ah, hello and welcome to cross not we're all things considered. i'm peter lavelle. frances mc chrome recently said quote, the europeans must stop being naive when we are under pressure from powers which at times harden their stands. we need to react and show. we have the power and capacity to defend ourselves. bold words, but does europe have the political will to actually defend itself? cross ducking, european security, i'm joined by my guest adults. i soon in london. he is ameritas, professor of comparative european history at queen mary university of london. also in london. we have damian wilson. he is a former european parliament communications adviser and in oslo we crossed england deezen. he is a professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as author of the new

book, europe as the western peninsula of greater eurasia. right gentlemen, cross stock rules and effect. that means you can jump in any time you want. and i always appreciate damien, let me go to you 1st in london, reflect upon the words of they were french president and we have to, europeans have to stop being naive. now we have heard this argument about european defense before over and over again. is it bring it doesn't have more meaning now in light of recent events, or is this just bluster and europe? will this continue down the path that it's been on for the last few decades go heading london? well, peter, i think that europe has long had an appetite for having its own military force. one of the, the key stomach books to that ever being realized in the past was obviously the, the presence of great britain, which we should have a like the idea. it's interesting now that now that they're out of the picture, the micron has now assumed the role of fast spokesman in chief for europe. a ms.

angela merkel. clearly out of the picture, a pretty much elaine dock nowadays, the fox is really seen an adoption, an opportunity hate to seize the initiative on leading on, leading her and then changing that into into something that it would like ah, other time. but before this, you have to do that, a partnership with germany, but that's no longer the case when we don't know how, how long it's going to take germany 2 to 4. when you government on without the backing of all the german chancellor issues of on the line of the european commissioner is, is pretty much palace. and he, we have maxim step step in his own premature on, on what he would like to see. to say dumb it's, it's an interesting, an interesting time, not forgetting, of course. and he also has his own presidential elections coming up in april next year. i need to be seen as a, a big bold statesman out there leading from the front. and i think this is probably a little bit of mixture of bluster hymnals that is testing the water, the say,

what, what are the temperatures there in the rest of europe for, for his ideas. ok on donald. the same question to you. i mean, i think there is a clear need, i mean it, you know, there's this whole mantra about the washington pivoting to asia and we're investing its resources and time there. i and at building a new coalition to back, it's our policies visa be china. ah. so, i mean, wouldn't it be opportune right now for the europeans? think about their own pivot and have a more of an independent form and security policy inc. it go ahead donald in london . but he thought the question i'm having an independent foreign policy is to have a foreign policy the 1st, but i agree, the eula, green, the european union, has not got a common foreign policy. it isn't going even gone fiscal regime. it isn't going to come on welfare stage the so we're, we're not talking about something which is realistic and past 20 or 30 years

european, the members of european union have taken different positions on foreign policy matters. and i simply don't see it, even with the absence of britain, which in theory and theory through the certified through european union. i don't see in the absence of britain, but there's going to be any movement towards a common foreign policy. i saw her, the idea of it my call, who has been such a poor president of france and so incompetent to have that he would be able to unite europe. now that the already strong man ha merkel has gone. i really don't be beside by the time the germans have a government which will be christmas. and the french shirt will be in a, a pre elect, thorough face, because i have to have the elections by april. i think if i remember 2022 in which

a back hall has got to fight almost certainly against a manual of pen who is a against no, just the european foreign policy, which is of even against the common currency. so the problem with euro is how to hold together, how to stop, or it's almost inexorable disintegration, or ina glenette in a, a, in every respect of how you feel about your opinion. and i have agreed with everything that's been said on this program here. but at the end of the day, and you're and i, what are the things i like about your writing, who are truly a big picture guy? um, it seems to me that the trend is, is it in less europe can get its act together. if i can use that kind of slang language here, it's just going to be left behind. i mean, it will be left behind because it's irrelevant or a minor for a player and is as damien pointed out, a, you know, maybe france at one point in time will have an important foreign policy initiative . visa be the rest of the world. but it's like could be the norm and there's no

consistency here. so i mean, it seems to me, this is really a battle arm to avoid being coming irrelevant. because if you don't stand up yourself, nobody else is going to do it. life moves on, go ahead, glen. yeah, great. well, on levels of critical, the ability to france to pull, pull through what it's suggesting, how strong this continues to me. it is european liter without anyone to lead her. well, this is not the 1st time that you have attempted to establish autonomy, but things have changed because the role of the over the past decade, so largely been to establish some economy in order to have more equality with the u . s. and is trans atlantic partnership, but it was under unit polar orders was intended for college and had to money with the us on equal partnership. now that the arrangement entailed in the us, you know, pay for european security and in return europeans, all americans. but my point is simply that this belong to a eurocentric world because with the rise of china and emergency unit world,

we see that this former format for you as your partnership, no longer really works because interests are changing our and becoming more and more divergent. so the us is focusing more on china asia, and thus it's shifting both its resources and it said priorities accordingly. that was very obviously obvious with supreme dealer with australia, by the way. so when the us so years will give less to europe, but ask for more in terms of asking to you to, for example, come from china. and this is where i'm out of the tensions are these like a common interest and with europeans. the way i think they do have a dilemma one hand, they seek to maintain the relevance to the u. s. by, for example, accepting but nato should also be an anti chinese allies. however, no matter what they do with this will be very superficial in temporary because china's too far waiting and the sigma nothing else. a threat to the european union to the same extended pregnancy dominance in the asia pacific. so it's also the problem for the youth. by joining this, u. s. chris, a crusade against both the russia and the chinese, the u. s. isolated south because it becomes less able to diversify pies and thus

excessively reliance on the us. so i and i only use the bus and prioritize your so the solution is simply for the you, in my opinion, at least a diversified ice. so develop an independent foreign policy towards the extent is possible, as well as both the russians and the chinese and by all means keep the trans atlantic partnership alone, but also find a place in his chin on you bridge or your asian partnership. with this marcy ration hours, he owned a minute, it seems to me when i, when i look at this here in kind of an echo with glen just said to us here is that in the u. s. takes it as a axiomatic that they did, the europe will go long to pursue or push forward a washington's foreign policy interests. you know, you take care of the russians for us and we'll take care of the chinese, or we want you to be anti chinese who. i mean it's, it's very derogatory and in the way i look at it, i mean, why should the, the,

an economy that's larger than the united states population larger than the united states. it basically be a junior partner and just being a messenger, for washington's bidding. i mean it in it during the cold war that made kind of sense. but i mean, i, you know, 30 years out. i don't see the, any sense of that, particularly the withdrawal from afghanistan or the submarine dealer. i mean, when, when somebody in europe going to wake up and say, geez, maybe we got a totally rethink this thing. go ahead. but as i, i mean, i'd like to play donald trump because i think, i mean, thanks. i mean, thank you, president trump, him. he basically has driven europe back into a more in shall in, shall looking world. ah, they realize that nato is, is not the bill and all that before from present. macklin took france back into into night. i remember after 43 year absence, he called the organization brained it. so even though he's a member of nato, he clearly doesn't have a lot of respect for him. i think that across the, across on the, the europe as well that the governor nature,

governments have changed. we've seen the, the, the de carnitine or the root, the strongest christian democrats government under merkel, which was a problem solving government elect, any reality elegy which had been taken away from it by, by the far right. and, and, you know, the and the far left in, i various things and of course, the grains, as i, we with, with the seeing is a shift in the way that the, the politics is being played out. and being far more domestic. you've got strong leaders in poland and in the hungry i will have a strong leader in, in france. obviously we're going to be a mess initially. but these are looking at the domestic issues. but they're also looking at that the nina bonus. so it's places like turkey, turkey is in a gateway country to a far different univers out there that has nothing to do with america. really. it's very in a middle east as all the problems that are out there, all the various, issues that we would have to deal with out there,

either north of ukraine and beyond that, russia and obviously everyone took their own waived of dealing with russia. while germany's quite tough, quite i nibble with a particular, the note shame to pipeline on the k number words, if i can back that, in other words, go ahead donald your country. yeah, each country has a different perception of what their relationship should be as a nation, as a country, as a stay with china or with russia. yes. together, europe is necessarily weak, precisely because we use the word europe, but it doesn't really mean anything. and the consequence of this is that the united states can behave in the most bizarre way towards europe, ignoring not, not in telling them by the way where we growing from afghanistan. not even telling them by the way we're making a special on baxter with australia and the united kingdom. so the humiliation pied on the humiliation. and there is no way in which euro can form

a hold that and i jump in here, i'm going to hold, i'm gonna jump in here. please hold that thought we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on european securities names are going ah the lack of universal healthcare makes america the country of every man for himself . we have a retirement crisis in this country and we have a health care crisis for seniors in this country as well. so private business has come up with a special mechanism for that. it's called the live settlement market. we are a life settlement provider, which means that we buy life insurance policies from primarily seniors throughout the united states who are no longer want or can afford their life insurance policies. if you're sick and all the want to live a few more years,

you consillio life insurance that way you get more money right away and the company collects your insurance payment off to your death whenever there's a group of people out there, i guess hoping that people die soon. what kind of motivation is i give them when i start crying about him dying, that's usually what it's about as just the sheer unfairness of it all. oh, for ah, welcome back to cross hock. we're all things considered on peter level to remind you we're discussing european security ah okay. i want to go back to donald in london because you were on

a role as we had to go to at break there. to kind of sum up what you had to say. what question is beggs? i mean, is it even possible for europe today to have a coherent foreign policy? i mean, because if i, you know, distill what you had to say, every country is going to do what it wants to do eventually. so there, by definition, by default, there is no such thing as a european foreign policy. did i get that right? go ahead. donald in london. absolutely, but it's not by default or anything. there is no european common foreign policy. end of story may be there should be one. but in order for that to appear the needs of quite a lot of work among 27 countries. with each having a different electrodes and another half of the that would happen if i can continue . the degree of euro skepticism has increased enormously in the last 20 years. you're just a italy which shows to be the most pro european country,

other than european union. and the leading parties are now, you're a skeptic. the in france, my little pen need a 50 percent of the vote. presumably what i hope she'll get more is also your skeptic. and of course i'm poland, and hungary and song. they're not exactly dying to have a common foreign policy. they want to have their own foreign policy that is per veneer visible it's, it's never what you're paying you was about, you pena was that, you know, was a security or a security pep rally between, between nations. it wasn't all the countries to help the security. no, it was not a security back, it was in the economy baxter when he can afford to care to provide security in the, in the, in the aftermath of, of, of the, the 1st 4 or the, sorry, 2nd global. and you know, around the time in the balkans it'll show showed how powerful could be. but i think the european people don't, they don't want the europeans out from brussels to be making their foreign polish

decisions. you only have to see how extraordinary it is when you're actually on the lion and by shells. michelle turn up at things like the g 7 summit and sit on the outside. i almost like the a, the bridesmaids at the wedding it's. it's a strange thing to say. they are trying to muscle in and become what be considered world leaders when listening amongst the other, the latest of u. k. u. s. japan, i mean even kana canada and they look kind of feel a little bit lost. they're just not wanted on that stage and they to but they had sort of furniture to that to the proceedings. hope to where you are. so where we've been discussing a sure. yeah. common forum. well, i'm gonna tell you why gentlemen, this is a perfect segue to go to glen right now. glenn has a new book out. absolutely fascinating. subtitle to it. i really like it. europe as the western peninsula of greater eurasia. explain, or simply an argument simpler. you're kind of grown up in this

a transatlantic partnership as, as an economic region, which shows them translates into politics. so, melissa shared foreign policy. now my, my argument simply that they can amik interests send to discounts for more and you have this new greater you ration constellation coming along bush by. 1 countries like china, russia and it's kind of demanding that you do it fine. so we have cooperating with this new constructor in order for not in order not to become to isolate in and i guess, wait to some extent see all ended up happening now. it is a good way to describe the relationship with united states as well. for example, it's what the youth going through. now i would compare to what russia went through before in the 90s, in to thousands because russia have changed this past the same challenge as therapy in union. they rush only attempt to time economic integration with the rest. and they came to the pendant, and for this reason, whatever rockdale,

the westwood would offer a rush, i was always the best option on the table because the west coast only game in town right now that rushes diversifying and economic coming in a day. if the west, it's true, somebody deals are sanctions, russia, camila ships is focused towards the east, which is what it's doing. and this is kind of my argument as well as what the european union must do as well by not the lightning. it's solely to the u. s, as a country and the relative decline that has less than the strategic interest in europe. and witness there, there are some problems endemic in with the 2 biggest nations that would have to be deal with russia, i guess. and china mean russia with the, the no string to deal which america tried to press germany to abandon. but the fact of the things nearly none. 8 percent completed at least, angel merkel convinced that this made no sense. but they had more success with convincing ye ye to abandon its it's our china tried to which had spent so many years getting together. and then the american said, you know,

what do you join us in a bit of push the hinge, talk and, and ditch this publishes some planning. i did. so i completed europe in the fall in so easily. that's the pressure they got from america. i agree, go ahead. no, i go, i don't know, i will not put, i will not put the relation between europe and russia at the same level on a similar level rather than the relation with china. the 2 countries are extremely different. russia exports are, is fundamentally primary product. the fundamentally energy gas and oil. the export of china is not, is exactly the opposite. is consumer goods. you walk into a supermarket, a big shop in london, and the stuff from china is absolutely enormous. i mean, we will go wrong with moscow made in china, you know, to 100000000 of them and that, that, that, that the, them, it in china,

the stuff we buy from russia, caviar if we're richer her both come yes. but otherwise, it's gas and energy and things like that. so the, the fact that the 2 countries are big and important does not mean that we can have a same relationship with both of them. certainly what we shall not go along with is the absurd notion that both countries or, or either country in wants to dominate militarily or ideologically, the rest of the, or the work during the cold warriors. there was an ideology which wanted to be global. communism. it's on but put in his me is not a global ideology. and if she's in thing is not a global ideology. all the chinese want is to be able to continue grow and to resolve their economic problems. and presumably, the same as was, the russians won't say the theory, the only thing in common, but the european countries have is to stop being subservient to the united states. well, i mean, i so, and also important issue here gentlemen,

let's all be honest. here i'm going to go back to glen. i mean, at the cynic in me says the most important european export is his values and that's a cultural that it uses all the time. glenn's argument, if i get it right, this is going to be an economic infrastructure. it's going to be trade is going to be prosperity is going to be pulling up the european land mass. you know, like all boats rising here are the belt road initiative and there's no politics in that, at least not, you know, on, on the surface. so, i mean, this is a big problem for the europeans in my opinion, because they put these other ideological priorities. first, and nobody's, there are no takers. okay. i mean, how does that bring you prosperity? most people will say, go ahead, glen. oh and well, obviously, that then the analogy has made the, or has contributed to preventing you from diversifying its high spot of i would

agree that what was said before that, so obviously, you know, what russia, obviously the con, 70 hedge, a monic ambitions to think less of the size and i would even come to the china doesn't have that possibility either enough with builder and large hours in the game. but that being said, the u. s. obviously has communicate a clear had demonic policy. and this is also the problem why it wants to, it will prevents their parents from them or as a 5 year time. because as long as you have successive relies on the use economy, then there will be able to exert or come marketing to political influence. now, but in order for it be in for washington to keep, to see or being a dependency, it also applies to americans have to push to europeans to not get anymore. chinese technologies, no more russian energy or weapon systems, no mountain road, no arctic corridor with rush hour, no investment agreement with china, no common banks payment system. because the songs are constantly reliant on your,

on the u. s. and they can also extend excited or sorry, the over europe. so for example, the us dollar and i can't say written reflections. if i can extend what you were that were saying they're glen to damian, here. so at the bridesmaid comes back into mine. is it the washington funds europe, they'll continue. always be a bridesmaid. and then an old maid, if we follow glens logic here, go ahead. damien. well, i think if washington wants to maintain your, your pain inches, it's going to show a bit more lake. ha. because he can't tell you can't be turning around and saying, you know, to, to the french. oh, we love you. and then on the back door and i'm on a sub submarine deal. this is not going to work. so i'm not quite sure what to get into offer as a citizen, they tried to pressure germany at nurturing to pipeline that didn't work. what they got left is and really is only nature that i can see. so unless i but even manage jo barden, rick of appetite to,

to resurrect that in to sort of some seriously serious ha transatlantic force that's going to position itself with one eye on russia. i guess the one on china, i really not sure what the, what, what the american strategy will be. because it, but donald trump to pull the rug out from every one on, on this and nothing, nothing to me looks like to replace her to be able to replace that relationship. okay. well know what i will allow last minute goes to donald here. so what is the fate of nato, which remember, macro made? these made this word, these, the said, these words about being naive when the, the greek for our prime minister was, are announcing their buying french arms. they're, they're buying those arms because of turkey. they're nato ally here. so what is the fate of the, of nato and all this last minute to you, donald nieto was funded the, for one specific purpose to contain the alleged aggression of the russians.

this aggression has now finished a, but bureaucracies, they've got to continue, so they gone, they gone and the every time they have to find a good reason to exist is like a murray bond who should be dying or, and yet keeps on saying, well, i'm still alive, and i don't know exactly why i am alive, but there you are. i mean, jim, you know, give me do the research. she take me do not. so give me the last injection off morphine. what is weird about this whole situation is that it's not clear what is it, or how europe is dependent on the united states. because if europe is not faced with a military fracture, then what is it that we need the united states for? i tell you that big think with united states give us our ideas of microsoft, apple, that kind of stuff. but as an idea, not as a thing, the thing is manufactured in china and you know, we get the things we get the never as a cultural impact and which we would gone anyway,

whether or not we do as them. okay, well i'm going to jump in here gentlemen who have run out of time. i have to agree that the americans provide ideas but not very uh, more and more often not very good ideas. okay. many thanks them i guess in london and in oslo. and thanks dory, you were for watching us here at archy. see you next time. remember crosstalk world news by the condemning. no, certainly no board is just like the keys and you guys as a merge we don't really we don't to the world leads to take action to be ready. people are judgment. 2 come

with, we can do better, we should be better. everyone is contributing each in their own way, but we also know that this crisis will not go on forever. the challenge is grateful to response has been massive. so many good people are helping us. it makes us feel very proud that we're in it together with ah, who no one, no, sir, no, no. hon. who are job no, no, well door more real to what they should end up unit 73. 1 was a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short, then build the most powerful and most deadly biological weapons program that the

world had ever. no real good, you know, to push it was, it gives you or she'll book a dinner. good, good. good on you, son. new rochelle. he on more, more general manager thought this is meant new again from all one of our new and i got the room last sale. i got ya. i got on monday. i wish to know about julie whole knew he didn't or got one more pushed enough, jr. let's i had to put this car there, mother and all it buddy bill. can you come up hours? nice. oh boy. to go on what the on this the well, she my a new on it all. i can send more on all said mom. good. so you don't, the,

you are not on all put them out that they give us a little cars after 40 years of said interventionism by simply expanding and pretending and printing a lot of money. they got into this cargo called the, you call it mentality where simply waving a flag, you know that this actually printing more money is going to make all the problems disappear. meanwhile, politically, what we've seen in america is really remarkable. the, the liberal left whoa hearts in the media. even though that this policy is causing credible of human suffering in america. they effectively marginalize those people as quote, deplorable and really made scapegoats of the victims of j. powell and they've often said that this is a victimless crime, money printing and extortion that's practice at the fed. and yet i look at those 90000 dead americans last year from opiate overdose. i'd say j pal, you got blood on your hands because that's a direct result of mal investment,

money printing, and rogue economics that you're practicing as a charlatan. with top stories this, our concerns drive for us to business going on hunger strike. martin got his failed, serving time for launching cyber attacks against the hospital. he says mr. tracy, the teenager, we hear from his wife the last time anyone heard from in september 23rd. and that place. so scary stuff, july the other week that told me that it's the worst president in the united states . i g stands for instagram, but it also stands by inst, agreed, exploiting kids for profit us lawmakers roast facebook after the company's own research shows is instagram platform hobbs, childrens.