playing the role of global hagaman. i mean the role which had had assigned to itself. glove was do more g. the cattle and separately the cows, putting them on a release from catherine easily. but it's an extradition hearing hand ex mountains . it holds his attention overnight after almost 4 years on the run from the spanish government as european low make as bronze at rest at his grades in the year. know if it is jo biden's approval rating, slowly falling around to devise a policies with the u. s. president, now less popular than his predecessor and possible future rival, donald trump, and germany said that she that next chancellor,

after 16 years of angular market down for special coverage online and on throughout the weekend. headline for your next 8th crosstalk station. ah, ah ah, ah. hello and welcome to cross hog were all things are considered on peter lavelle when it comes to the rise of china. and most of the commentary focuses on such things as strategic balance and the west. so called rules based order. however, what is missing in this discussion? is the rise of civilization, but challenges western had gemini, is the west prepared for this arc of history? the

cross talking the arc of history. i'm joined by my guess, george m u l e. in budapest, he's a pod counselor at the gag, which can be found on youtube and locals. and in sydney we cross to jo loria. he's the editor in chief of consortium news dot com, or a gentleman, cross type rules and effect. that means he can jump in in time you want, and i always appreciate. let me go to jo 1st because it's past midnight in sydney, so thank you very much for staying up and joining us. it's very much appreciated, joe, and you're actually closer to the china than the rest of us here. you know, when i look at the discussion, as i said in my introduction, you know, we can talk about arms and proliferation. and we can talk about the rules based order and all of that. but with the west tearing itself apart at the seams here. you know, you may look at a more competent chinese culture and civilization. it seems to me, a lot of people in the west are actually missing this misunderstanding. but there's a huge challenge in this century about who will dominate,

or at least how there could be co existence. do you think that the west is quite in my mind, quite blind to all of these things? they see very little things they see a tree, but they don't see the forest. what's your reaction? go ahead, joe. i'm not sure we can talk about the west as a whole right now in particularly and view of what happened with this australia and u. k. and us defense back to that, arrogantly thrust france aside. i think this is an anglo saxon issue. britain ruled for centuries, their empire, i mean an $877.00 c. so rhodes said he wanted to bring the whole of the civilized world under british rule, and they were recovered. the u. s. for the making of an anglo saxon race make one and part of the anglo saxon race. churchill, in 1946 iron curtain speech talked about measuring the us and british military together. so they would work together with the british empire. he already saw that the british empire was pretty much over at that point and he wanted to join britain to the united states. and then of course,

britain in $48.00 the last then for palestine. they gave up on an india and certainly $956.00 of the suez crisis. was really the end when united states stood up to britain. that was the final point where the united states to go over the relationship and britain decided to join itself to the u. s. empires as an anglo saxon empire. but today we now see the rise of china. it's alliance growing alliance with russia. this alarms more the anglo saxon countries than i think, britain and france. and even in germany, we saw what happened after the ukraine functions during business. and we're not happy at all about german sanctions on russia. here we see now this deal that took place here in the trailer and in britain and in the u. s. was really big news here in australia before was even mentioned in the u. s. because they are, they're joining the big boys in the united states. we see now that france was cut out of the deal. they weren't even told until they read it in the papers that

they're deal. if i had with a trailer from submarines had been disregarded and torn up by the australian and they were now, the strands are not going to get these nuclear power subs built by the u. s. and the u. k. what happened is that france now is even talking about building up the european army. there was a story in the daily telegraph this week that france was willing to give up its seat to create a european union seat up. the un security council that had been discussed for those per spun and un for 25 years. that was an old discussion from more than a decade ago. but of course, britain would never give up its veto, and france would not give up a treat. now, britain is no longer part of the you, it will never lose ill, keep its veto. france has denied this story, but i wonder whether there aren't discussions to the point where, well, i mean, but, but joe, you kind of reinforcing my point here. i mean it, when i use the word, the west i, where we're on the same page, it, but we have a very divided west year and greater division. let me go to let me get georgia tech

. i want to go home and i can trans france and germany. now we'll see that and natural partners of russia and china bill, after all, they're part of your age or that the western tip of your asia is europe. this may be a real big turning point. we're cramps and the rest of europe. that's why we're doing that time dependence from the us. that's why we're doing this program george way. and we have heard here because i, you know, me, i cherish the enlightenment. and so much of the world actually does to a not post modernism, the nonsense that is coming out of the us right now. but, you know, with so many divisions and, and arguments about what a good society is all about. and i see it in the west, it's great, greater sense, very much weekend and not prepared for the challenges that are ahead because the chinese don't have those doubts there and they have no doubt whatsoever. actually go ahead, george. i think it's a very good point. the chinese don't have,

on the other hand, the, the chinese model isn't particularly appealing if so, the, the conflict that's taking place now between china and the west and was just, you know, we just use that nomenclature for the time being. isn't really an 80 a logical, it's not about right or which system is superior. i mean, the chinese are not, not attempt to export their model and their model isn't particularly appealing to other countries. now the issue is when, when you have a rising power, that obviously the status quo powers will do whatever they need to do in order to restrain the rising power. as happened, the course in the case of germany at the end of the 20th century. but the problem was that china is facing, is that the is always the, is the rising power. but if you are going to be rising, you have to use your power responsibly and i'm not short chinese doing that. i mean,

trying to go to self into all sorts of quarrelled with its neighbors. leave aside the united states is going to close with neighbors. remember the, the dispute in the south china seas, which went against china, that the world court ruled against china. that was the case brought by the philippines and then we have no other countries in the region, vietnam, malaysia, all of which also threatened as a china to the world court. so that's the problem the china has with it with its neighbors. and then of course, there is the big 900 pound gorilla in the road, which is the origin zip code. and you know, millions upon millions of people have died all over the world. trillions upon trillions of trillions of economic value has been destroyed and then needs to be some sort of a proper inquiry about. then he said chime in response to the phone or silly,

silly accusations against other states. and there's no help the rest of the world which has an right to find out about the origin. yeah, that's my job to get to the bottom of george and i've talked many, many times about this. it looks like the by the ministration is not particularly interested in finding out about that here, joe, let me go back to you. i mean, i'm, this is not an ideological struggle, and i'm really glad that that's being point out here in, in, in some ways that people are calling it a cold war. it's a cold war coming from one direction and that's the west. but let's put that aside . here, i mean, you started out by talking about this nuclear submarine deal and arcos, if that's the way you pronounce it, but the chinese counter with the wrote in belts, okay. i mean, they're much more focused on so many different issues because they see very, very long term. the us seems to be obsessed with military dominance. and that goes just so far. but when you look at, you know, the, the things that time is leaving, you know, a legacy now building ports and bridges and all kinds all around the,

the ration base and, and that talks ok, the number of you know, submarines and aircraft carriers mean something maybe now, but not long term, go ahead, joe. valley, but now they're not going to get the submarine. so 24. that's right. one a year from now. but look the english section. empires, like i said, the us and british, they are desperate for just as than they have lost what they had for centuries. dominating the world us is a bully, primarily, and bullies really don't want to fight. they want to just throw their weight around and get their way through intimidation, but of course it's very dangerous because they could have unintended consequences. so this issue of losing the world of falling through their fingers right now, and they could only weigh the united states and britain can respond to the rise of china is true military threats and rearmament. and this is extremely dangerous. they need to wake up and realize that they are no longer the predominant power in the world. and then they need to work equally with other states,

with china and with russia and with the developing countries. and i don't see that happening right now. they are going down this very dangerous road of militarization of the entire issue. yes, it's not really ideological, it's about power and united states and britain a hanging on do not want to lose this power. it's not illusory. after this time for, for decades. now, this power has been slipping away. we serve inklings of this happening during the iraq war in this, at the un security council, germany and france did not go at the us and britain to invade. right. that was the biggest split sense to go briefly pull nato french out of nato. that was at the moment when france and germany could just start looking at going their own way and independent from the u. s. and getting on more equal terms with russia and china, and i think that we might be seeing this now this deal has maybe been the last breach. i don't know, they might patch it up, but france is pretty damn angry right now. and they, if they can get this going to be new government and germany says no way of knowing

exactly how they would what that new government would do. but the idea that france and germany, which run the european union, what would want more independence from the u. s build up a european, an army, and better their relations with russia and china and quit hurting those relations as europe and dependent on gas and go with what's natural for them. not this artificial american dominance that is, that they have, you should get that yoke off. europe needs to get the alter the well, let me get it one minute before we go to the right. but george, this is something i mean rationally in a real, a sense, this is exactly what should happen. but id all, he gets in the way and petty hatred. i would say george, before we go to the break, go ahead. i obviously it is something that happened this alliance is another official creation. it was created in the also the world war 2. and he has just continued on also the end of the cold war. and it was a great deal of coercion that involved and of course colleges on the part of the

european refused to make the important decisions they needed to have made, which was the dissolved nato after the end of the goal. and to work out more sensible, rational pulses for their own security, but instead they're stuck in this global alliance, which indeed can lead, have dangerous consequences and have already a dangerous. alright, going to jump in here. gentlemen, we're going to go to a short break. and after that short break, we'll continue our discussion on the arc of history. stay with our team. oh, i use in many costs and wanted to search and focus bittman. no volunteer, but me ha ha.

oh oh i. oh god. give me . i understand, i oh right now, there are 2000000000 people who are overweight or obese. it's profitable to sell food that is fatty and sugary and faulty and addicted. not at the individual

level. it's not individual willpower. and if we go on believing that will never change as obesity upcoming, that industry has been influencing very deeply. the medical and scientific establishment, ah, what's driving the obesity epidemic? it's corporate. me. ah. welcome back across ok, we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle to remind you, but discussing the arc of history. mm. mm. okay, let's go back to joe in sydney where it's after 12 midnight again. thank you for

the hang up so late. joe, you know, empires don't like to go away. they, they never willingly go away. ok. and on top of it and fires are sometimes conquered. but just as more often than not, they crumbled from within because they are corrupt. ok, they have corrupted leads. they have corrupt goals and they have disrespect for what we'll call today. citizens are the polity here. and this is one of the things that what really bothers me because, you know, we, in the american sense, we have american exceptionalism. and that exceptionalism never allows appear, or an equal peer. you can be a little peer, you can pat the u. k. on the head, you can pat friends on the top of the head, germany, etc. ok. and now we're at this ark of history right now, because if you want to preserve your civilization, you're going to have to find ways to resuscitate yourself within the, this is the argument i've had in george and i disagreed many times on this. but you know, the biggest problem, the us,

as with china is that the us needs to get its own house in order. and there's no indication that's going to happen. as matter fact, everyone talks about succession cultural civil war. and i don't see that getting any better, and that is not a very good foundation to look at this new competition on, on the world stage, go ahead. we actually write empires right from within. and there's many, many signs of that happening in the us. but the leadership has been able to fool people so far in the united states that they are the preeminent nation, that they are the exceptional nation that they're better than everybody else. and the public will not see that the defense spending all fence spending has taken away the basic dignities that other people in western countries enjoy like a national health system, for example. instead, that money poured more and more in the military and it's destroying from within the u. s. society. and i think it's up to the american people, if they ever can, to understand this and know that they've been lied to over and over and over again

about america's role in the world. that they're spreading democracy rather than maintaining an empire. the idea of an empire, something foreign to most americans were so obvious to everyone else. so if the american people could ever see that and wake up and this is kind of our mission, i can short news to keep drive at home. what the realities are about u. s. foreign policy and its impact inside the united states. they alone, i think the american people could force a change in direction, and then the u. s. could take its place as one among many nations, a powerful nation, a country that could still have a major role in the world, but not the dominant, want to not seek to control everyone else and act equally with other nations. that would be what we all hope for, but it doesn't look very good. does it, peter? not at all. and, and george, i mean, again, i mean, the fund a mental question is moving forward here, is that the u. s. the u. s. is predominant in many fields, still has a very tight control over international finance bill,

but that's dwindling away slowly but surely as countries trade in their own currencies. we have major financial institutions. i m f, world bank still controlled by the united states, but that's being questioned right now. and so, and of course the huge military that, you know, they were, you know, they would speak to the vehicle. i'm a crisis of 2020, but it didn't touch the. it never touches the military ever ever. ok. and we could talk about health care at another time here. but george, can the us ever look at another country as an equal peer? i mean, is it in their d n a to be able to start even thinking in those terms? go ahead. george. no, i don't think so. i think the he who has very much the, the, so as the greatest the nation daughters created. it has a destiny to be the leader of the world. this is universal and i'm all politicians . i mean, even i kind of a politician, i suppose it left like bernie sanders who subscribes to most of that. and so,

no america will not see others as legal, but this is where it does get very dangerous and where both the united states and china as the rising, have to be very, very careful. i mean, china can make all the points that he wants to about the american hedge money and american aggression and so on. so, but if it use a kind of dangerous policy of getting itself into conflict with it, they were as creating these artificial island ignoring rulings then that could escalate into a serious conflict. i mean, obviously we hope they doesn't, but there isn't definitely a real danger of conflict as there is over taiwan again. you know, all powers have to be very, very careful. and as we see in the 20th century intervals before, that great bows often are not capital you reckless policies, they don't take into account the interest and motivation of their rivals and get

those into horrific conflict. and of course, the fastest way of ceasing to be a grade is if you get it yourself, it's a long, protracted war that you don't know how to get out of here. but it's go back to sydney, joe the, the issue. and again, when you started out with this new alliance against china here, my candidate to respond to georgia is point here is that you have these entangling commitments here. and this is what you could even bolden a junior partner in alliance as well that we've been watching and got our back. i mean, again, good. does a farmer in ohio want to go to war over some rocks, 100 miles off of the coastline of china. see that this is what really bothers me. more alliances you have, the more there's a tendency for things to go wrong. wag the dog. put it shortly. go ahead, joe. you're absolutely right. the average foreman over doesn't really know what the heck's going on because he's not being told

a whole story by his corporate media. and he does it. he's still thinks that america's top dog and they get some i think some enjoyment about our identity anyway. american people, many of them that they think they're the best. in fact, the u. s. real quick while they're ahead because the longer they go down the road, the more chances are they're going to lose everything. and the rest of the world could suffer as george went shock correctly. it's a very dangerous situation here. so u. s. is russia and china, i've been offering. they're not as powerful us militarily. they don't want to war, but united states, i don't think united states wants a war with them. they know what the ultimate consequence of that could be, that they want to continue to bully their way through the china is building and the united states is bombing now. they just lost. they had to leave. afghanistan was never, there's to lose. they, in their parlance, they've lost have dentist and that's a key piece for the chinese belt remote initiative. so as they pull out of that, trying to it continues to bring in the rest of the world around infrastructure and

development. and not to say george had some good critiques of china is no question about that. but if the united states has to join in this world and join as an equal partner with others, and i, and until they do that, we're all our trouble. we're in a lot of dangerous situation where things can get out of hand in the south china sea in particular, but they're still flashpoints in, in europe as well. so. so this is a situation that u. s. people, i think it's in their hands to pressure their government. i'm not expecting that to happen soon to change course. but history, it's the writings on the wall is a demise of the anglo saxon supremacy. and that's what this is. and they can't let go of it. because they've had it for so long that can be just equal with others and other cultures other at nist, these other nations, they need to be on top that has to be challenged and defeated inside the u. s. for

us to be in a more safe and secure world. yeah. but i agree with you. but george, you know, i did a stint in finance and you know, there's, you know, there's one thing that's more powerful than fear and that's called greed. greed is more powerful than fear. and so, you know, when we look at this, the sub deal, which joe is actually right that they will be delivered until 2040. i mean, think of what's going to happen between now and then. but you know, also you and i have talked endlessly about the, the korean peninsula. i mean, the, the status quo satisfies a lot of people because it's one of the biggest defense outline. i'll lie for the defense of our but they don't want to see that go away. oh, we got a new alliance here. you know more ship feel. the thing is this greed here blinds people to geo politics and what's, what's good for you around security here. we see that hope this whole shenanigans going on with ukraine need more arms that need more return the us how that's going to help you crane. i don't have any ideas, but fact it won't. ok, so i mean,

the greed of empire is what's driving this. ok, and then we have all the trappings of woke up with it. go ahead. yes. agreed. and suddenly the united states economy has driven by military spending. it was in world war 2 that has been the primary driving force of he cannot make development. and the primary driving force of technological development, the computer industry, internet, everything as been as a result of american military spending. i think that a plurality of great powers is good for the world. i mean, i think that one of the enduring benefits of the cold war was that it enables a number of small powers to acquire leverage in the world. suddenly, you know, you may not have much political, military cloud,

but by playing all the great rivalries against. busy the great powers you could, if you had a lot of influence of countries like egypt, india back if they became significant play as well because of the, the rivalry when the united states. um, so you know, something of the sort may well happen now. and ideally, another thing is joe has pointed this out. if europe can free yourself from this artificial nato alliance, your good also become one of the great powers. and then i think that would indeed be a healthy balance among the great powers. and then there will be a great deal of freedom to maneuver small about that would be able to get that much more out of out of this case. now that it's, you know,

history is sort of against it. i mean, he's just suggest that great, don't like to lose the number one position. i just really enjoyed that number one supremacy. and he doesn't want to let that go. yeah, george, your middle name should be metro. nick or bismark here? 32nd, big 3rd. so i can see a job before we go, go ahead. yeah, the director is describing the online movement in europe to become non align between europe, russia, china and united states on the other side. and he also hit on the key point of what the real serious most important issue in the united states is that the military spending is gobbling up such a big part of the u. s. g d p. and it's it, the priming the american people of basic necessities and threatening the world. that is what has to change. that is the most important problem in the world right now. the u. s. over spending and relying on the military for their economy, they need to diversify their perfect ways and this program. ok, thanks. we've run out of time gentlemen. many thanks my guest in budapest and in

sydney. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our to see you next time and remember ah ah, me by the make know, you know, board is my number t's emerge . we don't have authority, we go to the back seen the whole world, leads to take action and be ready. people judge governors crisis with we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenges to response has been

massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are in need together in the ah the

ah me, the obesity epidemic is the most important international health problem. me let me tell you that i think we saw the basal into anything just from the factory. it's a man made tragedy ah, earlier my life i thought that my weight was all my fault. i felt like a failure and.