and says the gas deal was made purely for economic benefits, and there is no reason for what it calls an extreme reaction from ukraine. and anyway, spoke to dr. pierre and manuel to man and joe political expert. and he says, the current pensions are actually being driven from across that line take from the old guy and point of view they won secure, or supply of god on for most of european countries varies. no, i cannot achieve to rush on god because each geography cordy quite or near near neighborhood and also is cheap through or. busy gas pipelines, but we know, but behind this dispute ukraine is playing the american game because you couldn't consider as a pilot geopolitical pilot from united states to try to weaken russia and the united states to push ukraine against russia,

policies and also to promote its own no or own shale gas, and we would like to connect ukraine to we are reorientation the infrastructure, which would, would be nuts, more east, west about north south and to supply reef. american shade guy. so i think there is a much bigger game behind this communication war. and those are the main new stories on our team to national one is in half an hour, it's time up next. if the cross dog the when i was shot the wrong when i was just don't the room. yes. to shave out the thing because the after an engagement equals the trail,

when so many find themselves well, the part we choose to look for common ground in the the, the, the, the ah ah, ah, ah hello and welcome to cross todd where all things considered i'm peter live l as angle a merkel makes or exit from german politics. voters have made it clear they were looking for new ideas and directions. wrinkles party suffered like total defeat with smaller parties in the mix to form a new governing coalition. will this be called to merkel inheritance?

the cross talking the german elections. i'm joined by my guess mag quarter up in london . he's a professor of political science and international relations and coventry university, as well as the author of the book angler merkel. europe's most influential leader in frankfort. we have are like, broken up. he is a political analyst and professor of political science at stanford university in berlin. and in princeton we cross the harold james. he's a professor of history and international affairs at princeton university. his latest book is the war of ideas, a glossary of globalization, right? tillman cross talk rules and effect. that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate it. go to you 1st in frankfurt, you're in germany here, before we talk about the, the election and what comes next. what is the legacy of anglo merkel? i mean, she is a towering figure in european politics has been for

a very long time. she weathered quite a few crisis. these people have praised her, of others have criticized her. but no matter what she made a huge mark in german politics in europe. european politics in general. what is her legacy? on the one hand, there are great achievements. she is a monster and managing crisis, being why it's managing one step at a time and financial crisis. the greek crisis, the migration crisis breaks condemning. so everyone trusted as the successful crisis manager at the same time if you're trying to science, which is what she always described, the way she's, she's not as pretty chick thinker, which means that in 16 years we never got a sense of what she wants, that you are in union come, she didn't support mark call sufficiently with idea what direction he wants to

guide the european union. so domestically, she is appreciated and people respect are across the party back from literally speaking on the european love of that. well, let's here, let me go to you in princeton. i mean for what we just heard there. she's a good manager, but not much of a politician. and in looking at the election, it seemed a lot about policy and not so much about politics, which is really quite strange. because if you look at france, it's very, very political hungry poll. and there is a lot of politics going on. but in the german election, a very much policy driven, is that a reflection of anglo merkel and her inheritance for germany? go ahead and princeton. yes, peter, it's great to be with you and i think you're right on that. so this was not a political election. there wasn't a big clash of ideas in germany. so it's very unlike france with the macro depend,

race or artist johnson against jeremy corbin are in the united states. they trump biden story and a, one of the things i think it's important to realize is 1st the major people who presented themselves as possible candidates for being chance their own presented themselves as the continuation of mac or as so the c d u candidate was obviously the anointed air in the party and show in the s p d. it was also really very much emphasizing the continuity and he looks like a figure who emphasizes the continuity with mrs. macro also with how much mit getting back into the seventy's and eighty's and somebody who's tremendous be respected exactly the same way as missing back i was as a centrist figure, a crisis manager. and, and i think the complaint about not having

a strategy is not quite right. i mean, mrs. macro had a view of what globalization means. it means germany on its own con, or the operate effectively. it needs a bigger unit or it needs a european ational. and she was pushing that and i think it's, it's unfair to say that mrs. mackerel didn't really understand europe, the necessity as moving forward in europe. europe is a very diverse country. so i think you can actually expect a lot of continuity and say there's a recognition that there's a need to change. the specific policies to deal with that change are not really clear. and everybody, for instance, thinks that this policy needed to deal with climate change to your, to emissions every exactly the mechanism by which that's going to be achieved. because it's going to be unpopular. i think putting up gasoline prices will bring up each in crisis. and you saw the reaction against that in france with the julie

shawn. so there's a lot of debates in the coming weeks and months since the government is formed about exactly how that strategy is going to be implemented. you know, a mad one of the interesting things we look at the 2 major voting blocks in 2017. it was different now that we see that miracles blocking took a slight electoral defeat here. but i don't see that, you know, again we've, we've mentioned the u. s. in france and all that, it's so contentious, i mean, you would think with this kind of election outcome, it would be, you know, they'd be slugging it out. but actually, the, the, the center is very much coveted and german politics. and i want to talk about the smaller parties because there's growing fragmentation. but it's really interesting is that even if you disagree with anglo merkel, there is this sense. it's built in that we need continuity. why is that? is it because of the last series of crises that we're, we heard mentioned before, go ahead in london because germany, berkeley,

and conservative reform in order to maintain it. she's all those journals are the carbon copy of the definition of a true. so the way to teach and my political theory, you know, you only make changes in order the same. and what is interesting about german politics is that in a way, it's become more in the audiological sense, conservative or just maintaining that the status quo and the way things were. and what is also interesting is the other predictor policy spread. so we start with the critical t drinking. why, why does this have moved to the center? there was a lecture that what, how big it to be going to be just on the 17th day of the christ and democratic party where they said it was safe. and last it was a fine unique football team or politics always win. and it was almost as if there

was been corruption on the ground. so everybody was trying to be the chris, which is a party that very interesting be the 1st 35 years. why have a program sometimes don't as a counselor. so an organizer they should like to talk. so german politics, well, very good story. re much more about why, but we all know there's some given politics. one where can reach is the, as a problem is they've been the or. ready and, and nobody, once i get mad you, you took the words right out of my mouth because christmas not a word that you applied to german politics, particularly in the last election. but there's nothing wrong with that. ok. let's go back to our guest in frankfort. you know, we talked about merkle and her, the, and the, and, and her major opponents, s p

d. but the next government is going to be made up of the tie breaker. the king makers are going to be the smaller parties, the green parties, liberals like that. i mean, is this where the continuity and change meet. go ahead and frankfurt. well, 1st of all, to clarify what i meant in my 1st and then the taxes and euro. i said that she never presented decision where she wants europe to guide. and if we compare it's not science was most likely the next chancellor sex when we formed the next generation, you post them in recovery package, he called madison moment said the european union will finally be something like a union, as a stabilizing macroeconomic specter to make some money to union more robust economy crisis. so that might be something that we will see happening and especially the

next receiving countries waiting for such a think. know that germany is not taking more responsibility, being more away from what used to be the old song of therapies. we have to keep our budget in order when it comes to. he's also not so much about austerity is p e. a rather wants to push germany to invest in on an annual basis to find the needs are coming years. and his priority as the head of the green party, of course is how threat climate. so in case we will be, i think we're listen happening. we have a coalition of being part of the social democrats pushing the direction, which would also be beneficial for you and the effect of the liberal party that was

always addressing your off. we would build a money pipeline to the south and we would all only waste taxpayer money. so there will be a policy in the german government before we even reach the european level. harold, where was europe in this election? it was, and i want to talk about foreign policy in the 2nd half of the program. it was, it was remind me, i'm talking to harold here in print. i mean, i've, i'm really remarkable because germany is the engine for better or worse if you like . it or not, of the european project there, and it wasn't on the ballot as it were. go ahead. harold was, i think, in a way, yeah, sure. but you're right on that. it really was on the, in this all the main parties in the political center where explicitly pro european and that includes the f t p by the way the n t europe party at the f t

a did very badly. and really only one votes in east germany at the same is true about the party. it was the former communist party to p d. s. it also did badly got under 5 percent of the vote as still represented in the parliament though because of the peculiarities of the german election. but also really just in the eastern germany. and so in effect there's a anti european feeling in parts of eastern germany. but absolutely known in the old federal republic and there's an enormous consensus if there's an enormous consensus. you don't really need to have a disagreement about virtue in public order. it doesn't appear very prominent harold, i have to jump in here. i have to go to a hard break, and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the german election. stay with our team, the the

me and i make no, certainly no borders under my number t's as emerge. we don't have authority, we go to the back seen the whole world, leads to take action and be ready for people who judge, you know, come crisis, we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in our own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is paid for the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are together

in the moon the welcome back, the cross talk where all things are considered. i'm peter le belts. reminder we're discussing the german elections. i ok when i want to go to matt. but before i ask a question, i want to address harold. i didn't, i didn't want to give the impression that there was an anti european sentiment on the bout when i was saying a vision for europe moving forward. a fiscal policy, things like that. i obviously the center is very pro european union and so i want to make back their math as harold was just say something that

a famous famous slogan that how much mit had a long time ago. but his widely widely repeated about visions in politics in the ship said, if you have a vision, you should go in consulting eye, doctor, and consulting optician. that's probably why it's ok. matt, joy, when harold was answering his last question before i went to the break you what you raise your hand one to jump in, please do right now. go ahead man. yeah. so 1st of all that quote, i think he actually did not say titian interest was more, more so, but i think one of the things that he's the legacy of magical in a negative sense comes back to the wrong profile. important. you made the wrong peter about the difference between policy and politics of policy is about what works. that politics, according to the famous german definition, is fear, way between grand and enemy and in politics,

where he has too many friends and enemies shouldn't be what you need. an element of that sort of hash june of emotion. and i think the medical has had, is that she's been very good and policy making very good, a government by spreadsheet. but sometimes you need a little bit more, especially when you feel that you're to mike and i agree with us. so by the way, you know, the division of politics between friend and enemy, and that was a definition that was produced by ca schmidt, who really were very, very close to the nazi party. and it's exactly the vision is something that you have and well divided into friends and enemies with a 0 sum game. and they all tentative view is a view in which you do cooperation and you to tradeoffs and you, you make compromises. and that's a, that's a realistic and productive view of the world it's, it's not, it's not a bad view or it's, it's actually a very constructive view. it can be very constructive. you the problem that i was

going tonight was that uncle and me, i can see still focusing on the, the emotional side of politics. and when people in eastern europe, in particular, that there was globalized nation, there was immigration, and then they have been basically won't see more politics and less on a c. and i think the paradox that i'm glad that you can. so focus on on a see that she has failed to recognize. we were the fears of those when america might be called the left and especially people, eastern europe for eastern german, for wasting germany who vote for the a f d or. ready d link s b s. ok, let's go back to our guest and praying for a talk about the, the greens and the, the other small parties here because it's very interesting that the greens didn't do as well as so many had hoped a few months ago. but if you look at the who voted forum,

it was remarkably large number of young people. and in that sense, the climate was on the ballot and, and we, what i'm getting here is there's a generational change going on. now, how do you put that into the mix here because we still have this kind of very traditional set of parties that were, that were often failure with here. but, you know, the green party, in my mind is kind of a wildcard, because even though it didn't do as well as people expected, its voting bass is pretty fervent and, and quite large when you, when you look at the demographics, what do you think about that go ahead. remarkable because it all started as an anti party and now they are conservative and they want to conserve the environment. what we also see is supported by young people, but young people don't matter a country that have a serious problem when elections in the center and you've been lexan with old

people and macro manage to deal with the old border from the social democrats. i'm being the concept of the party, the problematic core from conservative to the center that allows her to really 4 times. now that the new leaders tried to move the conservative party back to where it came from. every one went back to the social democrats, and the social democrats won the elections with voters, which means that old people are afraid of change and they are now push 5 and liberal. one young voters party support or young and it will be a very interesting coalition if it's a conservative change from the green party, has a different understanding of conservatism. they'll also progressive together with the liberal party faces to slow down. not so fast, not understanding of what leadership is you know,

herald. one of the things i liked about the german election is how people coined these words for potential coalition. so i'm gonna read off a few of the traffic white coalition. the grand coalition, the can you coalition, the jamaica coalition, there actually a few other ones with colors here. what's this going to look like over the next few weeks, maybe months here? what is going to be the, the bones of contention? what's going to be the deal breaker for a coalition to come into existence, go ahead. harold and princeton will indeed say the parties all have colors that are associated with them. and so it's easy to refer to the possible coalitions by the name of national facts that happened to be in the color. so, as a germany coalition, for instance, says black red gold or black red yellow is black for the christian democrats. read for the social democrats,

yellow for the liberals, and fundamentally point i think it is rather peculiar one that is that everybody is fed up with the great coalition, with s p d c, d u coalition. although actually looking at it numerically, that would make the greater sense in that those are the 2 largest parties and they probably could just have a very, very narrow majority in the parliament. there's a feeling that that's tired. and even though the parties are very, very close in political doctrines, they didn't want to do that. and i think that makes the point again, that this is largely about personalities rather than a bad concrete policies liberal. so say, i think is being shipped by both national reach the liberals, our more to the rights on economic policy on financial policy and more resistant to

the idea of a debt. europe is ation hamiltonian moment. and the s p d and the greens would like to put up texas. so there's going to be really a substantial debate about that. and i think, you know, both actually reflect elements are profoundly represented in the german psyche. another favorite german phrase that gets recycling again and again is from good his house to so dwell in my breast at try zealand vall and i can my the pros and j one. so says you should do things. you should be collective and you should have a collective vision and the other. so says you need to be careful and cautious, and it's a good idea to save in order to prepare yourself for future catastrophes. one of the reasons that the german government had a big room from the new ver, going into the covey crisis into the pandemic with really unprecedented economic.

suddenly shocked was exactly that they accumulated to strong fiscal position. they have a much greater room for new. and so they f t p 's words on caution, i think are also heated by shots and shells. there's not a wire spend it passed and he's cautious and he's right to be cautious. he does seem to me to be exactly the to him which met and he is sometimes make something of that, you know, and, but madness doesn't. the grand coalition make more make sense to continue here because of the moderation and holding onto the center here because we look at these other party, the smaller party they all last in, in vote compared to the last general election for the parliament here. so i mean, what do you say with what works me? i know people didn't like the grand coalition, but it was because the and particularly going through all of the crises that we have seen over the last few years. do you think it inevitably that's going to be it?

i mean, it's fun to tinker on the sides, but is it? is it time to have fun? is it time to be tinkering? go ahead, matt. i think the, the, the vanity of the, of the green policy and the liberal policy both received them into government. i think it is conceivable that christian, the liberal leader will become finance minister that either lead to be up or with the foreign minister. i'm calling with the the vice chancellor and then shows would be the chancellor and that would give him the supports and they will be then pretty happy with those. that's the thing in germany, which is that in 65 of the constitution says the charles lays out the guidelines all this. so charles, slightly more than a prime minister and so on. so the other ones would get that one or 2 points and they would be able to, if somebody would be know why that was either go up or down, they will be happy with that. i mean, before does she go last time,

the liberals were kicking up a bit faster than they ended up not going. it's collision in the social democrats where we dragged, kicking and screaming into coalition government and, and for more time in a lot of that. so i think the conservative c d u i'm the c su, very important would not want to go into college because they would have to be a junior. that's right, they'd be flipped. yeah. right. let me go to you in frankfort here to finish off here. what's your price? what one minute when, what's your prognosis or we're going to get what kind of government go ahead. i think lasha max, it's a political some be, he's already dad, but just not aware of it. and the only reason why the liberals reading parties give him the feeling that it's still alive is that it helps them to put pressure on us for the street life coalition to raise the price for what they get in return for

election. that's the only reason a no one, neither on the democrat side, nor on the conservative side could ever imagine that with a result like this. and you want in germany would accept from you with a grand coalition that only switch stop. this is a no go and jamaica, it's only a part a chip, while the ongoing, precise wireless and talk and that, and it remains to be seen at what position, which is very important given the large eagle, the head of our, okay, what we run out of time gentlemen, but one thing is for sure, angland miracles presence is going to be felt for a long time to come. many thanks my guest said london, frankfurt and in princeton. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our tc next time. and remember, crossed up the the,

the join me every thursday and the alex simon show. and i'll be speaking to guess in the world, the politics, sport, business and show business. i'll see you then, me me . ah ah ah

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