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hello and welcome to cross top where all things considered. i'm peter live out as anglo merkel makes or exit from german politics. voters have made it clear. they are looking for new ideas and directions. wrinkles party suffered like total defeat with smaller parties in the mix to form a new governing coalition. will this be called the merkel inheritance the cross talking the german elections? i'm joined by my guess, man quarter up in london. he's a professor of political science and international relations and coventry university, as well as the author of the book angler merkel. europe's most influential leader in frankfort. we have are like, broken now. he is a political analyst and professor of political science at stanford university in berlin. and in princeton we cross the harold james, he's a professor of history and international affairs at princeton university. his

latest book is the war of ideas, a glossary of globalization. right? tillman cross talk rules and effect. that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciate, it's go to you 1st in frankfurt, you're in germany here, before we talk about the, the election and what comes next. what is the legacy of anglo merkel? i mean, she is a towering figure in european politics has been for a very long time. she, whether quite a few crisis, these people have praised her, of others, have criticised her, but no matter what she made a huge mark in german politics in europe. european politics in general. what is her legacy? on the one hand, there are great achievements. she is a master and managing crisis, being wyatt's man, actually one step at a time and financial crisis. the greek crisis, the migration crisis breaks condemning. so everyone trusted as the successful

crisis manager at the same time, if you've tried that, which is what you always described way she's, she's not as pretty chick thinker, which means that in 16 years we never got a sense of what she wants, that you are in union come, she didn't support markov sufficiently with idea what direction he wants to guide the european union. so domestically, she is appreciated and people respect are across the party back from literally speaking on the european level. that's quite well, let's here, let me go to you and prince that. i mean for what we just heard there. she's a good manager, but not much of a politician. and in looking at the election, it seemed a lot about policy and not so much about politics. which is really quite strange because if you look at france, it's very, very political hungry poll, and there is

a lot of politics going on. but in the german election to look very much policy driven, is that a reflection of anglo merkel and her inheritance for germany? go ahead and princeton us, peter, it's great to be with you and i think you're right on that. so this was not a political election. there wasn't a big clash of ideas in germany. so it's very unlike france with the macro depend, race or artist johnson against jeremy corbin are in the united states. they trump biden story and a, one of the things i think it's important to realize is 1st the major people who presented themselves as possible candidates for being chance that they're all presented themselves as the continuation of mac or as so the c d u candidate was obviously the anointed air in the passage and show in the s p d. it was also really very much emphasizing the continuity and he looks like

a figure who emphasizes the continuity with mrs. macro also with how much mit getting back into the seventy's and eighty's and somebody who's tremendous new respected exactly the same way as mrs. backer was as a centrist figure, a crisis manager. and i think the complaint about not having a strategy is not quite right. i mean, mrs. macro had a view of what globalization means. it means germany on its own con or the operator effectively, it needs a bigger unit. so it needs a european is ation. and she was pushing that and i think it's, it's unfair to say that mrs. mackerel didn't really understand europe or the necessity of moving forward in europe. europe is a very diverse country, so i think you can actually expect a lot of continuity and say there's a recognition that there's

a need to change. the specific policies to deal with that changed are not really clear. and everybody, for instance, thinks that this policy needed to deal with climate change. 3, tier 2 emissions every exactly the mechanism by which that's going to be achieved because it's going to be on popular. i think picking up gasoline prices will bring up eating prices, and you saw the reaction against that in france with the julie shawn. so there's a lot of debates in the coming weeks and months since the government is formed about exactly how that strategy is going to be implemented. you know, a mad one of the interesting things we look at the 2 major voting blocks in 2017. it was different now that we see that miracles blocking took a slight electoral defeat here. but i don't see that, you know, again we've, we've mentioned the u. s. in france and all that, it's not so contentious. i mean, you would think with this kind of election outcome, it would be, you know,

they would be slugging it out. but actually, the, the, the center is very much coveted and german politics. and i want to talk about the smaller parties because there's growing fragmentation. but it's really interesting is that even if you disagree with anglo merkel, there is this sense. it's built in that we need continuity. why is that? is it because of the last series of crises that we are when we heard mentioned before, go ahead in london because germany, berkey and fence conservative reform in order to maintain it. she's all those journals are the carbon copy of the definition of a true. so when you teach in my political theory, you know, you only make changes in order the same. and what is interesting about german politics is that in a way, it's become more in the audiological sense, conservative or just maintaining that the status quo and the way things were. and what is also interesting is the other predictor policies, for example, that we start with the vertical ti drinking. why?

why this have moved to the center? there was a lecture that how big it to be going to be just on the 17th day of the christ and democratic policy where they said walking, stating last year, the find unique football team or politics always win. and he was almost as if there was been corruption on the ground. so everybody was trying to be the chris, which is a party that very interesting the, the 1st 35 years. why didn't have a program sometimes don't as a counselor. so an organizer should like to talk so german politic very good for korea will watch more about that. why? but we all know there's some given politics. one where can reach is the as

a problem because they've been the, or. ready and, and nobody, once i get mad you, you took the words right out of my mouth because christmas not a word that you applied to german politics, particularly in the last election. but there's nothing wrong with that. ok. let's go back to our guest in frankfort. you know, we talked about merkle and her, the, and the, and, and her a major opponents, s p d. but the next government is going to be made up of the pie breaker. the king makers are going to be the smaller parties, the green parties. liberals like that, i mean, is this where the, the continuity and change meet. go ahead and frankfurt. well, 1st of all, to clarify what i meant in my 1st euro. i said that she never present a decision where she wants europe to guide. and if we compare it with science,

was most likely the next chancellor sex when we formed the next generation you host damage recovery package. he called madison moment that the european union will finally be something like a union, as a stabilizing macroeconomic specter to make the monetary union more robust. you cannot make crisis. so that might be something that we will see happening in a lot, especially the net proceedings on a waiting for such a think. know that germany is not taking responsibility. being more away from what used to be the old song of therapy is key and we have to keep our budgets in order when it comes to he's also not so much about therapies. p rather wants to push germany to invest in on an annual basis to find the needs

coming years. and his priority as the head of the green party, of course is address climate change. so in case we will be, i think we're listen happening. we have a coalition of the green party and the democrats pushing the direction, which would also be beneficial for you and the expect the liberal party that was always addressing your off. we would build a money pipeline to the south and we would all on the waste taxpayer money. so they will be hard to get the policy in the german government before we even reach the european level. harold, where was europe in this election? it was, and i want to talk about foreign policy in the 2nd half of the program. it was, it was remind me, i'm talking to harold here in print. i mean, i've, i'm really remarkable because germany is the engine for better or worse if you like

. it or not, of the european project here, and it wasn't on the ballot as it were. go ahead. harold was, i think, in a way, yeah, sure. but you're right on that. it really was on the, in this are all the main parties in the political center where explicitly pro european and that includes the f t p by the way, the n t, europe and poverty at the f d. a did very badly. and really only one votes in east germany at the same is true about the party. it was the former communist party to p d. s. it also did badly got under 5 percent of the vote as still represented in the parliament though because of the peculiarities of the german election. but also really just in the eastern germany. and so in effect there's a anti european feeling in parts of eastern germany. but absolutely known in the old federal republic and there's an enormous consensus if there's an enormous

consensus. you don't really need to have a disagreement about virtue in public order. it doesn't appear very prominent. harold, i have to jump in here. i have to go to a hard break, and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on the german election, staying with our team. the ah no one, no, no, no no, no. more than what they should on unit 731 was a unique organization. in the history of the world, what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly biological weapons program that the world had ever known.

real to production with enough keel to the new new looking to keep more tomorrow thought. there's no more no new and i got the sale. i wish you know, i got julie who i know he didn't know i had a couple of them and all buddy bill you nice to do want to on this she might new on it. i know i isn't more

more you know, put them out to think your boss who want to make sure, you know, board is blind to tease parish as emerge. we don't have authority. we don't actually the whole world needs to take action and be ready. not a job, people are judge governors crisis, we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way. but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is to response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes it feel very proud that we need together

in ah, welcome back to cross talk. we're all things are considered. i'm peter a bell to remind you we are discussing the german elections in okay, when i want to go to math, but before i ask a question, i want to address harold. i didn't, i didn't want to give the impression that there was an anti european sentiment on the bout when i was saying a vision for europe moving forward. fiscal policy, things like that. i, obviously the center is very pro european union. and so i want to make back their math as harold was to just say something that a famous famous slogan that how much mit had a long time ago. but his widely widely repeated about visions in politics in his ship said, if you have a vision,

you should go in consulting i. dr. consultant optician. that's probably why. okay. matt drew it when harold was answering his last question before i went to the break you what you raise your hand one to jump in, please do right now. go ahead man. yeah. so 1st of all quote, i think he actually did not say titian. it was more more so, but i think one of the things that he's the legacy of magical in a negative sense comes back to the wrong profile. important. you made the wrong peter about the difference between policy and politics of policy is about what works. politics, according to the famous german definition, is fear way between grand and enemy and in politics where he's not too many friends . enemies shouldn't be fighting, but you need an element of that sort of hash june of emotion. and i think the put of metal has had, is that she's been very good and policy making very good at government by

spreadsheet. but sometimes you need a little bit more, especially when you feel that you're to might be and i agree with us. so by the way, you know, the division of politics between friend and enemy, and that was a definition that was produced by cow schmidt. really were very, very close to the nazi party. and it's exactly the vision of some people that you have and well divided into friends and enemies with a 0 sum game. and they all tentative view is the view in which you do cooperation and you to tradeoffs and you, you make compromises. and that's a, that's a realistic and productive view of the world it's, it's not, it's not a bad view or it's, it's actually a very constructive view. it can be very constructive. you the problem that i was going tonight was that uncle me, i can see still focusing on the, the emotional side or politics. and when people in eastern europe, in particular,

felt that there was globalized station, there was the migration of the site that then they have been basically won't see more politics and less of a c. and i think the paradox about i'm glad that she's been so focused on, on a see that she has failed to recognize the where the fears of those when america might be called the left. and especially the police, the euro waste in german 4 ways to germany. who vote for the a f d or. ready d link s b s. okay, let's go back to our guest and praying for a talk about the, the, the greens and the, the other small parties here. because it's very interesting that the greens didn't do as well as so many had hoped a few months ago. but if you look at the who voted for him, it was remarkably large number of young people. and in that sense, the climate was on the ballot. and, and we, what i'm getting at here is there's a generational change going on. now, how do you put that into the mix here because we still have this kind of very

traditional set of parties that, that were often failure with here. but, you know, the green party, in my mind is kind of a wildcard, because even though it didn't do as well as people expected, its voting bass is pretty fervent and, and quite large when you, when you look at the demographics, what do you think about that go ahead. remarkable because it all started as an anti party and now they are conservative and they want to conserve the environment. what we also see is supported by young people, but young people don't matter a country that have a serious problem when elections in the center and you've been lexan with old people and macro manage to deal with the old border from the social democrats. i'm being the concept of the parties are problematic, core from conservative to the center that allowed her to be 4 times. now that the

new leaders tried to move the conservative party back to where it came from. every one went back to the social democrats, and the social democrats won the elections with voters, which means that old people are afraid of change and they are now push 5 and liberal. one young voters party support or young and it will be a very interesting coalition if it's a conservative change from the green party, has a different understanding of conservatism. they'll also progressive together with the liberal party paces to slow down. not so fast, not understanding of what leadership is you know, herald. one of the things i liked about the german election is how people coined these words for potential coalitions. i'm gonna read off a few of the traffic light coalition, the grand coalition, the can you coalition,

the jamaica coalition, there actually a few other ones with colors here. what's this going to look like over the next few weeks, maybe months here? what is going to be the bones of contention? what's going to be the deal breaker for a coalition to come into existence, go ahead. harold and princeton will indeed say the parties all have colors that are associated with them. and so it's easy to refer to the possible combinations by the name of national flags that have to be in the colors. so at the germany coalition for instance, says black red gold or black red yellow is a black for the christian democrats. read for the social democrats, a yellow for the liberals. and the fundamental point i think is, is a rather peculiar one. that is, that everybody is fed up with a great correlation with f, b, d, c, d,

u coalition. although actually looking at it numerically, that would make the greater sense in the face of the 2 largest parties. and they probably could just have a very, very narrow majority in the parliament. there's a feeling better tired. and even though the parties are very, very close in political doctrines, they didn't want to do that. and i think that makes the point again, that this is largely about personalities rather than a bad concrete policies liberal. so say i think is being shipped by both national reach the liberals, our more to the rights on economic policy on financial policy and more resistant to the idea of a debt to europe is ation hamiltonian moment. and the s p d and the greens would like to put up texas. so there's going to be really a substantial debate about that. and i think, you know,

both actually reflect elements. that's our per family represented in the german psyche. another favorite german phrase that gets recycling again and again is from good his house to so dwelling my breast and try zealand, vol. and i can my, the pros and j one. so says, you should do things, your should be collective and you should have a collective vision and the other. so says you need to be careful and cautious, and it's a good idea to save in order to prepare your so for future catastrophes. one of the reasons that the german government had a big room from a new going into the covey crisis into the pandemic were really unprecedented. economic suddenly can shocked, was exactly that. they'd accumulated to strong fiscal position. they have much greater room for new. and so the f t p 's words on caution,

i think are also heated by shots and shots. there's not a wire spend it passed and he's cautious and he's right to be cautious. he does seem to me to be exactly the to him which met and he is sometimes make something of that, you know, and, but madness doesn't. the grand coalition make more make sense to continue here because of the moderation and holding onto the center here because we look at these other party, the smaller party they all last in, in vote compared to the last general election for the parliament here. so i mean, what do you say with what works me? i know people didn't like the grand coalition, but it was because the and particularly going through all of the crises that we have seen over the last few years. do you think it inevitably that's going to be it? i mean, it's fun to tinker on the sides, but is it? is it time to have fun? is it time to be tinkering? go ahead, man. i think the, the, the vanity of the, of the green policy and the liberal policy received them into government. i think

it is conceivable that christian, the, the liberal leader will become finance minister that either lead to be up or with the foreign minister. i'm calling for the, the vice chancellor and then shows would be the chancellor and that would give him the supports and they will be then pretty happy with those. but the thing in germany, which is that in 65 of the constitution says the charles lays out the guidelines for all this. so charles, slightly more than a prime minister says and so on. so the other ones would get one or 2 points and they would be able to, if somebody would be, know why that was either go up or down, they will be happy with that. i mean, before does she go last time, the liberals were kicking up a bit faster than they ended up not going. it's collision in the social democrats where we dragged, kicking and screaming into coalition government and,

and for more time in a lot of that. so i think the conservative to see, do you i'm to see su. very important would not want to go into college because they would have to be a junior. that's right there be flip. yeah. right. let me go to you in frankfort. here to finish off here. what's your product? what's your one minute one, what's your prognosis? or we're going to get what kind of government go ahead. i think lasha max. it's a political some be. he's already dad, but he's not aware of it. and the only reason why the liberals, the greeting part, if the feeling that it's still alive is that it helps them to put pressure on us for the street life coalition to raise the price for what they get in return for election. that's the only reason a no one, neither on the democrat side, nor on the conservative side could ever imagine that with a result like this and you want in germany would accept they continue with

a grand coalition that only switch stop. this is a no go and jamaica it's only a part a chip, while the ongoing st. wireless and talk and that, and it remains to be seen at what decision, which is very important given the large ego or the head of our okay, what we run out of time gentlemen. but one thing is pressure. angland miracle's presence is going to be felt for a long time to come. many thanks my guest, said london, frankfurt and in princeton. and thanks to our viewers for watching us here at our tc next time. and remember, cross talk the i a try now where we use so many inputs on a daily basis that are completely related to reality. so think about how enclosure

media filters and they basically were present themselves in very unrealistic way. and so we come out of fomo and be involved more than that. it's about the sort of envious or something that may not exist. and it is also really tied to the fact that humans, we want to be part of the crowd. this is your media a reflection of reality in a world transformed what will make you feel safe for tyson lation community? are you going the right way or are you being that somewhere? direct? what is true? what is faith in the world corrupted. you need to this end.

ah, so join us in the depths. will remain in the shallows. ah, ah, you're still make his pulling no punches as a grill. the u. s. military talk brush for a 2nd day of something. congress of cool washington's humiliating exit from us. it was an extraordinary disaster. it will go down in history, is one of the greatest failures of american leadership. russia threatens to block youtube in the country after the video sharing platform permanently deleted out these german language channels. says that the u. s. companies wouldn't, devices without approval from the nato sends extra change the cost of an arm standoff with serbia road access. we'll be hearing from a journalist at the same.