind of inroads into these subjects as a, as a kid myself, i would have been out of grown up a lot more competent or not more a lot most of infused thing and passionate about exploring these, these big subjects. i think my thing is all about of in courage is like the

intrigue of the youth instead of disliked bludgeoning them down. again, this is how it's all about of withholding of the imagination, which i think is one of the most dangerous things that humanity can do because it's one of our best traits. so you know, we are created species when it comes to a possibility. i want to make clear that it doesn't touch upon the dish is in a vague way again and again when it comes to going to climate change or political lying, or the polarization law while you bring it back and back to new liberalism and all kind of the capital, a sister in which we live, are you surprised how often? all of these arrows always came back to the concept and liberalism when you are writing. and i think i've got to the point now because of the so much the research that i've done and you know, in the, in the book i talk about from the bus i view. so like, take yourself out of like the territorial rabbit, spying out on the ground. you know, the tribal is in the hostility, that is just rife in society a moment and just look at things from

a systems perspective. that is really the most important thing for me. because we're, we're not encouraged to view things when on courage to zoom out and view things from the border perspective. really, i mean, not given a chance to at any point because you know, each of our personal lives is such a struggle merely to stay afloat anyway. that that was probably the pivotal thing for me, but the book is just always trying to encourage people to zoom out and see the links and see what the root cause is about problems are because where often so kind of lead to just create. so of, you know, a class is like band aid like to our problems and instead of actually tree thing, the real, you know, disease which a so often leads us back to the profit. my most say that leaves us back to individual ism, to neoliberalism, to this narrative, that we're all completely independent of each other, which goes against all, you know, the say she ology and psychology and,

and how we grew and evolved the space she, when, when you see this kind of overarching structure, your book advocates, hope over blind optimism. just explain that concept because it does seem increasingly once you kind of see the cage i'm, it's not hard to hope in a way. that's why it's so important. i think to make these, these concepts which, you know, most people don't really think about existential risks a day to day basis or like the, the core traits of capitalism. how effects are public health than how it drops our ecology. so i think encouraging people to gently gain a broader understanding is like the, you know, just the pivotal thing. well, let's talk about acceptance with them. because one of the things that was really interesting that you come back to in your book is about the 2 tools that humanity has its disposal. and there's a really conversation and talking and violence being the other one. again, when you say you're not complete and you think about, well what, what do we have?

our disposal is literally, we can communicate with each other, or we can use brute force. and that's basically what we have as a species. and the ways in which we're encouraged to communicate at the moment. so if we look at social media as the main example, you know, that's how we really converse with most people in our lives and definitely with strangers. the ways in which social media are structured kind of lead us not to communicate, but actually the opposite. there's been a lot of research done in as soon as you take away the face and it's just text, we're much more likely to humanize others. now you look at social media and you see that fake news travel 6 times faster than like real concrete kind of factual base news on twitter. all these ways they're just kind of encouraging us to hostility, encouraging us to violence effectively. so again, there's a real structural problem with the ways that we now communicate with with each

other and in the 21st century. and in the cuts on the i, the end game about which is potential kind of nuclear annihilation. but let's look at the other existential risk of climate change. and you said it's kind of talking seems to be a way to get around there. but we had so many climate summits meetings, the ip cc, we've got the call coming up. even though they're all the summit game on, it does seem like the climate battle is spinning. it's wheel somewhere within government. huge amount of progress being made. how, how do you, how do you push forward in the arena? as you say, it's been something that we've just we failed, i think fairly miserably. i think one of the reasons is because we just haven't gone to the core of it. we haven't really grabbed a big oil by the bowls and like actually saw it. so in the whole industry out at the moment, it's still heavily subsidized and supported. and if you look at the

energy industry, it's displaying so much of the behavior that we saw from the tobacco industry as it started to be revealed decades ago. the tobacco cause it caused this lung cancer epidemic. they then spent so much money, you know, misleading the public into missed information, lobbying of government to bring in laws that kept their industry safe. there's literally billions every year from the, the big names in, in oil. we're off again, all of that, which is again, if you look at it, it's the profit motive, you know, i don't think really think these people are evil that they've let 3. they're just protecting their incentives. so i don't think we should you know, demonize, these people in the, in a very reductive way that,

that evil or something. i think again, we actually just have to look at the core motives so, so i have faith, but it means again looking at actual core issues and changing things on a, on a real structural scale. one of the areas that a lot of people pointed to a new point to me is kind of youth movements. but yeah, i to keep talking about so maybe the more pessimistic aspect, the things rebellion protest and now led to the u. k. government cracking down on rights to protest within the u. k. and you mentioned before about fossil fuel lobbying it. now, how, what do you say to people who would say that all of this in the face of massive government push back massive industry pushback that there is no hope? i think the yeah, the things that i've given me hope over the years. how have been, especially recently did the youth climate mover because the degree of understanding, i think such an early age, you know, this was not

a degree of understand i achieved by, you know, when i was way through high school like it really is different now. but they have grown up in a world feeling completely detached from what has come before them. you know, they see the issues, they see what has gone wrong. and i know that targets and i think there's a real real determination and a real passion there that perhaps was missing from like my generation even. but certainly generations above about fills me with hope because i think these people, the fact that they, you know, this is, these are passionate, clever people. they're going to go into these industries and disrupt them from the inside. they're going to go into law and disrupt them. from, from the law aspects of it, you know, things like being a car side. finally, starting to become considered to be a crime against humanity. that's going to be huge. so i think there's going to be all these ways that people attack what has come before and start making real change

possible. and just finally, i should ask because honestly your a tory musician, the government. last time you came on the show, we talked about how the government is maybe undermining some favors, more rarefied all the options in the allies. and you are a lassitude, richardson, i have you on the response to any of your appeal to government or or how's your opinion changed since that on how that handling the odds? no, no, it hasn't really changed. i think it's been one of the, the most effects that industry by the pandemic. and it's being, i think, one of the least kind of aided and helped. and we haven't seen any like big youth or anything. but again, it's not really sure. i think in a society that to some extent discourage is imagination of course, but i know exactly going to support the hans. so it's not something surprise me and you know, i didn't expect the response but i think was being great as being

a communal response from the industries i'm from the, the, the office and everyone involved. that's been really encouraging. and you know, that's something that, you know, i don't think our government can can take away from us, like, well, good to leave it on an optimistic, ronald. thank you so much. thanks for having a reynolds speaking to going underground jeopardy editor charlie cook. that's for the show will be back on wednesday to continue our coverage over the 2 year anniversary of the lead up to the us led war in afghanistan with an adviser in nato, in the former half can president that you have gone until then. keep in touch with social media and let us know what means you support to change the well the join me every thursday on the alex simon show. when i'll be speaking to guess on the world, the politics sport business. i'm show business. i'll see you then. in

the moon, the the break news again tell you by this hour a multiple injuries and the shooting at a central russian university. the ledge, the tucker is being detained. one student described what he saw, my friends and i was standing at the parking lot near the entrance where the gunshot journey and sold the shooter. you've been doing commuters to will shut down what i chose, a sorry is not enough. neither is the money, the family of $10.00 afghan civilians killed by us strike him on justice. washington says no one will be punished for the dead. no one can come and say to.