cross stocking european security, i'm joined by my guest donald's eye soon in london. he is a meritus professor of compared to the european history at queen mary university of london. also in london. we have damian wilson. he is a former european parliament communications adviser and in oslo. we cross england these and he is a professor at the university of southeastern norway as well as author of the new book, europe as the western peninsula of greater eurasia. right gentlemen, cross out girls in effect, that means you can jump in any time you want and i always appreciate damien, let me go to you 1st in london, reflect upon the words of they were french president and we have to say your opinions have to stop being naive, now we've heard this argument about european defense before over and over again. is it bring is it doesn't have more meaning now in light of recent events, or is it just bluster and europe will discontinue down the path that it's been on for the last few decades? go ahead in london. well, peter, i think that term that europe has long had never taught for having its own military

force. i want to leave the key stomach books to that ever being realized in the past was obviously the, the presence of great britain, which, which never liked the idea. it's interesting now that now that they're out of the picture that, that micron has was now assume the role of fast spokesman in chief for europe. ah, was angela merkel clearly out of the picture, a pretty much a lame duck. nowadays. the frost is really seen an adoption, an opportunity hate to seize the initiative on leading on, leading your and then changing that into into something that it would lock ah, other time. but before this, you have to do that a partnership with germany, but that's no longer the case. mean, we don't know how, how long it's gonna take germany 2 to 4 when you government and without the backing of all the german chancellor issues of on the line of the european commissioner is, is pretty much palace. and he, we have maxim stepping, he's an sure on,

on what he would like to see to see done it's, it's an interesting, an interesting time, not forgetting, of course. and he also has his own presidential elections coming up in april next year. or he needs to be seen as a, a big bald states been out there leading from the front. and i think this is probably a little bit of mixture of basha, hymnals said, is testing the water, the say what, what are the temperatures there in the rest of europe for, for his audition. okay. on the donald, the same question to you. i mean, i think there is a clear need, i mean it, you know, there's this whole mantra about the washington pivoting to asia and we're investing its resources and time there. i and at building a new coalition to back, it's our policies visa be china. ah. so, i mean, wouldn't it be opportune right now for the europeans? think about their own pivot and have a more of an independent foreign and security policy inc. it go head to donald in london. but he thought the question of having an independent foreign policy is to

have a foreign policy. the 1st one i agree, the eula green, the european union, has not got a common foreign policy. it isn't got even a colon fiscal regime. it isn't go to come on welfare stage the so we're, we're not talking about something which is realistic in the past. the 20 or 30 years european, the members of european union have taken different positions on foreign policy matters. and i simply don't see, even with the absence of britain, which in theory and theory through the certified the european union. i don't see in the absence of britain, but there's going to be any movement towards a common foreign policy. i saw her, the idea of it mccall, who has been such a poor president of france and so incompetent of that he would be able to unite europe. now that the already strong man, her merkel has settled,

i really don't be besides, by the time the germans have a government which will be christmas. the friendship will be in a, a pre electoral phase because they have to have the elections by april. i think even remember 2022 in which a buckle has got to fight almost certainly against a manual of pen who is a against no, just the european foreign policy, which is of even against a common currency. so the problem with euro is how to hold together, how to stop, it's almost inexhaustible disintegration or ina glenette, you know, a ever, irrespective how you feel about the your opinion. and i have agreed with everything that's been said on this program here. but at the end of the day, and you're and i, one of the things i like about your writing, you are truly a big picture guy. um, it seems to me that the trend is,

is it in less europe can get its act together. if i can use that kind of slang language here, it is going to be left behind. i mean, it will be left behind because it's irrelevant or a minor for a player and is as damien pointed out, a, you know, maybe france at one point in time will have an important foreign policy initiative . visa be the rest of the world. but it's not going to be the norm and there's no consistency here. so i mean, it seems to me, this is really a battle to avoid being coming irrelevant. because if you don't stand up for yourself, nobody else is going to do it. life moves on go ahead, glen. yeah, i agree. well, on levels of the critical, the ability to france to pull, pull through what it's suggesting, how strong this continues to me and his european leader without anyone to lead her . this is not the 1st time that you have attempted to establish autonomy. my things have changed because the role of the over the past decade to largely been to establish some autonomy in order to have more equality with the u. s. and his trans

atlantic partnership. i was under unit polar orders was intended for collecting money with the us on an equal partnership. now that the arrangement entailed at the us, you know, pay for european security and in return europeans all americans. but my point is simply that this belong to a eurocentric world because with the rise of china in the emergence of unit world, we see that this former format for you as your partnership, no longer really works because interests are changing and becoming more and more divergent so the u. s. is focusing more on china anesha and thus it's shifting both his resources and so forth. accordingly, that was very obviously obvious with supreme dealer with australia, by the way. so when the us so years will give less to europe, but ask for more in terms of asking you to, for example, come from china. and this is where i'm one of the tensions are these like a common interest. and when you're against the way, i think they do have a dilemma one hand, they seek to maintain the relevant to the u. s. by, for example, accepting but nato should also be an, an by chinese allies. however,

no matter what they do with this will be very superficial and temporary because china's too far waiting and the signal nothing else. a threat to the european union to the same extent pregnancy dominance in the asia pacific. so it's also the calling from the youth by joining this, u. s. chris, a crusade against both the russia and the chinese, the as isolated south because it becomes less able to diversify pies and thus excessively reliance on the us. so i and i only use the bus and prioritize your him . so the solution is simply for the you, in my opinion, at least a diversified ice. so develop an independent foreign policy towards the extent as possible, and towards both the russians and the chinese. and by all means keep the trans atlantic partnership alone, but also find a place in his chin on you greater your ation partnership with this marci ration house. he owned a minute. it seems to me when i, when i look at this here in kind of an echo with glen just said to us here is that the, the u. s. takes it as a axiomatic, that they did,

that europe will go long to pursue or push forward a washington's foreign policy interests. you know, you take care of the russians for us and we'll take care of the chinese, or we want you to be anti chinese who. i mean, it's, it's very derogatory in my, in the way i look at it. i mean, why should the, the, an economy that's larger than the united states population larger than the united states? it basically be a junior partner and just being a messenger for washington's bidding. i mean it in me during the cold war that made kind of sense. but i mean, i, you know, 30 years out, i don't see the, any sense of that, particularly the withdrawal from afghanistan or the submarine dealer. i mean, when, when somebody in europe go to wake up and say, geez, maybe we got a totally rethink this thing. go ahead, i as i, i mean, i'd like to play donald trump because i think, i mean, thanks. i mean, thank you, president trump, him. he basically has driven europe back into a more in shall, in, shall looking world. ah, they realize that nato is,

is not the bill and all that before from present. macklin took france back into into night. i remember after 43 year absence, he called the organization brained it. so even though he's a member of nato, he clearly doesn't have a lot of respect for us. i think that across the, across on the, the europe as well, that the governor nature of governments have changed. we've seen there the to the call at the, you know, the root, the strongest christian democrats government, under miracle, which was a problem solving government elect, any reality elegy which had been taken away from it by, by the far right and end of the and the far left in either seeks and of course the grains, as i, we with, with the seeing is a shift in the way that the, the politics is being played out. and being far more domestic. you've got strong leaders in poland and in the hungry i will have a strong leader in, in france. obviously we're going to be a mess initially. but these are looking at the domestic issues. but they're also

looking at that the nina, nist. so it's places like turkey, turkey is in a gateway country to a far different univers out there that has nothing to do with america. really. it's very in a middle east as all the problems that are out there, all the various, issues that we would have to deal with out there, either north of ukraine and beyond that, russia and obviously everyone took their own waived of dealing with russia. while germany's quite tough, quite i nibble with a particular of the note shame to pipeline on the k number words, if i can back that, in other words, go ahead donald your country. each country has a different perception of what their relationship should be as a nation, as a country, as a stay with china or with russia to yes together, europe is necessarily weak, precisely because we use the word europe, but it doesn't really mean anything. and the consequence of this is that the united states can behave in the most bizarre way towards europe, ignoring not,

not in telling them by the way where we growing from afghanistan. not even telling them by the way we're making a special baxter with australia and the united kingdom. so the humiliation pied on their humiliation. and there is no way in which euro can inform of here all that. and i, and i jump in here, i'm going to hold, i'm gonna jump in here, please hold that. thought we're going to go to a hard break. and after that hard break, we'll continue our discussion on european securities names are ah ah, with ah, if you would expect to be of random and put me in the image with

a seat. and i'm sorry, this is a long explanation. be you will have to see if that is done. you want me to go on as, but it won't go to the big julie entities. you've got to impose the estimate, a democratic system onto a plant, the war and the political order the lack of universal health care makes america the country of every man for himself. we have a retirement crisis in this country and we have a health care crisis for seniors in this country as well. so private business has come up with a special mechanism for that. it's called the life settlement market. we are a life settlement provider, which means that we buy life insurance policies from primarily seniors throughout the united states who are no longer want or cant afford their life insurance

policies. if you're sick and full, to want to live a few more years, you consillio life insurance. that way you get more money right away and the company collects your insurance payment off to your death. as a group of people out there, i guess hoping that people die soon. what kind of motivation is i give them when i start crying about him dying? that's usually what it's about as just the sheer unfairness of it all. ah, welcome back, the cross walk where all things considered i'm peter level to remind you we're discussing european security. ah okay, i want to go back to donald in london because you were on a role as we had to go to at break there to kind of sum up what you had to say.

what question is beggs? i mean, is it even possible for europe today to have a coherent foreign policy? i mean, because if i, you know, distill what you had to say, every country is going to do what it wants to do eventually. so there, by definition, by default there is no such thing as a european foreign policy. did i get that right? go ahead donald in london. absolutely, but it's not by default or anything. there is no european comment. foreign policy. an end of story may be there shall be one, but in order for that to appear, you will need of quite a lot of work among 27 countries with each having a different electrodes and another him, a half of the that would happen. the 2nd continue, the degree of euro skepticism has increased enormously in the last 20 years. you're just a italy, which has to be the most pro european country of the van european union. and the leading parties are now you're a skeptic. the in france, my la pen need

a 50 percent of the vote. presumably what i hope she'll get more is also your skeptic. and of course i'm poland, and hungary and song. they're not exactly the dying to have a common foreign policy. they want to have their own foreign policy. that's his previous irritable it's. it's never what your opinion was about. he opinion was that, you know, was a security, a security pep rally between, between nations. it wasn't all the contribution of the security. no, it was not a security pack. it was an icon on baxter when he could be hardly provided to provide security in the, in the, in the aftermath of, of, of the 1st 4 are the, sorry, 2nd global. and you know, around the time in the balkans it'll show showed how powerful could be. but i think the european people don't, they don't want the europeans for from brussels to be making their foreign polish decisions. you only have to see how extraordinary it is when you're actually on the

line and by shout michelle, turn up at things like the g 7 summit and sit on the outside. i almost like the, the bridesmaids at the wedding it's, it's a strange thing to say. they are trying to muscle in and become what can be considered world later when listening amongst the other, the leaders of u. k. u. s. japan, i mean even canada, canada and they look kind of like a little bit lost. they're just not wanted on that stage. they to but they had sort of furniture to that to the proceedings. who are you are so where we've been discussing, i sure. yeah. common for, well, i'm going to tell you why gentlemen, this is a perfect segue to go to glen right now. glenn has a new book out. absolutely fascinating. subtitle to it. i really like it. europe as the western peninsula of greater eurasia. explain or simply an argument simpler, you're kind of grown up and it's a trans atlantic partnership as an economic region, which shows them translates into politics. so melissa shared foreign policy. now my,

my argument simply that they can amik interests send to discounts for more and you have this new greater you ration constellation coming along bush by. 1 countries like china, russia and it's kind of demanding that you do it fine. so we have cooperating with this new constructor in order for not in order not to become a isolated and i guess wait to some extent, see all it ended up happening now. it is a good way to describe the relationship with united states as well. for example, it's what the youth going through now, i would compared to what russia went through before in the 90s, in to thousands because russia have changed this past the same challenge as therapy in union, i rush only attempt to time economic integration with the rest and became too dependent and for this reason whatever rockdale did the westwood offer a rush, i was always the best option on the table because the west coast only game in town

right now that russia diversifying and economic coming it if the west it's through somebody else or sanctions, russia, camille, is shifts. it's focused towards the east, which is what it's doing. and this is kind of my argument as well as what the european union must do as well by not the lightning. it's solely to the us as a country and the relative decline that has less than the strategic interest in europe. and witness there, there are some problems endemic in with the 2 biggest nations i would have to deal with russia, i guess. and china mean russia with the, the nurturing to deal which america tried to press german shoe abandon. but the fact of the things nearly none. 8 percent completed, at least, angel merkel convinced that this made no sense. but they had more success with convincing ye ye to abandon its it's our china trying to which had spent so many years getting together. and then the american said, you know, what do you join us in a bit of pushed a hinge to on and,

and ditch this patricia some planning i did. so i completed the european fallen so easily, but that's the pressure they got from america. i agree, go ahead, i go, i don't know, i will not put, i will not put the relation between europe and russia at the same level on a similar level rather than the relation with china. the 2 countries are extremely different. russia exports or is fundamentally primary product. the fundamentally energy gas and oil, the export of china is not, is exactly the opposite. is consumer goods. you walk into a supermarket, a big shock in london, and the stuff from china is absolutely enormous. i mean, we'll go wrong with moscow made in china, you know, to 100000000 of them and that, that, that, that the, them, it in china, the stuff we buy from russia, caviar if we're richer her both come yes. but otherwise,

it's gas and energy and things like that. so the, the fact that the 2 countries are big and important does not mean that we can have a same relationship with both of them. certainly what we shall not go along with is the absurd notion that both countries or, or either country in wants to dominate militarily or ideologically, the rest of the, or the work during the cold warriors. there was an ideology which wanted to be global, communism. and so on, but put in his me is not a global ideology. and if she's in thing is not a global ideology. all the chinese want is to be able to continue grow and to resolve their economic problems. and presumably, the same as was, the russians won't say the theory, the only thing in common, but the european countries have is to stop being subservient to the united states. well, i mean, i so, and also important issue here gentlemen, let's all be honest. here i'm going to go back to glen. i mean,

the cynic in me says the most important european export is his values and that's a cultural that it uses all the time. glenn's argument if i get it right, this is going to be an economic infrastructure. it's going to be trade is going to be prosperity is going to be pulling up the european land mass. you know, like all boats rising here are the belt road initiative. and there's no politics in that, at least not, you know, on, on the surface. so, i mean, this is a big problem for the europeans in my opinion, because they put these other ideological priorities 1st and nobody's. there are no takers. okay. i mean, how does that bring you prosperity? most people will say, go ahead, glen. oh, and well, obviously, the analogy has made the, or has contributed to preventing you from diversifying its ties. i would agree that what was said before that and obviously, and you know, what russia, obviously the con, 70 hedge, a monic ambitions to think less of the size. and i would even contend that the

china doesn't have that possibility either enough with bothering larger hours in the game. but that being said, the u. s. obviously has communicate a clear, had demonic policy. and this is also the problem why it wants to, it will prevents their parents from them or to find your ties. because as long as you have successive relies on it use economy, then there will be able do next excerpt or come marketing to political influence. now, but in order for it be in for washington to keep this european independence, it also applies to americans have to push to europeans to not get anymore. chinese technologies, no more russian energy or weapon systems, no mountain road, no arctic corridor with rush hour, no investment agreement with china, no common banks payment system. because the songs are constantly relying on your, on the u. s. and they can extend exactly sorry, the over europe. so for example,

in the us dollar, and i can't say written reflections. if i can extend what you were that were saying they're glen to damian here. so if the bridesmaid comes back into mine, is it the washington funds europe, they'll continue. always be a bridesmaid and then an old maid if we follow glens logic here, go ahead. damien. well, i think if washington wants to maintain your, your pain inches, it's going to show a bit more lake. ha. because you can't tell. you can't be turning around and saying, you know, to, to the french. oh, we love you. and then on the back door and i'm on a sub submarine deal. this is not going to work. so i'm not quite sure what to get into waffa. as a city, they tried to pressure germany at nurturing to pipeline that didn't work. what they got left is and really is only nature that i can see. so unless i but even manage jo barden, rick of appetite to, to resurrect that in, to sort of some seriously serious ha transatlantic force that's going to position

itself with one eye on russia. i guess the one on china, i really not sure what the, what, what the american strategy will be. because it, but donald trump, so pull the rug out from every one on, on this and nothing, nothing to me looks like to replace her. to be able to replace that relationship. okay, well go, well, i will allow, last minute goes to donald here. so what is the fate of nato which remember, macro made? these made this word these the said, these words about being naive when the, the greek or prime minister was, are announcing their buying french arms. they're, they're buying those arms because of turkey. they're nato ally here. so what is the fate of the, of nato and all this last minute to you donald? well, nieto war was funded the, for one specific purpose to contain the alleged aggression of the russians. ah, this aggression has now finished a, but bureaucracies, they've got to continue. so they gone, they gone, and every time they have to find

a good reason to exist is like a murray bond who should be dying or, and yet keeps on saying, well, i'm still alive and i don't like the why i am alive. but there you are. i'm in june, you know, give me, do the research, take me to not to give me the last injection off morphine. what is weird about this whole situation is that it's not clear. what is it, or how europe is depended on the united states. because if europe is not faced with a military fracture, then what is it that we need the united states for? i tell you the big think with united states give us our ideas, microsoft, apple, that kind of stuff. but as an idea, not as a thing, the thing is manufactured in china, i'm, you know, we get the things we get the never as a cultural impacts and which we would gone anyway, whether or not we do as them. okay, well i'm going to jump in here gentlemen who have run out of time. i have to agree

that the americans provide ideas but not very up more and more often. not very good ideas. ok many thanks. and i guess in london and in oslo and thanks dory, the worse for watching us here. darky. see you next time. remember crosstalk, will i lose you? no one mission an hon. hooked up, luna? little more shilton with a ship. ah, unit 731 was a unique organization in the history of the world. what they were trying to do was to simply do nothing short and build the most powerful and most deadly

biological weapons program that the world had ever known. drill a production issue or show that they're not killed when you saw new rochelle, he on more more general manager thought this meant new against the more not up on there and i got the owner myself. i got your name. i wonderful. i wish to know, i've got to like, oh no, i know you guys are more pushed in jail it's i had to put all of this kind of their mother and all everybody built a couch. nice. oh boy. good to go on. what the on this the well, she my, and new on it. i'm all, i can send more on all said mom, good student. i don't the, you know, not all put them out that they give us

a little cars after 40 years of sad interventionism by simply expanding and pretending and printing a lot of money. they got into this cargo called did you call it mentality? where simply waving a flag, you know that this actually printing more money is going to make all the problems disappear. meanwhile, politically, what we've seen in america is really remarkable. the, the liberal left and their co hearts and the media. even though that this policy is causing credible to human suffering in america, they effectively marginalize those people as quote, deplorable and really made scapegoats of the victims of pal. they've often said that this is a victimless crime, money printing and extortion that's practice at the fed. and yet i look at those 90000 dead americans last year from opiate overdose. i'd say how you got blood on your hands because that's a direct result of mal investment, money printing, and rogue economics that you're practicing as

a charlatan. ah simpson, with the toyota insurance, under which way your copy visits in the knob, normal quote, is recent, your book can listen. you can use not leave sure . i talk

with it. i tend to nationals, world news. it's 6 is grow for us to based on reported hunger strike, martin got was filled, setting time for cyber attacks on a hospital. he says severely, mistreated to teenage it. we hear from his wife and the last time anyone heard from in september 23rd. that says gary, i spoke to the other week that told me that it's the worst president in the united states. you in gas prices in europe. he take new records with the german government warning people to prepare for a close to freezing month. meantime, the country energy regulators still the ground and operating license to the now fully completed russia node stream to gas pipeline.