ah, your medical county mayor cuz i don't want the choice of insurance under which way a couple of minutes in the knob, normal quote is recent, your book can listen to can he's not leave shan rigelato. ah ah hello and welcome to cross not where all things considered. i'm peter lavelle.

frances mc chrome recently said quote, the europeans must stop being naive when we are under pressure from powers, which at times, pardon their stance. we need to react and show we have the power and capacity to defend ourselves. bold words, but does europe have the political will to actually defend itself? cross ducking, european security, i'm joined by my guest adults as soon in london, he is ameritas professor of compared to bureau p and history at queen mary university of london. also in london. we have damian wilson. he is a former european parliament communications adviser, and in our slow we crossed england deason. he is a professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as author of the new book, europe as the western peninsula of greater eurasia. right gentlemen,

stock rolls in effect, that means you can jump in any time you want, and i always appreciate damien, let me go to you 1st in london. reflect upon the words of they were french president and we have to steer peons have to stop being naive. now we've heard this argument about european defense before over and over again. is it bring? is it, does it have more meaning now in light of recent events, or is it still bluster and europe? will this continue down the path that it's been on for the last few decades? go ahead in london. well, peter, i think that tons, that europe has long had an appetite for having its own military force. one of the, the key stomach bucks to that ever being realized in the past was obviously the, the presence of great britain, which, which never liked the idea. it's interesting now that now that they're out of the picture that that micron has now assume the role of fast spokesman chief for europe . ah, was angela merkel. clearly out of the picture and pretty much elaine back nowadays . the frost is really seen an adoption,

an opportunity hate to seize the initiative on leading on, leading your and then changing that into into something that it would like ah, other time. but before this, you have to do that, a partnership with germany, but that's no longer the case when we don't know how, how long it's going to take germany 2 to 4 when you government and without the backing of of a german chancellor issue on the line of the european commissioner is, is pretty much palace and he, we have maxim stair stepping. he's an premature on, on what he would like to see to say done it's, it's an interesting, an interesting time. not forgetting, of course. and he also has his own presidential elections coming up in april next year. i need to be seen as a, a big bold statesman out there leading from the front. and i think this is probably a little bit of mixture of bluster hymnals that is testing the water, the say, what, what are the temperatures there in the rest of europe for, for his ideas. ok, donald, the same question to you. i mean, i, i think there is a clear need, i mean,

it, you know, there's this whole mantra about the washington pivoting to asia and we're investing its resources and time there. i and at building a new coalition to back, it's our policies visa be china. ah, so, i mean, wouldn't it be opportune right now for the europeans? think about their own pivot and have a more of an independent form and security policy inc. it go head to donald in london. but he thought the question of having an independent foreign policy is to have a foreign policy the 1st, but i agree that you may grant. the european union has not got a common foreign policy. it isn't got even a colon fiscal regime. it isn't go to come on welfare stage them. so we're, we're not talking about something which is realistic. in the past 20 or 30 years european, the members of european union have taken different positions on foreign policy

matters. and i simply don't see it, even with the absence of britain, which in theory and theory through the certified through european union. i don't see in the absence of britain, but there's going to be any movement towards a common foreign policy. i saw her, the idea of it mccall, who has been such a poor president of france and so incompetent to have that he would be able to unite europe. now that the already strong man ha merkel has settled on. i really better be beside by the time the germans have a government which will be christmas. and the french shirt will be in a year, a pre elect, thorough face, because i have to have the elections by april. i think if i remember 2022 in which a back hall has got to fight almost certainly against a man le pen who is against no just the european foreign policy,

which is of even against the common currency. so the problem with euro is how to hold together, how to stop, or it's almost inexorable disintegration, or ina glenette, you know, a ever, irrespective how you feel about your opinion. and i have agreed with everything that's been said on this program here. but at the end of the day and you're and i, what are the things i like about your writing? you are truly a big picture guy. um, it seems to me that the trend is in less europe can get its act together. if i can use that kind of slang language here, it's just going to be left behind. i mean, it will be left behind because it's irrelevant or a minor for a player and is as damien pointed out in, you know, maybe france at one point in time will have an important foreign policy initiative . visa be the rest of the world. but it's not going to be the norm and there's no consistency here. so i mean, it seems to me, this is really a battle to avoid being coming irrelevant. because if you don't stand up yourself,

nobody else is going to do life moves on, go ahead glen. yeah, i agree. well, on levels of the critical, the ability to france to go through what it suggesting, how strong this continues to me. it is european liter without anyone to lead her. well, this is not the 1st time that you have attempted to establish autonomy, but things have changed because the role of the over the past decade, so largely been to establish some economy in order to have more equality with the u . s. and his trans atlantic partnership, but it was under unit polar orders was intended for collect, imagine money with the us on equal partnership now that the arrangement entailed in the us, you know, pay for european security and in return europeans all americans. but my point is simply that this belong to a eurocentric world because with the rise of china and emergency unit world, we see that this former format for you as your partnership, no longer really works because interest are changing our and becoming more and more

divergent. so the u. s. is focusing more on china asia and thus it's shifting both its resources and it said priorities accordingly. that was very obviously obvious with supreme dealer with australia, by the way. so when the us so years will give less to europe, but ask for more in terms of asking to you to, for example, come from china. and this is where i'm out of the tensions are these like a common interest and with europeans. the way i think they do have a dilemma one hand, they seek to maintain the relevance to the u. s. by, for example, accepting but nato should also be an anti chinese allies. however, no matter what they do with this will be very superficial in temporary because china to far waiting and the investment also a threat to the european union to the same extent. pregnancy dominance in the asia pacific. so it's also the problem for the youth. by joining this, u. s. chris, a crusade against both the russia and the chinese, the u. s. isolated south because it becomes less able to diversify pies and thus excessively reliance on the us. so i and i only use the bus and prioritize your so

the solution is simply for the you, in my opinion, at least a diversified ice. so develop an independent foreign policy towards the extent is possible, as well as both the russians and the chinese and by all means keep the trans atlantic partnership alone, but also find a place in his chin on you greater your ation partnership with these marci ration hours he owned him and it, it seems to me when i, when i look at this here in kind of an echo with glen just said to us here is that in the u. s. takes it as a axiomatic that they did, the europe will go along to pursue or push forward a washington's foreign policy interests. you know, you take care of the russians for us and we'll take care of the chinese, or we want you to be anti chinese who. i mean it's, it's very derogatory and in the way i look at it, i mean, why should the, the, an economy that's larger than the united states population larger than the united states. it basically be a junior partner and just being a messenger,

for washington's bidding. i mean it in it during the cold war that made kind of sense. but i mean, i, you know, 30 years out. i don't see the, any sense of that, particularly the withdrawal from afghanistan or the submarine dealer. i mean, when, when somebody in europe going to wake up and say, geez, maybe we got a totally rethink this thing. go ahead. but as i, i mean, i'd like to play donald trump because i think, i mean, thanks. i mean, thank you, president trump, him. he basically has driven europe back into a more in shall in, shall looking world. ah, they realize that nato is, is not the bill and all before from prison macklin took france back into into night . i remember after 43 year absence, he called the organization brained it. so even though he's a member of nato, he clearly doesn't have a lot of respect for him. i think that across the, across on the, the europe as well that the gothic nature of governments have changed. we've seen the, the, the de carnitine or the root, the strongest christian democrats government under merkel, which was

a problem solving government elect, any reality elegy which had been taken away from it by, by the far right and end of the and the far left in either seeks and of course the grains, as i, we with, with the seeing is a shift in the way that the, the politics is being played out. and being far more domestic. you've got strong leaders in poland and in the hungry i will have a strong leader in, in france. obviously we're going to be a mess initially. but these are looking at the domestic issues. but they're also looking at that the nina bonus. so it's places like turkey, turkey is in a gateway country to a far different univers out there that has nothing to do with america. really. it's very in a middle east as all the problems that are out there, all the various, issues that we would have to deal with out there, either north of ukraine and beyond that, russia and obviously everyone took their own waived of dealing with russia. while germany's quite tough, quite i nibble with a particular,

the note shame to pipeline on the k number words if i can back that, in other words, go ahead donald, your head country. each country has a different perception of what their relationship should be as a nation, as a country, as a stay with china or with russia. yes, together, europe is necessarily weak, precisely because we use the word europe, but it doesn't really mean anything. and the consequence of this is that the united states can behave in the most bizarre way towards europe, ignoring not, not in telling them by the way where we growing from afghanistan. not even telling them by the way we're making a special on baxter with australia and the united kingdom. so the humiliation pied on the humiliation. and there is no way in which euro can form a hold that i jump in here. i'm going to hold, i'm gonna jump in here, please hold that, that we're going to go to

a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on european securities name starting ah with imagine picking up a future textbook on the early years of the 21st century. what are the chapters cold, gun violence, school shootings, homelessness? first, it was my job and then it was my family. didn't was my savings. i have nothing. i have nothing and it's not like i don't try. i look for resources, i look for jobs. i look for everything i can to make this pass and i end up doing is passing time, the road to the american dream paved with dead refugees. it's very idealized image

. all this older america, native americans look past the deaths to happen every single day. this is a modem. history of the usa, my america. oh, naughty back. kaiser's financial survival. god housing bubble. oh, you mean as a downside, artificial mortgage right now get carried away. what tries to report ah, welcome back to crossfire were all things are considered on peter lavelle to remind you we're discussing european security? ah okay, i want to go back to donald in london because you are on a role as we had to go to at break there to kind of sum up what you had to say.

what question is beggs? i mean, is it even possible? europe today to have a coherent foreign policy. i mean, because if i, you know, distill what you had to say, every country is going to do what it wants to do eventually. so there, by definition, by default there is no such thing as a european foreign policy. did i get that right? go ahead donald in london. absolutely, absolutely. but it's not by default or anything. there is no european comment. foreign policy. an end of story may be there shall be one, but in order for that to appear, do you need quite a lot of work among 27 countries with each having a different electrodes and another half of the delegate, half of the 2nd continue. the degree of euro skepticism has increased enormously in the last 20 years. you're just a italy, which has to be the most pro european country, other than european union. and the leading parties are now. you are

a skeptic. the in france, my le pen need a 50 percent of the vote, presumably what i hope she'll get more is also your skeptic. and of course i'm poland, and hungary and song. they're not exactly dying to have a common foreign policy. they want to have their own foreign policy that is previously irritable it's, it's never what your opinion was about. he opinion was that, you know, was a security or a security pep rally between, between nations. it was not all the countries did not the security. no, it was not a security pack. it was it naked nomic pectin. when he can think hardly odyssey little provided security in the, in the, in the aftermath of, of, of the, the 1st for the, sorry, 2nd global and in our, around the time in the balkans it'll show showed how powerful could be. but i think the european people don't, they don't want the europeans from brussels to be making their foreign polish decisions. you only have to see how extraordinary it is when you're actually on the

line and bob shawls. michelle turn up at things like the g 7 summit and sit on the outside on almost like the just the bridesmaids at the wedding it's, it's a strange thing to say. then try to muscle in and become what be considered world leaders when listening amongst the other, the leaders of u. k. u. s. japan, i mean even canada, canada, and they look kind of like a little bit lost. they're just not wanted on that stage as a to but you know, they had sort of furniture to the proceedings hooked to where you are. so where we've been discussing, i sure. yeah. commer for, well, i'm going to tell you why gentlemen, this is a perfect segue to go to glen right now. glenn has a new book out. absolutely fascinating. subtitle to it. i really like it. europe as the western peninsula of greater eurasia. explain or simply an argument simpler, you're kind of grown up and it's a trans atlantic partnership. as an economic region,

which shows them translates into it so, massaging foreign policy. now my, my argument simpler, they can amik interests, send to discounts for more and you have this new greater you ration constellation coming along, pushed by. 1 countries like china, russia and it's kind of demanding that, that, you know, i mean, it's fine. so we have cooperating with this new constructor in order for not in order not to become to isolate in and i guess, wait to some extent see all ended up happening now. it is a good way to describe the relationship with united states as well. for example, it's what the youth going through now i would compare to what russia went through before in the 90s, in 2000 because russia have changed this if the same challenge as therapy in union, i rush only attempt to time economic integration with the rest and became too dependent on for this reason, whatever rockdale, the westwood would offer a rush. i was always the best option on the table because the west coast only game

in town right now that russia diversifying, it's a economic damage. if the west, it's true, somebody deals are sanctions, russia, camille, is shifts. it's focused towards the east, which is what it's doing. and this is kind of my argument as well as what the european union must do as well by not the lightning. it's solely to the u. s. as a country and the relative decline that has less than the strategic interest in europe. and witness there, there are some problems endemic in, with the 2 biggest nations that would have to be deal with russia, i guess. and china mean russia with the, the no string to deal which america tried to press germany to abandon. but the fact of the things nearly none, 8 percent completed at least angel myrtle. convinced that this made no sense, but they had more success with convincing ye ye to abandon its. it's our china traitor, which had spent so many years getting together. and then the american said, you know what, you just join us in a bit of pushed our hinge talk and,

and ditched his petition. some plan and i did. so i completed europe in the fall in so easily. that's the pressure they got from america. i agree, go ahead. no, i go ahead and i will not put, i will not put the relation between europe and russia at the same level on a similar level rather than the relation with china. the 2 countries are extremely different. russia exports or is fundamentally primary product. the fundamentally energy gas and oil. the export of china is not, is exactly the opposite. is consumer goods. you walk into a supermarket, a big shop in london, and the stuff from china is absolutely enormous. i mean, we will go wrong with moscow made in china, you know, to 100000000 of them and that, that, that, that the, them, it in china, the stuff we buy from russia, caviar if we're richer her both come yes. but otherwise,

it's gas and energy and things like that. so the, the fed with to the 2 countries are big and important does not mean that we can have a same relationship with both of them. certainly what we shall not go along with is the absurd notion that both countries or, or either country in wants to dominate militarily or ideologically, the rest of the, of the work during the cold warriors. there was an ideology which wanted to be global. communism. it's on but put in his me is not a global ideology, and sharing thing is not a global ideology. all the chinese want is to be able to continue grow and to resolve their economic problems. and presumably, the same as was, the russians won't say the theory, the only thing in common, but the european countries have is to stop being subservient to the united states. well, i mean, i so, and also important issue here gentlemen, let's all be honest. here i'm going to go back to glen. i mean,

at the cynic in me says the most important european export is his values and that's a cultural that it uses all the time. glenn's argument, if i get it right, this is going to be an economic infrastructure. it's going to be trade is going to be prosperity is going to be pulling up the european land mass. you know, like all boats rising here on the belt road initiative at, there's no politics in that, at least not, you know, on, on the surface. so, i mean, this is a big problem for the europeans in my opinion, because they put these other ideological priorities. first, and nobody's, there are no takers. okay. i mean, how does that bring you prosperity? most people will say, go ahead, glen. now in the well, obviously the, the ideology has made the, or has contributed to preventing you from diversifying its ties. but otherwise, i would agree that what was said before that, so obviously in russia, august of the 70 hedge,

a monic ambitions to think less of the size. and i would even contend that the china doesn't have that possibility either enough with bell during large hours in the game. but that being said, the u. s. obviously has communicate and clear had demonic policy. and this is also the problem why it wants to a well prevented europeans from them or as a 5 year time. because as long as you have successive reliance on u. s. economy, then they will be able to next exert or convert as into political influence. now, but in order for it be in for washington to keep this european and dependency it also applies to. americans have to push the europeans to not get any more chinese technologies, no more russian energy or weapon systems, no mountain road, no arctic corridor with rush hour, no investment agreement with china, no common banks or payment system. because the songs are constantly relying on your, on the list and they can extend excerpt or sorry, the over europe. so

a couple of the us dollar and bricks. is that okay? well, i would say reflections. if i can extend what you were saying there, glen, to damian, here. so at the bridesmaid, comes back into mine. is it the washington funds? europe? they'll continue. always be a bridesmaid and then an old maid. and if we follow glens logic here, go ahead. damien. well, i think if washington wants to maintain your, your pain inches, it's got to show a bit more lake because you can't tell you can't be turning around and saying, you know, to, to the french. oh, we love you. and then another back door in them on a sub submarine deal. this is not going to work. so i'm not quite sure what again to offer as a 2nd. i tried to pressure germany at not string to pipeline that didn't work. what they got left is it really is only nato that i can see so many lists i but even then is jerry barton, rick of appetite to, to resurrect that in, to sort of some seriously serious transatlantic force that's going to position

itself with one eye on russia, i guess the one on china, i'm really not sure whether what, what the american strategy will be because it, but donald trump, so pull the rug out from every one on, on this and nothing, nothing to me looks like to replace her, to be able to replace that relationship. okay, what the, what i will allow last minute goes to donald here. so what is the fate of nato which remember, macro made? these made this word these the said, these words about being naive when the, the greek or prime minister was, are announcing their buying french arms where they're buying those arms because of turkey. they're nato ally here. so what is the fate of the, of nato and all this last minute to you, donald? well, nato was funded for one specific purpose to contain the alleged aggression of the russians. ah, this aggression has now finished, but bureaucracies have got to continue. so they gone, they gone,

and every time they have to find a good reason to exist, the striker murray bond who should be dying and yet keeps on saying, well, i'm still alive, and i don't know exactly why i'm alive, but there you are. i'm and, you know, give me, do the research, take me do not. so give me the last injection off morphine. what is weird about this whole situation is that it's not clear what is it, or how europe is dependent on the united states. because if europe is not faced with a military fracture, then what is it that we need the united states for? i tell you the big think that the united states give us our ideas of microsoft, apple, that kind of stuff. but as an idea, not as a thing, the thing is manufactured in china and you know, we get the things we get the never as a cultural impact and which we would gone anyway, whether or not we do as them. okay, well i'm going to jump in here gentlemen who have run out of time. i have to agree

that the americans provide ideas but not very up more and more often not very good ideas. okay. many thanks them i guess in london and in oslo. and thanks dory, you were for watching us here. darky. see you next time. remember, cross taco lulu if you expecting me of random meant to be in the image of her best liberator. a seat. and i'm sorry, this is a wrong expectation. be you will have to see any non. a peculiarity is gone to impose the democratic system of a plant, the war, and then political order.

we live in a time now where we receive so many inputs on a daily basis that are completely, i'm related to reality. so think about how and social media filters, and they basically would present themselves in a very unrealistic way. and so we come to a promo. there is any involved. but more than that, it's about being sort of envious of something. it may not exist and it is also really tied to the fact that as humans, we want to be part of the wow way that you know one? no, no, no, no, no, no, no. well, or more real than what they should end up unit 731 was a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was

to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly biological weapons program. that the world had ever known and real no to production issue or she'll book a candle to win on sunday. she'll keep on move. my general manager thought this is meant new a new i'm i got to learn much sale. i mean, i understood, i wish to know about doing whole new he didn't. oh gosh, more or less than a jr. let's i had to put on the scar, their mother and all your body build garage door couched out. oh boy, that's good to go. that is your, oh, what on this, the wrong, she my

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