the good news the news i'm action or 70, we're going underground on the eve of german british doug elections. and it's the new cold war coming up in the show as russia nod stream to pipeline eccentric stage in german elections. and it made a nuclear rel between front usa and britain. we ask germany's former permanent representative to nato if the organization is dying and what can the bloody history of berlin tell us about german politics today,

we investigate the story. all the small coming up in today's going underground refers to the international community, awaits tomorrow's news of whether more progressive government has been elected in europe's largest economy, germany, some characterizing the nuclear feud between france, the us, and britain as a crisis for nato. joining me now from berlin, his germany's former permanent representative to nature, ambassador york commits elect. thank you so much ambassador for coming on the well, maybe waiting for that election to morrow. i got to ask you, what have you made of say, macros? response to the nuclear submarine deal made apparently in secret between washington camber and london. entirely understandable this reaction i think, between allies and friends. such a procedure is not at all acceptable. and therefore, you have to see clearly reaction, let's say over you has of governance and of your commission. it's no and,

but let's say very our commercial aspects. it seems the australians have not been really satisfied in the last years by the approach of french and please don't forget the whole situation. at least the perception in the area has changed in the last years. and china is in the perception of your strengthens as of others, is the fret for the whole region. and therefore, i think it was normal to some extent. but i have been consulting that say friends from the past and this moment, but very short. have talked about vis, do have a french because the french could have offered to the same solution nuclear submarines. but on the other hand, let's say the term was clear up to the us to underline, let's say, to reassure, to some extent the allies and friends in the. ready in the in new pacific area.

yeah, we'll get to the pacific as it's been called you long said that members of europe have not got a unified policy on russia and china. i mean, you said that china is a threat to a strain. the china is a threat to germany. china is australia's biggest trading partner. china is the superpower economically of this century and will be a big trading butner of berlin. maybe we can get on to where you think it's a threat, rather than a trading. but why would joe biden all boris johnson or scott morrison not have told macro beforehand or anglo merkel? this is typically if you want to american, or typically if you want british to held secret, such as such a new outlook of american policy. and don't forget, british are looking for new road, a new place in the world of having left the opinion. and therefore, well,

it's perhaps understandable that have done the secretly, but in my eyes they should have at least informed the french who have please invested interest in the, in the pacific pacific area. i mean, if you're saying it's typical, the british government obviously would. hi that. do you think peter rab message rick, it's the former british ambassador, paris is right in saying that this can be damaging, only be damaging to nato. it should be. this may reinforce the feeling of nato allies in europe. there should be driving for european strategic autonomy away from washington. you certainly seems as a washington and london cannot be trusted in short term. yes, there is a damage to natal, but it's rebs. wake up call to talk about really about the future strategic concept of ne tool by the way, in parallel to the strategic come pass of

a european union. and i think. ready vis for me, it's a real wake up call. not only to be american, but it's a wake up call at the same time to repeat. let's say, to look more after security, to look more after, let's say, even van strategic autonomy in certain areas, at least. and to build up at the same time a security conception with regard to areas where the v, you repeat, even have invested trade investment interests. and one of these interest is the asian pacific area. and therefore, you have, let's say you need an overall approach. for example, if you ask asian countries about europe with pins are to some extent, a good trade part. yes. but with regard to the security,

the europeans are just not existing in asia. and as many of these countries consider, we have perception is a more aggressive chinese policy, which has become more aggressive in the last years and as easy paying. and therefore, you need to elaborate a real policy. it's almost like it's a good thing because you've been saying this for years as when you left being a german representative at nato. china, of course, would deny its being aggressive. china would say it is responding to hundreds of basis militarization by the united states around in circling at china. what will inform this strategic future for the european union? of course, we don't know who's going to be leading germany until the elections tomorrow, because does of the ever grant the crisis? this is the ever graham, the crisis which is affecting the banks across western nations. is that not show

just how into linked european economies are with what happens in the communist party in beijing? yes, yes, yes, please. oh, our economies are worldwide linked to some extent. but with regard to the economy should at any moment reflect. i think there's a serious how far you are dependent on you, how far you can be dependent on others. for example, you have a debate in germany about in europe about no upstream to. i'm not against all stream to because for me, the customer is the king at the end of a day. and you repeat ins have you're right. you appeal to have up to, you know, never had real coming policy nova, to china law towards the rest of asia. if you want nor to india or to other areas,

maybe no stream to his powering this interview. i don't know. but can you really imagine that the french or german can you imagine the french or german navies failing towards chinese maritime borders to threaten china like the british navy is today as part of this future of strategy and the pivot to wager that we've got some buy those more kindly looking more kindly on the century of china know it's, it's, i don't think it's policy often circling. all it's a policy of aggressive nature is just to show to a chinese is that in our eyes, in our perception, and in the perception of these nations of a region where our limits to observe. and i think the chinese understand this quite well. of course, in the future, you have 16000 u. s. military and civilian personnel at ramstein based in germany. i mean,

the drone strikes of the united states are conducted and planned. they say from ram steam. the old top secret may be joe biden, killed those 7 children in afghanistan as they were defeated enough, get this done. and the intelligence was being collected in germany. you're going to keep ramsay in bass. yes, it's part of a drum reassurance policy since 949, please don't forget roof. and therefore for the drums i've a for let's say, center left or center, right. still view relationship with you as is of crucial importance and remains. but this does not prevent germany from reflecting on areas veil to, let's say perhaps to coordinate. busy or to concentrate policies with us,

but there, there have, let's say very follow another line when v us, what difference does your vision of a new world, the perceived by european nature, members, what difference can they make? if not only the drone strikes being arranged in germany, but germany is a massive seller of weapons to the war on yemen. the world's largest humanitarian crisis in 201919 exports approved 257000000. i'm going to merkel has been spearheading arms exports that are used against the poorest countries on earth as you, as you know, very well, could this change under any new european european policy restructuring as regards some kind of policy that would be supported by the global, silent 1st,

1st, i don't know whether this strikes by drones. you know, god is thought have been directed from lunch to the 2nd. the drums have been, let's say, not, let's say the biggest sellers in boil. but, but the germans and other europeans, by the way, as the russians or as the chinese have to learn more is what they call strategic thinking. and in. ready these what i call deputy was somewhere or not the best for an inside. look at. look at the half moon of europe around it. 20 years ago. we've, we have our fault re surrounded by friends and allies. and the situation today is the policy with russia isn't a bad shape with ukraine is. busy working with told p, riff turkey. we are questioning that we're middle east. it is difficult situation.

we have not been able to over the, you know, of a russian snow of the americans, let's say, to calm down the iran we have not been able to control, to some extent saudi arabia, ambassador, what you're saying there is repeated at the podium at the united nations general assembly all week by one leader after another, and as you know very well, you said you weren't sure whether the drone program by the united states is not masterminded in germany. well, the 2010 budget request and future budget request in the u. s. a. the drone program, this is washington's without ram seen, would have a serious impact on ongoing missions, predator and reaper drones. it was the repo drone that killed those 7 children in the past few days, ordered by joe biden. use this site to conduct operations. it's referring to ramstein and you mentioned the iran, i mean the scientists obviously being assassinated by israel and the biggest sales of course, i think the 2nd biggest exposure of weapons to israelis,

germany agular merkel. visiting now she rescheduled she wants to visit israel is a big final trip in a couple of weeks you are, were you a well you are aware of the special relationship between is in germany and there is to a special relationship even between russia and israel. please don't good. who is reassuring is was in the existence of the one in the us. on the other hand, is russia peas? ambassador, i'll stop you there. more from germany's 4 representatives and a to up to this break, as well as a look at the history and future of european capital berlin. the novel, they didn't take into account one thing for their own capabilities. i didn't want

to face the truth if you will. you less than the truth is that the u. s. is no longer capable of playing the role of global hagaman. i mean the role which had had assigned to itself. we took a weapon, glove by you more than i the welcome back on the eve of germany's british elections. i'm still here with ambassador york embitter like germany. it's hold a representative to nato. let's joke about angular merc calls role in the mass killing of children in gaza. she express complete solidarity with an attorney who has hundreds of palestinians were killed in gaza in may scores of women and

children. now of course, germany has this special historical relationship. as regards the holocaust, do you think the elections might change german policy? people are saying these partners that may be elected in coalition, we have a whole different view of western asia to the well to the palestinians. the dark years of michael's 10 your as leader of germany. know i see your bid with situation in golf in a bit different way than you see it. but when you look at the drug elections on, on sunday tomorrow. ready please be aware i can't give today any forecast. probably the only forecast you may do is we will need 3 parties to form in a future government. this means a sudden instability, at least for certain time. but i think the drugs will be able to form a government yet. i don't see in various parties who will need

a future job government rift or real change with regard to nature or with regard to you. we're not an election program with the polls, but you seem to be suggesting that not only on the one hand and master and you said it for years, you want a realignment, a reevaluation of nato policy, and on the other, it's operation. glad vio all over again. you're doing nothing, there is no change. ramstein bass will still be there. the same pro nature policies pro washington policies on the middle east will be retained the drone strikes will continue. there will still be the idea that china, there is the enemy. there will still be, i don't know, support for the as off battalion in the ukraine, there's no change. and at the same time there needs to be change. how are you keeping these 2 ideas in your head at the same time? no, i think think i regret you a bit too much simplifying the whole. there are discussions among allies and

europeans about variety strategy towards russia to vote view crane. and there's not a view, a common view and view crane, but should, as the americans asked, years ago, to join know to know there's no agreement among the europeans. and i think who has been stopping this hone it was and get america by the way. and when you look at israel, well, drums have a certain responsibility, but on we are very well of our parties involved. who are, let's say, behaving in a way that is, let's say, not really, let's say acceptable to all, understandably, perhaps, but not acceptable. and this includes even russia in the middle east peace. and i think we have altogether a keen interest it say in a more peaceful area in this, in the middle east. and the same applies to asia police. we have news,

let's say developed trade and investment interest, for example, with china. yes or with india. yes. and you can't dissolve or separate your trade in investment interest from let's say for security policy, it's a point taken about bank of america's role in the ukraine, members of nato. and just finally, i mean, do you think the german elections will affect you? us relations in any, any real way that please please in my eyes we what we need with regard to view as is a reset of our relation with the united states. we need it. it's clear this has becoming clear under trump because, but with trump it was impossible to discuss, to negotiate in this way. and i think we have to look, let's say, in a more balanced relationship with us. this includes trade investment. busy this

includes extra terry 20 of american fiscal measures. this includes even security. on the other hand, the europeans have to bear in mind, but in future they have to be to do more on their own security even in the past, much more. m s. c. ok, middle ec, thank you. well berlin stood at the forefront of the cold war and now his german left body lincoln looked to possibly attain government as part of a progressive coalition. what can be learned about the future of germany? from the centuries of tension defined its capital in going underground. yep. the other 2 tropical exposure bonnie white spot on his new book, but in the story of a city is out now. funny, thanks so much coming. i'm going underground. you've written this book about berlin, the story of the city. i want to start with a kind of obvious question. why? what is your possible connection to the city? well, it's a question. i mean, it's because having that university,

a sort of web is joining the army. one of the 1st things i did in the army was to take the minute to train on the way you got into ballad from west. but in order to being an island at that time in the east germany, which some areas may just need reminding of some of the confronted by getting a call, see what was in the, in the german border. this extraordinary line of bob, machine guns and mine strips and magog dogs and then in berlin is still getting cost of all game cost checkpoint charlie in the east and just seeing a well that was complete the 80 and the saw. and to me at st. shocking in depressing balance. we had it. so we had that complete presentation for me ever since then, basing it so. so physical safety pass, i think physical safety with its normal lines of space. it is extraordinary buildings, its cultural sea,

but also its politics being on the front line of europe like and getting them interested in so much as it has been. an idea that actually history have been in is written in printing center is so untrue, actually look up, but in most cases i use it as it is. and why is it always been say, different to the rest of germany. why, you know, it has been said, well, yeah, you kind of mentioned that you read the book, you say you were identified tracy address to or bell. and one of those traits is this, essentially a if the tension between politics, religion, whatever. how did, how did that come about, how to become the city of tension that kind of carried through starting on graphically and then becoming the front of the, the main front in the cold war and, and arguably now becoming in front in the neutral. well, it was no matter why, but it should be a capital city. i mean, you get logged in logical ways where it is you to compare it away and they have to

actually what was, was originally to fishing villages on the river spray. and i've a space, i'm pretty insignificant. so the river and german, i thought it was because of where it was and you know, it became so crazy. so actually what you had, it was a population who gathered that for trade. not bad in any other reason. they were much community and so home that grew this. so the balance and i did is that it kept that individual different attitude, but different spirit. i'm assembly ways people describe people call it berlin and villa burton is voted 5 times in the lives. and the 1st 4 low volume interval and successful, then you'd successful in 1989 and they did it piece it. have it, have that individual spirit have a so geographical tension we like for being on the fun kids. and then it had the particular religious tension because the, the, the heavens,

hollins were but calvinist, strongly calvinist belinda is pretty religious. so altogether but basically a new one. but it's also have this extraordinary. so the cultural tension but in but it's always done the same thing culturally does. now, i mean berlin with david bowie, obviously we have the german elections are on the, even the terminal actions during the last part, the potential about form, a kind of progressive coalition. obviously, man will know berlin as the city of marks, just told me about that period. how battling could create the figures out to it, but he's living in the eighty's and seeing the paulding social conditions because one of the only things by, by monday, i mean, but in the many things sitting which are these are the reformation had it's it's it . but it's certainly city where communism had is sunday, she is because the conditions in the cases further expand adults for the fall. she

is going city in year and to say stand vaults a couple of the american cities like chicago. actually, the pulse is growing in the world, but as an industry expanded, the social conditions involved you have people living in the most appalling conditions right up. why down until the $192930.00 mark saw that and he formed his theories on what he was seeing that it was extraordinary per the $900.00 century balance. and you have this tension between the cause of being the hands all ends and the sort of passion, military. and the same time you have in balance and increasing democratization increase in the left wing government that she sits in increasing movement, increasing left wing. all. so you have a whole series of artists and authors who actually very critical of the way that i think so the while the surprises people. and the other thing that will be is a big issue at the german elections. tomorrow will be immigration. and germany has

taken to be far more migrant than most other places in europe. just tell me about berlin's history kind of multicultural taking in migrants from other areas at the time. i mean, and i think i'd say in the book that his mom, jeremy wants a pass, has to do nothing more than look to the, the example set bytes. capital city is berlin has taken immigrants over the agency and it's always been an immigrant city. so there's a great thing about that. a typical belinda is not somebody who did that since 12 century typical, but it was somebody who lived at the well with section 12, imbedded you all about it. and this, this tradition, if you like, miss comfortable, company, comfortable in having immigrants there and it has given this enormous cultural diversity and strength and the bridge and in the middle ages tend to be from, you know, the obviously you had the know most jewish migration you have the printer, you have a lot of people from you have the po, studies in, but then that,

that get spread wider and wider. and so that would be nice imbalance who came in because the germans bought them in to help work when they had real depopulation. you've gotten a lot of african immigrants. you've got, you've got people come inside. you say you got me saw social cultural problems. the final trade in value would be an issue in the last month and i is a sense of victim that you described and move would associate with the sy in the stop in the back. but you go way back to the 30 years war, but that is all which again, is probably pretty make too many people watching this program. 1618. 16. 48. by far, most damaging, more europe and suffered much more in abortion. and when a is devastated band and bug is devastated and then is itself completely devastated

and the, it takes it, but it never really recovered from, from what happened today. and i did this germany as a lever. you have people like frederick the great liking, 100 years a 150 days saying you have to understand the story. the history said, yes, we have people like sure that great germany actually who is a boy and he likes, but he has who you have and things like mother college. that is a story with her is more that's a big picture perpetuate and it's very strong. and that she fun enough, it's again in the sort of east west coming together. there are people in the balsam going by then. but the like, by the way, some people i would say probably 1520 percent who are very and you talked about the link that you talk about the strength of the left at she's unique or is different. and so the communist party was,

but there are still links to continuity because some of the people who actually lived in the so all of our lives in offline and united way did they didn't find the satisfactory experience jobs were thought to be give a more ready to be from the west, take the government job, and there is a sense, like you have sort of wasted. like maybe been born in berlin that say around 900100 . your whole life had been one of the can probably say and the father as the physical development, but in his health. huge in by the better. but it has been incredibly clever about how it's how it's we built it. so we developed but it's very good at remembering to its buildings. you look at the holocaust memorial. how many other cities in, you know, with actually put a really major memorial like holocaust in the middle of the city. i mean tells you something that is healthy thing to do, i think. well bonnie,

why it's funny. we'll have to see how many of the issues in your book in the service that he end up being present in the elections. i think. thanks so much. great job. bonnie white, spanish speaking they're going undergoing deputy other to charlie cook and that's it for the show will be back on monday to talk me future of life on earth and the possibility of nuclear annihilation with the nobel peace prize winner. until then, he talks about social media and let us know what you think the outcome of the german elections will be. the i i i, i the, the news

the, the news, the the deadlines this hour here on t dutch court rules, it is acceptable for border police to stop and check people entering the country on the basis of skin color. here on our t, we put the issue up for debate to codification of racism. i don't know the figures in this book i suppose. they are similar like in belgium, 6 of them, primitive or illegal immigrants, religion offenses. hundreds of health workers in france facing prosecution over run, putting fraud in the countries coven health power system. tens of thousands of.