cross talking the german elections. i'm joined by my guess, mag, quarter up in london. he's a professor of political science and international relations, and coventry university, as well as the author of the book angler merkel. europe's most influential leader in frankfort. we have are like, broken now. he is a political analyst and professor of political science at stanford university in berlin. and in princeton we cross the harold james. he's a professor of history and international affairs at princeton university. his latest book is the war of ideas, a glossary of globalization, right? tillman cross talk rules and effect. that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate, it's go to you 1st in frankfurt, you're in germany here, before we talk about the, the election and what comes next. what is the legacy of anglo merkel? i mean, she is a towering figure in european politics has been for a very long time. she weathered quite a few crisis. these people have praised her, of others have criticized her. but no matter what she made

a huge mark in german politics in europe. european politics in general, what is her legacy? on the one hand, there are great achievements. she come off the and managing crisis, being quiet, managing one step at a time and financial crisis decrease crisis. the migration crisis breaks condemning. so everyone trusted as the successful crisis manager at the same time, if you're trying to, which is what you always described, the way she's, she's not as pretty chick thinker, which means that it's 16 years, we never got a sense of what she wants, that you are in union come, she didn't support mark call sufficiently with idea what direction you want to guide the european union. so domestically, she appreciated and people respect her across the party back from literally

speaking on the european lab quite well, let's get here. let me go to you in princeton. i mean for what we just heard there . she's a good manager, but not much of a politician. and in looking at the election, it seemed a lot about policy and not so much about politics, which is really quite strange because if you look at france, it's very, very political hungry poll. and there is a lot of politics going on. but the german election would very much policy driven. is that a reflection of anglo merkel and her inheritance for germany? go ahead in princeton. yes, peter, it's great to be with you and i think you're right on that. this was not a political election. there wasn't a big clash of ideas in germany, so it's very unlike france with the macro depend race or artist johnson against jeremy corbin are in the united states. they trump biden

story and a, one of the things i think it's important to realize is 1st the major people who presented themselves as possible candidates for being chance. they're all presented themselves as the continuation of mac or as so the c d u candidate was obviously the anointed air in the perfect and better show in the s b d. it was also really very much emphasizing the continuity and he looks like a figure who emphasizes the continuity with mrs. macro, also with him, which mich? getting back into the seventy's and eighty's and somebody who's tremendous new respected exactly the same way as miss in back was as a centrist figure, a crisis manager. and i think the complaint about not having a strategy is not quite right. i mean mrs. macro had a view of what liberalization means. it means germany on its own

can't really operate effectively. it needs a bigger unit, so it needs a european ational and she was pushing that and i think it's, it's unfair to say that mrs. macro didn't really understand europe, the necessity as moving forward in europe. but europe is a very diverse country. so i think you can actually expect a lot of continuity and say there's a recognition that there's a need to change the specific policies to deal with that change or not really clear . and everybody, for instance, thinks that this policy needed to deal with climate change to your 2 emissions every exactly the mechanism by which that's going to be achieved because it's going to be on popular. i think putting up tesla and prices will bring up each in crisis. and you saw the reaction against that in france, revision issue. and so there's a lot of debates in the coming weeks and months since the government is formed

about exactly how that strategy is going to be implemented. mad. one of the interesting things we look at the 2 major voting blocks in 2017. it was different now that we see that miracles blocking took a slight electoral defeat here, but i don't see that, you know, again we've, we've mentioned the u. s. in france and all that, it's not so contentious. i mean, you would think with this kind of election outcome, it would be, you know, they would be slugging it out. but actually the, the, the center is very much coveted and german politics. and i want to talk about the smaller parties because there's growing fragmentation. but it's really interesting is that even if you disagree with anglo merkel, there is this sense it's built in that we need continuity. why is that? is it because of the last series of crises that we're, we heard mentioned before, go ahead in london. i think it's because germany, berkeley and spence, conservative reform in order to maintain it. she's all those journals are the carbon copy of the definition of a true. so the, to teach in my political theory,

you know, you only make changes in order the same. and what is interesting about german politics is that in a way, it's become more in the audiological sense, conservative or just maintaining that the status quo. and the way things were and what is also interesting is that the other predictor policies, for example, we start with the vertical ti drinking bicycle. why does this have moved to the center? there was a letter that was how big are going to be going to be just on the 17th day of the christ and democratic party where they said hawkins safe and last, 2nd bulletin to go find unique football team or politics always win. and he was almost as if there was been crushing it on the ground. so everybody was trying to be the chris, which is a party that very interesting the,

the 1st 35 years. why didn't have a program. because sometimes there as a counselor. so an organizer they should like to talk. so german politics, well, very good story to reset my school there much more about why, but we all know there's some given politics where rich is the, as a problem is they've been the or. ready and, and nobody, once i get mad you, you took the words right out of my mouth because christmas not a word that you applied to german politics, particularly in the last election. but there's nothing wrong with that. ok. let's go back to our guest in frankfort. we've talked about merkle and her, the, and the, and, and her major opponents, s p d. but the next government is going to be made up of the pie breaker. the king makers are going to be the smaller parties, the green parties,

liberals like that. i mean, is this where the continuity and change meet go ahead in frankfort. well, 1st of all, to clarify what i meant in my 1st payment. i never set the euro. i said that she never present a decision where she wants europe to guide. and if we compare this with, will not, science was most likely the next chancellor sat when we formed the next generation you post damage recovery package. he called madison moment that the european union was finally see something like a fiscal union as a stabilizing macroeconomic specter to make the monetary union more robust for future economy crisis. so that might be something that we will see ending in a lot, especially the net proceedings. waiting for such a think know that germany is not taking responsibility. being more away from what

used to be the old song of eric e. s p and we have to keep our budget in order when it comes to. he's also not so much about therapies, p e a rather want to push germany to invest in on an annual basis to find the needs are coming years. and his priority as the head of the green party, of course is how to read climate change. so in case we will be, i think we're listen happening. we have a coalition of the green party and the social democrats pushing the direction which would also be beneficial for you and the effect of the liberal party that was always addressing the your off. we would build a money pipeline to the south and we would all only waste taxpayer money. so there

will be policy in the german government before we even reach the european level. harold, where was europe in this election? it was, and i want to talk about foreign policy in the 2nd half of the program. it was, it was really my, i'm talking to harold here in print. i mean, i'm really remarkable because germany is the engine per better or worse if you like it or not, of the european project here. and it wasn't on the ballot as it were. go ahead. harold was, i think in a way. yeah, sure. but you're right on that, it really was on the, in this all the main parties in the political center where explicitly pro european and that includes the f t p by the way, the anti european party at the f t a did very badly. and really only one votes in east germany at the same is true about the party. it was the former

communist party to p d. s. it also did badly got under 5 percent of the vote and still represented in the parliament though because of the peculiarities of the german election. but also really just in the eastern germany. and so in effect there's a anti european feeling in parts of eastern germany. but absolutely known in the old federal republic and there's an enormous consensus if there's an enormous consensus. you don't really need to have a disagreement about virtue in public order. it doesn't appear very prominent harold, i have to jump in here. i have to go to a hard break and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the german election. stay with our team. the the

ah. no one, no, no, no, no, no, no. put the most of the limitation. ah, unit 73. 1 was a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly biological weapons program that the world had ever known. real to production. but it will show enough keel to build on it, so new he'll keep on moved to new martha, this is miss nunez. the more do now got the sale. i

wonder, i wish to know who i know. he didn't more than a journalist, i had a little scarlet and weather and all you nice to do you want this on this? will she my new on it and all i know you're not going to give us who, why depend i make no borders? to tease you emerge. we don't have authority. we go to the back scene, world needs to take action and be ready. people are the judge,

learn commoners crisis, we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in our own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is paid for the response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we are together in the, in the welcome act across stock. we're all things are considered. i'm peter le bell to remind you we're discussing the german elections in

okay, when i want to go to math, but before i ask a question, i want to address harold. i didn't, i didn't want to give the impression that there was an anti european sentiment on the bow when i was saying a vision per your moving forward. fiscal policy, things like that. i, obviously the center is very pro european union. and so i want to make back their match as harold was just say something that a famous famous slogan that how much mit had a long time ago. but his widely widely repeated about visions in politics in schmidt said if you have a vision, you should go in consultant, doctor, and consultant optician. that's probably why. okay. matt, joy, when harold was answering his last question before i went to the break you what you raise your hand one to jump in, please do right now. go ahead man. yeah. so 1st of all that quote,

i think he actually did not say not to share with one of the more more. so what i think one of the things that he's the legacy of medical in a negative sense comes back to the wrong. the prefer important you made the wrong peter about the difference between policy and politics of policy is about what works. that politics, according to the famous german definition, is fear, way to think between grand and enemy and in politics, where he shouldn't have too many friends and enemies shouldn't be slicing. would you need an element of that sort of hash june of emotion? and i think the vote of metal has had, is that she's been very good at policy making very good a government by a spreadsheet. but sometimes you need a little bit more, especially when you feel that your identity might be and i agree with. so by the way, you know, the division of politics between friend and enemy as a definition that was produced by congress schmidt really and we're

very, very close to the nazi party. and it's exactly the vision of some people that you have and well divided into friends and enemies with a 0 sum game. and they all tentative view is a view in which you do cooperation and you to tradeoffs and you, you make compromises. and that's a, that's a realistic and productive view of the world it's, it's not, it's not a bad view or it's, it's actually very constructive. you can be very constructive. you the problem that i was going tonight was that uncle me, i can see still not focusing on the, the emotional side of politics. and when, when eastern europe in particular, felt that there was globalized station, there was the migration of the slide that then they have been basically wanting more politics and less on a c. and i think the paradox about i'm glad that she's been so focused on see that

she's failed to recognize the weather. fears of those when america might be called the left and especially people, eastern europe for eastern german for wasting germany who vote for the a f d or. ready the link s p s. ok, let's go back to our guest and frank talk about the, the, the greens and the, the other small parties here because it's very interesting that the greens didn't do as well as so many had hoped a few months ago. but if you look at the who voted forum, it was remarkably large number of young people. and in that sense, the climate was on the ballot and, and we, what i'm getting at here is there's a generational change going on. now, how do you put that into the mix here because we still have this kind of very traditional set of parties that we're, that we're all familiar with here. but, you know, the green party, in my mind is kind of a wild card because even though it didn't do as well as people expected, it's voting bass is pretty fervent and, and quite large when you,

when you look at the demographics, what do you think about that go ahead remarkable because it all started and i just party and now they are conservative and they want to conserve the environment. what we also see is supported by young people, but young people don't matter. the country the have a serious problem. when elections in the center elections with old people and maxim managed to deal with the old border from the social democrats, by me being the concept of the party, the problematic core from conservative to the center. that's allowed her to be 4 times. now that the new leaders tried to move the conservative party back to where it came from, every one went back to the social democrats. and the social democrats won the elections with voters, which means that old people are afraid of change and they are now pushed by the

liberals that one young voters party support us are young. and it will be a very interesting coalition. if it's a conservative change from the green party has a different understanding of conservatism. they'll also progressive together with the liberal party paces to slow down. not so fast, not democratic understanding of what leadership is, you know, herald. one of the things i liked about the german election is how people coined these words for potential coalitions. i'm gonna read off a few of the traffic light coalition, the grand coalition, the can you coalition, the jamaica coalition, there actually a few other ones with colors here. what's this going to look like over the next few weeks, maybe months here? what is going to be the, the bones of contention? what's going to be the deal breaker for a coalition to come into existence,

go ahead. harold and princeton will indeed say the party is all have colors that are associated with them. and so it's easy to refer to the possible combinations by the name of national flags that have to be in the color. so, the germany coalition, for instance, says black red gold or black red yellow is a black for the christian democrats. read for the social democrats, yellow for the liberals, and fundamentally point i think it is rather peculiar one that is that everybody is fed up with the great coalition, with s p d c, d u coalition. although actually looking at it numerically, that would make the greater sense in that those are the 2 largest parties and they probably could just have a very, very narrow majority in the parliament. there's

a feeling better tired. and even though the parties are very, very close and political doctrines, they didn't want to do that. and i think that makes the point again, that this is largely about personalities rather than a bad concrete policies liberal. so say, i think is being shipped by both national re liberals, our more to the rights on economic policy on financial policy and more resistant to the idea of a debt to europe getting is ation a hamiltonian moment. and the s p d and the greens would like to put up texas. so there's going to be really a substantial debate about that. and i think, you know, both actually reflect elements are profoundly represented in the german psyche. another favorite german phrase that gets recycling again and again is from good his house to so's dwelling my breast and try zealand vaughn. and i can mine approach

and j one. so says, you should do things, you should be collective and you should have a collective vision and the other. so says you need to be careful and cautious, and it's a good idea to save in order to prepare yourself for future catastrophes. one of the reasons that the german government had a big room from inova going into the covert crisis into the pandemic with a really unprecedented economic. suddenly shocked was exactly that. they accumulated the strong cisco position. they have a much greater room for new. and so they f t p 's words on caution, i think are also heated, but i show show is not a wire spend it passed and he's cautious and he's right to be cautious. he does seem to me to be exactly the to him which met and he is sometimes make something of that, you know, but madness doesn't. the grand coalition make more make sense to continue here

because of the moderation and holding on to the center here because we look at these other party, the smaller part of all last in involved compared to the last general election for the parliament here. so i mean, what do you say with what works me? i know people didn't like the grand coalition, but it was because the and particularly going through all the crises that we have seen over the last few years. you think it inevitably that's going to be it? i mean, it's fun to tinker on the sides, but is it? is it time to have fun? is it time to be tinkering? go ahead, man. i think the, the, the vanity of the, of the green policy and the liberal policy received them into government. i think it is conceivable that christian murphy, the liberal leader, will become finance minister that either need to be up or with the foreign minister . i'm calling the, the vice chancellor and then shows would be the chancellor and that would give him

the sort of support and they will be then pretty happy with those issues. the thing in germany, which is that in 65, the constitution says the charles lays out the guidelines all this. so if the child a slightly more than a prime minister, you set the tone and so on. so the other ones would get one or 2 points and they would be able to, if somebody would be, know why that passes either go off nor down, they will be happy with that. i mean, before does she go last time, the liberals were kicking up a bit faster than they ended up not going. it's collision. social democrats bear with dragged, kicking and screaming into coalition government and, and for more time in a loss of that. so i think the conservative cd you, i'm the c su, very important. it would not want to go into college because they would have to be a junior. that's right. they'd be flipped. yeah. right. let me go to you in

frankfort here to finish off here. what's your price? what's your one minute when? what's your prognosis or we're going to get what kind of government go ahead. i think lasha max, it's a political some be, he's already dead, but he's not aware of it. and the only reason why the liberals reading parties give him the feeling that it's still alive is that it helps them to put pressure on us for the street like coalition to raise the price or what they get in return for election. that's the only reason. and no one neither on the democrat side, nor on the conservative side could ever imagine that with a result like this and you want in germany would accept they continue with a grand coalition that only switch this is a no go. and jamaica. it's only a part a chip, while the ongoing, precise wireless and talk and that, and it remains to be seen at what position, which is very important,

even the large eagle, off the head of our okay, what we run out of time gentlemen. but one thing is pressure angland, miracles presence is going to be felt for a long time to come. many, thanks to my guest to london, frankfort and in princeton. and thanks to your viewers for watching us here at our tc next time. and remember, cross talk the ah, lack of universal healthcare makes america the country of every man for himself. we have a retirement crisis in this country and we have a health care crisis for seniors in this country as well. so private business has come up with a special mechanism for that. it's called the live settlement market. we are a life settlement provider,

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ah, ah, russia threatening to block you tube in the country after that video sharing platform permanently deletes are to german language channels. moscow safety u. s. company would not have acted without the approval from berlin. coming up in the program, a us marine essentially military jail after the boss thing, his government's handling of the telephone, polite in the series of viral videos, prompting angry accusations of coercive government censorship from fellow service. members that need to send extra troops to kosovo admit and arm stemmed off with serbia over the road access. you'll hear from a journalist.