front, man, all this, i'm all coming up in today's going underground. the 1st 31 years ago on this day, german reunification was ratified closing the book on communism in the eyes of the united states and supposedly ending history. however, 11 years later, civilizations clashed as president george w bush declared a war on terror before congress was the question of the end of u. s. a gemini is once again raised in the context of the defeat and f canister on is the so called west sounding of the precipice of a new historical epoch. joining me now is philosophers, lovers, your jack, author of the new book, heaven in disorder. slavery, thanks so much for joining us. again, it's a tour de force is a book that informs everyday lives in whole new ways. i have to tell you you're playing on a mouse, quote, mouse saying there is great disorder in heaven. the situation is excellent. what does the disorderly heaven look like? the one in which we live? no, i'm to my mouth. i checked the top precisely. again,

disorder under mauer still believed in best chance of us. she started to progress as my last study. please call me go be here on earth so that we can walk. we can we, we actually happening today. i games is being much more dangerous. the decent order in kevin week, by the, i mean, we simply can rock morning tomorrow, especially in the show us, we cannot unite even on base seek value that won't allow broberg bank to mean they're going to see it says,

look at the united states today. we lease away from the off or tv. this explains on. so the stands to back in a from until and this is in the logical lead going, don't deli wrong. now i just found to be a fuse for being if i say something with more than which you follow what you want the way to gauge the loss of freedom and enlighten and set to set the light mean don't debate just you know, the last minute means debate then your opinion probably, but to say, i almost go very, i don't need to be in a new plan. you are going to be so sandy, jim. yes,

the bait. when society comes conclusion, we have to be doing the beef again. it's in buffy. but modern bucks you better to do it today. when you're in the united states, if you're in the house, they don't begin don't. and then 1st, 2nd, you'll trust slower use one. for today we are right in europe. we, you have to have as 00 in the fish, to get out and then you're going to come to your was to get us ambassador to talk about the floors and lift numbers. i mean, there are so many elements to this book with see what we're all going through

before i get to the vaccines actually be you were watching on the screen, the taliban victory, the defeat of the united states. and you, i think the tie up in this book between the collective action and the beliefs of the taliban versus the fuzzy mercenaries. they're not conscripted. the nato troops and the belief and collective action for investing in game stop and bit going you know, you know, why all the elements their audience moment. again, these guys, because it's very important. what you mention, it's our current release co in so called freedom gun, autumn. these are more and more professional armies. but the situation that we have more and more indirect today, where basically our mercenaries in bish

weems day, mostly no broken or not the basin data, just need to follow whatever the site. and this for me again, is a lot of momentous movement like movement off the miss the call axis action society of falling into do a seems on the one i'm going to be strong due to just another just i'm not going to be already got already chunk cody spoke truth logic or on the other can we hear better? who but he's been neutral way, just standing groups,

but of course not aspects. there is any fashion and why this dangerous no one knew or not because it made nation states i want. i think the only so you were us facing damage and even more facing water. me remember what happened in the show restaurant mission, their stage temperature almost college fair in a minute. just just resend all these problems to my go. only be like straight, but i'm not even what do you think you're in gay? grant commitment, be logical. we all have our own young. what is the new database of our lives? if just some guy know new knowledge, of course this leads to the criticism of that view is of course it

ends up in installing ism and that kind of arguably lazy response to the kind of thing you would just saying. but i run a key, it is that liberal environment in which you describe an ecology of fear and the dear that people are so frightened by climate catastrophe. you. i mean, this book is coming out as young people about the, the survey of 10000 people around the welding for intent. afraid to have children. there is a fear being propagated by the liberals. yes, here, but i didn't know we could go more in detail. i think mostly this fear a fake fear logic in friend dresser micro ma'am. i know how we piece, but they don't really believe we need yes or be selling this and so

on. some of my friends, my point that out there, he's got problems. we count on the spear, you know, in re scotty, but instead of blending or opened, he got to do a little bit better to make us individually response. you better be for your giving us your don't dress, criticize what did you do in your everyday life? to fight global warming your beat, you both sides go and it's on your face. jordan? yes, movies, but the fees, know you're much more advocate change in dia,

show. she seems to even be our entire way of life things, sir. yes. now, it's no longer a structural piece, like to say price meaning no. i mean, when i think, gosh, we dining is low. do been trying to go from the start asking, for example, because you're billed each year, but merely it will have to hold for one another one if we will not find most of the nation. we don't wanna spend care woman. i'm sure, peter, i fear because fear chance is not a mobilizing for us. i played fear, it's more was gosh, do you see and you know, you're just, you are kind of, she made it,

you just wait for read, read me that. and we talk about that liberal guilt and people eating out of paper, drinking yoga, drinking out of paper straws rather than plastic. but we are told to give to charity. and you reproduce oscar wilde's famous quote about the evils of charity. just remind us why charity as a response to all the strong consequences off capitalism. as you see, it is actually something that makes things worse for the poor and ordinary people. the company throughout a domain called show state. these are best until because she's been lying to got caught

by being to try to do, but look at the big char. ok. he may yet be back. he's daily. be in the morning. the morning he spends our entry speak with a think we're going to be gods, but then he can be used to be back in the same week. we've been trying to god the most bless copy the least for me. young face. yes, yes. he's going to be, but you know, i'm only here yesterday you, if he's not giving driving back in this situation so that we look people we know me. so i'll still be there more from lots of us,

larger up to the break. plus we talk possibility and the future of humanity and, and the liberalism within to chicago from en route reynolds. in the us, democrats talk endlessly about the so called january 6 interaction. there were less concerned with the real possibility general mark, milly, when constitutionally ro, also the art of stabbing an ally in the back is theory. the i don't know, i mean there's some steps in there were rescuing the food that they were not scabbing or were rescuing resources that are still good. this is best buy march 21st, which is in 2 days. all these potatoes, paula pianos, onions, all of these came from waste brown sources. this is great for me

because i'm always looking for a way to give things away. dr. because the tax laws, you know, definitely do benefit the wealthier people and our society. so that makes sense for them to throw it out right off, rather than give it to somebody who could use it. and then that person is not going to buy it. the welcome back. i'm still here with one of the world's greatest philosophers. slow is your check. well, just, just finally, if one turns on another channel right now, one could probably see. so go mainstream media and they donations talking about climate change, how we should be proud, defacto mercenary force. yes. and how we should give to charity, but they won't be any news about julian assange who is in jail just down the road from the studio. why in this book, do you adopt, maxwell can i'm as quote about the idea that don't dare talk about chinese protest is in hong kong or bella, luce, if you don't care about julian,

it's the most so you don't be, don't know, we don't, we, we know we're all good spirit, you know pretty we experience for freedom. if you go, if you know the rest you are in, some you paid for by the 3. do you want to so the way where you want enjoyment? one, but please safely the space 3 don't be for the 40 money or late you what you experience for throw as you're pretty pretty late today. it's no longer working class or even some kind of restaurant thing. you and you know, the thing is spoofing. cash flow. king good thing. good area, school b, o. history. never thinking,

i know that you gotta, you gotta you, when you are a smaller level, got the least you are 3. you can make these guns. no real good work. guess you need be. they say you a small your, your labor cost and you will surely or here or your work or least you see the show you our address. we pretty sure they say when they, let's say they say yes, you people, you want to see, you can invest a little bit of money that you get into your sounds. and so wanted to do a li, narrow your salary check. thank you. well,

if jack solution to the relentless chaos facing the world is communism. another book examining the existential crises, facing the world today argues that just identifying the structural issues inherent within your liberalism is enough to start changing its a treatise on possibility, perspectives on humanity hereafter. by and to chicago, re frontman, reynolds is a collection of essays that explores issues from nuclear war to climate change to political polarization. through the prism of the capitalist structures that drive them going underground. deputy editor charlie cook spoke to him earlier. the route. thank you. so i was going back on going underground. you written books before, but this is not just the kind of companion piece to your album. this is more would you would you call a manifesto. it's just a explosion of some things i've considered, i think, as you say, it's not,

it's not so much me just delving in and explaining the lyrics to help you find, you know, guide them through our thought process. it's much more of a sort of expiration of the world that we live in really and just explain the kind of central concept you call a treatise on possibility. but it's a 2, it's a double edged sword that and the thing being possible, but also everything being possible. just explain the kind of central concept of that back possibility is able to see this just incredibly broad, like it can still of mean wherever you want. and it can lead you down it any road. what i find interesting with, with album tile, where we, the choice to everything is possible is because we don't really have much of a choice in it, so to speak. you know, like now our technology has progressed to such an incredible point. and we also have wisdom hasn't really kept up with it. so it creates the flight fascinating point. wherever, as

a species which is where we're so so powerful. but we haven't really learned how to deal with this power, and therefore we in a great grave danger of kind of destroying ourselves completely, which is one of the big aspects of the, of the book we look into existential wrist. yeah, i would like to come back, humanities, future, or lack thereof, as it may be. but how important was it for you when, when writing this is a lot of literature of this kind is elitist or inaccessible. how important was it for you to write something which can, which anyone can read, anyone can understand the kind of concepts within i think that was one of the most important bits for me really. i think, you know, i was just thinking if i had had these kind of these books and these kind of inroads into these subjects as a, as a kid myself, i would have been out of growing up a lot more confident and not more a lot most of infused thing and passionate about exploring these, these big subjects. i think my thing is all about encouraging like the intrigue of

the youth instead of dislike bludgeoning them down. again, this is how it's all about of withholding of the imagination, which i think is one of the most dangerous things that humanity can do because it's one of our best traits. so you know, we are created species when it comes to a possibility. i want to make clear that it doesn't touch upon the, this isn't a vague way again and again when it comes to going to climate change or political lying, or the polarization of law while you bring it back and back to near liberalism and all kind of the capital system in which we live, were you surprised how often? all of these arrows always came back to the concept in the liberalism when you are writing. and i think i've got to the point now because of the so much the research that i've done and you know, in the, in the book i talk about it from the birds i view. so like, take yourself out of like the territorial rabbit, spying out on the ground. you know, the tribal is in the hostility, that is just rife in society a moment and just look at things from

a systems perspective. that is really the most important thing for me. because we're, we're not encouraged to view things. when encouraged to zoom out and view things from the border perspective, really, i'm not given a chance to at any point because you know, each of our personal lives is such a struggle merely to stay afloat anyway. so that was probably the pivotal thing for me, but the book is just always trying to encourage people to zoom out and see the links and see what the root causes of our problems are because we're often so kind of lead to just create. so of, you know, a class is like band aid like to our problems and instead of actually treating the real, you know, disease which a so often leads us back to the profit. my might say that leaves us back to individual ism, to neoliberalism, to this narrative, that we're all completely independent of each other, which goes against all, you know, the so she ology and psychology and, and how we grew and evolved as

a specie. but when, when you see this kind of overarching structure, your book advocates hope over blind optimism, just explain that concept because it does seem increasingly once you kind of see the cage, it's not hard a to hope in a way. that's why it's so important. i think to make these, these concepts which, you know, most people don't really think about, it's essential risks they on, on day to day basis or like the core traits of capitalism. how effects are public health than how it disrupts our ecology. so i think encouraging people to gently gain a broader understanding is like that, you know, just the pivotal thing. well, let's talk about at the time with them because one of the things that was really interesting that you come back to in your book is about the 2 tools that humanity has its disposal. and those are really conversation and talking and violence being the other one. again, when you say you're not complete and you think about, well what, what do we have?

our disposal is literally, we can communicate with each other or we can use brute force. and that's basically what we have either species and the ways in which we're encouraged to communicate at the moment. so if we look at social media as the main example, you know, that's how we really converse with most people in our lives and definitely with strangers. the ways in which social media are structured kind of lead us not to communicate, but actually the opposite. there's been a lot of research done in as soon as you take away the face and it's just text, we're much more likely to humanize others. may look at social media, you see that fake news trouble 6 times faster than like real concrete kind of factual base news on twitter. all these ways that are just kind of encouraging us to hostility, encouraging us to violence effectively. so that, again, that there's a real structural problem with the ways that we now communicate with,

with each other in the, in the 21st century. and in the book talks on the, the end game about which is potential kind of nuclear annihilation. but let's look at the other existential risk of climate change. you said is kinda talking seems to be a way to get around that. but we had so many climate summits meetings, the ip cc, we've got the call coming up. even though they're already so much going on. it does seem like the climate battle is spinning its wheel somewhere within government. so the huge amount of progress being made. how, how do you, how do you push forward in that arena? as you say, it's been something that we've just, we failed. i things like fairly miserably. i think one of the, the reasons is because we just haven't gone to the core of it. we haven't really grabbed big oil by the bowls and like actually start it. so in that whole industry out at the moment, it's still heavily subsidized and supported. and if you look at the

energy industry, it's displaying so much of the behavior that we saw from the tobacco industry as it started to be revealed decades ago, the tobacco cause it caused this lung cancer epidemic. they then spent so much money, you know, misleading the public inter missed information, lobbying of government to bring in laws that kept their industry safe. there's literally billions every year from the, the big names in, in oil. we're off against all of that, which is again, if you look at it, it's the profit motive, you know, i don't think really think these people are evil that they've let 3 bad just protecting their incentives. so i don't think we should you know, demonize, these people in the, in a very reductive way that,

that evil or something. i think again, we actually just have to look at the core motives so, so i have faith, but it means again looking at actual core issues and changing things on a, on a real structural scale. one of the areas that a lot of people pointed to a new point to me is kind of youth movements. but again, i keep talking about so maybe the more pessimistic aspect, the things rebellion protest and now led to the u. k. government cracking down on rights to protest within the u. k. and you mentioned before about fossil fuel lobbying it. now, how, what do you say to people who would say that all of this in the face of massive government push back massive industry pushback that there is no hope? i think the yeah, the things that i've given me hope over the years. how have been, especially recently did the youth climate movements because the degree of understanding, i think, such an early age, you know, this was not

a degree of understand i had achieved by, you know, when i was way through high school like it really is different now but they have grown up in a world feeling completely detached from what has come before them. you know, they see the issues, they see what has gone wrong. and i know that targets and i think there's a real real determination and a real passion there. but perhaps was missing from like, my generation even, but certainly generations above that fills me with hope. because i think these people, the fact that they, you know, this is, these are passionate, clever people. they're going to go into these industries and disrupt them from the inside. they're going to go into law and disrupt them from, from the law aspects of it. you know, things like seeing e cause side finally starting to become considered to be a crime against humanity. that's going to be huge. so i think there's going to be all these ways that people attack what has come before and start making change

possible. and just finally, i said, because obviously your tori musician, the government, last time you came on the show, we talked about how the government is maybe undermining some favors and we'll rarefied all the options and the dollars 0. alas, a to richie said, i have you on the response to any of your appeal to government or, or has your opinion changed since that on how that handling the off? no, no, it hasn't really change. i think it's been one of the, the most effects that industries by the panoramic and it's being, i think, one of the least kind of aided and helped. and we haven't seen any like big utah or anything. but again, it's not really sure. i think in a society that to some extent discourage is imagination of course, but i know exactly going to support the hans. so it's not something it surprised me and you know, i didn't expect the response but i think was being great as,

as being the sort of communal response from the industries i'm from the, the artist and everyone involved. that's been really encouraging. and you know, that's something that, you know, i don't think our government can can take away from us, like, well, good to leave it on an optimistic, ronald. thank you so much. thanks for having me. reynolds speaking to going underground jeviana to charlie cook. that's it for the show will be back on wednesday to continue our coverage over the 2 year anniversary of lead up to the us led war in afghanistan with an adviser, the nato, and the former have can president jeff connie until then keep in touch with social media and let us know what means you support to change the well mm. ah. you know, one thing we don't talk about america is class or other countries from class war like great britain is a prime example. but in america typically, you know,

take stuff now. yeah. ah, working machine, she popped in, she said, well, i'm getting ready to go shopping for christmas and we, we think there was a good buy another shooting another safe part of american life. shattered by violence. the gunman was armed with an a r 1570 automatic rifle. when the issue comes home, it's time to act when we're fire was on this issue. the other side, when by default lady that lived over there, i was walking one of the dogs. she said, why do you wear again, were you scared? and they took it off and i think the people need to take responsibility in their own hands and be prepared if those kinds of weapons were less available. we

wouldn't have a lot of shootings and we certainly wouldn't have the number that i the britain and the e u. condemn russia's parliamentary elections. as the few remaining votes accounted 6 deaths and multiple injuries and the shooting of a university in central russia. the alleged attacker is under arrest one student describes what he saw. my friends and i was standing at the parking lot near the entrance where the gunshot journey and filled a shooter standing 20 meters away with his shotgun. the suspect was arrested by a single police officer who entered the building after we heard about the gunshot. he reached his.