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who's action or see we're going underground on the eve of german bullish doug elections amidst the new cold war coming up in the show as russia nord stream to pipeline take center stage in german elections. and it made a nuclear rel between front of the usa in britain, we ask germany's former permanent representative to nato if the organization is dying and what can the bloody history of berlin tell us about german politics today, we investigate the story of all the small coming up in today's going underground, but 1st of the international community awaits tomorrow's news of whether more progressive government has been elected in europe. the largest economy, germany, some characterizing the nuclear feud between france, the u. s. in britain as a crisis for nato. joining me now from berlin in germany's former permanent representative to nature ambassador your convince elect. thank you so much

ambassador for coming on the well, maybe waiting for that election. tomorrow i got to ask you what have you made of, say, macros. response to the nuclear submarine deal made apparently in secret between washington the, the camber and london entirely understandable this reaction. i think, between allies and friends. such a procedure is not at all acceptable. and therefore, you have to see clearly the reaction that say over you as of governance and of your commission, it's normal. and, but let's say very our commercial aspects. it seems the australians have not been really satisfied in last year's by the approach of french and please don't forget the whole situation. at least the perception in the area has changed in the last years. and china is in the perception of your trillions as of others,

is the fret for the whole region. and therefore, i think it was normal to some extent that i have been consulting. it's a friends from the past and this moment, but very short. have talked about vis, do have a french because the french could have offered to the same solution nuclear submarines . but on the other hand, let's say the term was clear up to view as to underline, let's say, to reassure, to some extent, the allies and friends in the, in the, in the pacific area. yeah, we'll get to the indo pacific as it's been called you long said that members of europe have not got a unified policy on russia and china. i mean, you said that china is a threat to a strain. the agenda is a threat to germany. china is australia's biggest trading wagner. china is the

superpower economically of this century and will be a big trading butner of berlin. maybe we can get on to why you think it's a threat, rather than a draining. but why would joe biden orest johnson or scott morrison not have told macro beforehand or anglo merkel? this is typically if you want to american or to because if you're one british to help secrets such as such a new outlook of american policy and don't forget, the british are looking for new road, a new place in the world of having left the european union and therefore, well, it's perhaps understandable in the draft on the secretly, but by eyes there should have at least informed the french who have please invested interest in the, in the pacific pacific area. i mean, it's a, you're saying it's typical, the british government obviously would. hi that. do you think peter rab method or

rick, it's the former british ambassador, paris is right in saying that this can be damaging, only be damaging to nato. it should be. this may reinforce the feeling of nato allies in europe. there should be driving for european strategic autonomy away from washington. you certainly seem to say washington and london cannot be trusted in short term. yes, there is a damage to natal, but it's reps wake up call to talk about really about the future strategic concept of ne tool by the way in parallel to the strategic come pass of a european union. and i think. ready vis for me, it's a real wake up call. not only to be american, but it's a wake up call at the same time to repeat. let's say to look more off the security to look more after let's say, even van strategic,

it's hard to me in certain areas it east and to build up at the same time as security conception with regard to areas where the v, you repeat, even have invested trade investment interests and one of these interest is the asian pacific area. and therefore, you have, let's say you need an overall approach. or example, if you ask asian countries about europe, we repeat are, to some extent, a good trade part. yes. but with regard to security, the europeans are just not existing in asia. and as many of these dreams consider the perception is a more aggressive chinese policy, which has become more aggressive in the last years. and as you shipping. and therefore, you need to elaborate a real policy. it's almost like it's a good thing,

because you've been saying this for years as when you left being a german representative at nato. china, of course, would deny its being aggressive. china would say it is responding to hundreds of basis militarization by the united states around in circling at china. what will inform this strategic future for the european union? of course, we don't know who's going to be leaving germany until the elections tomorrow because of the ever grand crisis. this is the ever grand crisis which is affecting the banks across western nations. does that not show just how into linked european economies are with what happens in the communist party in beijing? yes, yes, yes, please. oh, our economies are worldwide linked to some extent. but with regard to the economies

should at any moment reflect. i think there's a serious how far you are dependent or you how far you can be dependent on others. for example, you have a debate in germany about in europe about north stream to i'm not against the stream too, because for me, the customer is the king at the end of the day. and repeat this, have your right view, appeal have up to, you know, never had a real coming policy nova, towards china law towards the rest of asia. if you want, nor to india or to other areas, maybe north stream to is powering this interview. i don't know, but can you really imagine that the french or german, the, can you imagine the french or german navies failing towards chinese maritime borders to threaten china like the british navy is today as part of this future of strategy and the pivot do age or that mean gold,

some by those more kindly looking more kindly on the century of china. no, it's, it's, i don't think it's policy often circling all it's a policy of aggressive nature is just to show to a chinese that in our eyes, in our perception. and in the perception of reason, nations of the region, there are limits to observe. and i think the chinese understand this quite well. of course, in this future, you have 16000 u. s. military and civilian personnel at ramstein base. in germany. i mean, the drone strikes of the united states are conducted and planned. they say from ramstein, it's all top secret. maybe joe biden killed those 7 children in afghanistan as they were defeated in galveston. and the intelligence was being collected in germany.

you're going to keep ramsey in bass. yes, it's a part of a drum reassurance policy since 949, please. don't forget this. and therefore for the drums, ivr for let's say, center left or center, right. still view relationship review as is of crucial importance and remains. but this does not prevent germany from reflecting on areas veil to, let's say perhaps to coordinate. busy or to concentrate policies with us, but there were have, let's say they would follow another line when v us, what difference does your vision of a new world, the perceived by european nato members? what, what difference can they make? if not only the drone strikes being arranged in germany,

but germany is a massive seller of weapons to the war on yemen. the world's largest humanitarian crisis in 201-9198 arms exports approved. 257000000. i'm going to merkel has been spearheading arms exports that are used against the poorest countries on earth as you, as you know, very well, could this change under any new european european policy restructuring as regards some kind of policy that would be supported by the global, silent 1st, 1st, i don't know whether the strikes by drones, you know, god is thought has been directed from lunch to the 2nd. the drums have been, let's say, not, let's say the biggest sell of invoice. but, but the germans and other europeans, by the way,

as the russians or as the chinese have to learn more is what they call strategic thinking. and. ready these what i call deputy was somewhere are not the best for an inside. look at the look at the half moon of europe around it 20 years ago. we've fought real surrounded by friends and allies, and visit ration today is the policy with russia isn't a bad shape. with ukraine is working with told p, riff turkey. we are questioning that our middle east is difficult situation. we have not been able over the, you know, of a russian snow of the americans, let's say, to calm down the iran, we have not been able to control, to some extent the saudi arabia. ambassador, what you're saying there is repeated at the podium at the united nations general assembly all week by one leader after another. and as you know very well, you said you weren't sure whether the drone program by the united states is not

masterminded in germany. well, the 2010 budget request and future budget requests in the u. s. a. the drone program. this is washington's without ram seen, would have a serious impact on ongoing missions, predator and reaper drones with the reaper drone that killed those 7 children in the past few days, ordered by joe biden. use this site to conduct operations. it's referring to ramstein, and you mentioned iran, i mean, the scientists obviously being assassinated by israel and the biggest sales of course, i think the 2nd biggest exposure of weapons to israelis, germany agular merkel, visiting now she rescheduled she wants to visit israel is a big final trip in a couple of weeks you were you were, you are aware of the special relationship between is within germany. and there is to a special relationship even between russia and israel. please don't forget who is

reassuring is was in the existence of the one in the us. on the other hand, is russia peas? ambassador, i'll stop you there. more from germany's for representatives and a to up to this break as well as a look at the history and future of european capital berlin. ah, ah, the ah, the the welcome back on the eve of germany's burnished elections. i'm still here with ambassador york bitterly. germany is for the representative to nato. let's joke about angular michael's role in the mass killing of children in gaza. she express complete solidarity with an attorney who has hundreds of palestinians were killed

in gaza in may scores of women and children. now of course, germany has this special historical relationship. as regards the holocaust, do you think the elections might change german policy? people are saying these policies that may be elected in coalition, we have a whole different view of western asia to the well to the palestinians. the dark years of michael's 10 your as leader of germany. know, see your bid, the situation in garza in a bit different way than you see it. but on the oven, when you look at the drug elections on, on sunday tomorrow. ready please be aware i can't give today any forecasts. probably the only forecast you may do is we will need 3 parties to form a future government. this means a sudden instability, at least for certain time. but i think the drugs would be able to form

a government yet. i don't see in various parties who will need a future job government a rift or real change with regard to nature or with regard to you. we're not an election program with the polls, but you seem to be suggesting that not only on the one hand ambassador and you said it for years you want a realignment, a reevaluation of nature of policy, and on the other, it's operation. glad the oh, all over again. you're doing nothing. there is no change. ramsdale base will still be there. the same pro nato policies pro washington policies on the middle east will be in return in the drone strikes will continue. they will still be at the idea that china, there is the enemy, there will still be, i don't know supports for the as off battalion in the ukraine, there's no change. and at the same time, there needs to be change. how are you keeping these 2 ideas in your head at the same time? no, i think think i regret you

a bit too much simplifying the whole. there are discussions among allies and europeans about variety strategy towards russia to vote view crane. and there's a lot if you come and view and view crane, but should, as the americans asked, years ago, should joy know to know there's no agreement among the europeans. and i think who has been stopping this hone it was and get america by the way. and when you look at it, well, well, drums have a certain responsibility, but, and we are very well of parties involved with, let's say, behaving in a way that is, let's say, not really, let's say acceptable to all, understandably, perhaps, but not acceptable. and this includes even russia and middle east bees. and i think we have altogether a keen interest it say in a more peaceful area in this,

in the middle east. and the same applies to asia police. we have these, let's say, developed trade and investment interest, for example, with china. yes or with india. yes. and you can't dissolve or separate your trade in investment interest from let's say for security policy, it's a point taken about bank of america's role in the ukraine membership of nato. and just finally, i mean, do you think the german elections will affect you? us relations in any, any real over, please, please in my eyes we what we need with regard to view as is a reset of our relation with united states. we need it. it's clear. this has become in clear under trump because, but with trump it was impossible to discuss, to negotiate in this way. and i think we have to look, let's say, in

a more balanced relationship with us. this includes trade investment, which includes extra tell you 20 of american fiscal measures. this includes even security. and on the other hand, the europeans have to bear in mind, but in future, they have to be to do more on their own security, even in the past much more. m s. c. ok, middle ec, thank you. well, berlin stood at the forefront of the cold war and now his german left party delinkum looked to possibly attain government as part of a progressive coalition. what can be learned about the future of germany, from the centuries of tension that are defined in capital berlin going underground jeopardy that charlie cook spoke to bonnie white spot on his new book, but in the story of a city is out now. body, thanks so much coming. i'm going underground. you've written this book about bell in the story of the city. i wanna start with a kind of obvious question. why. what is your personal connection to the city?

well, it's a question. i mean, it's because having that university sort of web is joining the army. one of the 1st things i did in the army was to take the minute to train on the way you got in from west. but in all the sending an island at that time in the east germany, which some areas may just need reminding of somebody. confronted by getting a call, see what was in the, in the german border. a coffee is extraordinary. so the line of bob was machine guns and mine scripts and magog dogs and then in berlin is still getting caught the ball game cost checkpoint charlie in the east and just seeing a well that was complete the 80 and the so and to me at stay d shocking and depressing, but in so we had, it's always had that complete presentation for me ever since then, basing it so. so physical safety pass, i think physical therapy with its normal lines of space. it is extraordinary

buildings, its cultural, see, but also its politics being on the frontline of europe is like again sort of interesting and so much as it always has been. an idea that actually history have been in is written in 20th century is so untrue, actually look up, but then why, why, why use it as it is? and why is it always been so different to the rest of germany? what has been said? well, yeah, you kind of mentioned that you read a book, you say you were identified, trade the address to or bell. and one of those traits is this, essentially a if the tension between politics, religion, whatever. how did, how did that come about? how to berlin become the city of tension that kind of carried through starting on graphically and then becoming the front of the, the main front in the cold war and, and arguably now becoming in front and the neutral. well, it was, it was very white, but it should make capital city. i mean,

you get logged in logical ways where it is you to compare it away. and then what was, was originally to fishing villages on the river spray and i've a space i'm pretty insignificant. so the river and german to bought. it was because of where it was in europe. it became so crazy. so actually what you had to buy them was a population who gathered that for trade. not bad have her any other reason. they were much community. and so from that grew this. so the balance and i did that. they kept that individual different attitude, but different spirit. i'm the same ways people describe people call it berlin and villa in person is voted 5 times in their lives. and the 1st 4 volunteers on successful successful in 1989. and they did the piece it, have it, have that individual spirit have a so geographical tension we like for being on the functions of europe. then it had

a particular religious tension because the, the, the heavens allan, but calvinist strongly columnist belinda is pretty religious. so altogether basic and new to him, but it's also have, this is stormy. so the cultural tension, but in, but it's always done the same thing culturally does. now, i mean berlin weekly, but daily, by way, obviously we have the german elections on the even the terminal actions during the last party potentially about form. a kind of progressive coalition. obviously, man will know berlin as the city of mark. just tell me about that period. how battling can create the figures out to it, but he's been living in and seeing me pulling social conditions because one of the only things by, by monday, i mean, but in many things it's a city which is where the reformation had it's it's it, but it's certainly communism had in sunday. she's because the conditions in the

factories is further expanded. industrially, the policy is going city in year and to say stand vall, couple of the american cities like chicago, actually the pulse is growing in the world. but as, as, as industry expanded, the social conditions give up and you have people living in the most appalling additions right up. why down until the 192930 mark saw that and he formed his theories on what he was seeing. that it was extraordinary for the 900 century berlin and you have a sub tension between the college of been the hands, all ends, and the so the passion, military and the same time have invalid and increasing. democratization. increased the left wing government, that ship safety and increase the left wing movement, increasing left wing all. so you have a whole series of artists and authors who actually very critical of the way i think . so while the surprises people, and the other thing that will be, is

a big issue at the german elections tomorrow will be immigration, and germany has taken to be far more migrant than most other places in europe. just tell me about berlin's history, kind of multicultural taking in groups from other areas at the time. i mean, and i think i would say in the book that his mom gemini, wants a pass and he has to do nothing more than look to the, the example set bytes. capital city is berlin has taken immigrants a with the agency and it's always been an immigrant city. so there's a great thing about that. a typical belinda is not somebody who did that sort of century typical, but it was somebody who devised at the railway station one to embed it you are and this, this tradition, if you like this constable. company comfortable that and having immigrants there and it has given it this enormous cultural diversity and strength. and the bridge in the middle ages tend to be from, you know, the opposite. had the no mas,

jewish migration. you have the printer, you have a lot of people from, you have a lot of studies in, but then that, that get spread. why don't, why this is all to be at the knees and berlin, who came in because the germans bought them in to help work when they had wheel depopulation. you've gotten a lot of african immigrants. you've got, you've got people from. and so you say you saw the social cultural problems, the final trade in value would be an issue in the election. and is that sense of the victim that you described and would associate with the sy in the dive in the back. but you go way back to the 30th ward, which again, is probably pretty make too many people watching this program. 161816. 48 by follow them and do more europe and suffered much more. so in abortion and germany is

devastated band and bug is devastating. itself completely devastated and the take it but it never really recovered from, from what happened to it. and i did this germany as a lever. you have people like frederick, the great liking, 100 years, a 150 s data, saying you have to understand the see the history said yes, we have people like sure that great. and germany actually, who is a boy and he likes, he has war. you have things like mother courage, that is a story with her is more, that's in the big picture, it's perpetuating. and it's very strong and actually fun enough. it's again in the sort of east west coming together. there are people in the balsam go to the the by then, but the like, by the way, some people i would probably 1520 percent who are very and, and you talk about the link that you talk about the strength of the left actually do you think there is huge difference. so the communist

party was but there are still linked to continuity because some of the people who actually lived in the saw over live in off 989 they did. they didn't find it, but it says factory experience. jobs were thought to be more ready to be from the west. take the government job. and there is a sense, like you have sort of wasted lives and maybe been born in, in that saying around 900100. your whole life been one, the control the say, and the problems as the physical development, but in his health, huge in by the better, but in spending credibly clever about how it, how it's we built it. so we developed but it's very good at remembering actually buildings. you look at the holocaust memorial, how many other cities in, you know, with actually put a really major memorial like in the middle of the city. i mean, that tells you something that is healthy thing to do big. well, anyway,

it's fun. we'll have to see how many of the issues in your book, and the sort of end up being present in the elections. i think. thanks so much, allie. a great job. bonnie white, spanish speaking they're going i'm going to the other to charlie cook and that's it for the show will be back on monday to talk me future of life on earth and the possibility of nuclear annihilation with a nobel peace prize winner until then he talks about social media and let us know what you think the outcome of the german elections will be the ah, ah, ah, the ah,

[000:00:00;00] the ah, deadlines on our team to national this, our russia just close a global corporation in the avoidance of harmful initiatives that might split the world, the you in general assembly or the countries foreign minister, 2nd love for off touched on a wide range of topic. well, the news does court rules that police can continue to select people for extra identity checks of the board based on their estimates to, to resolve the issue for