hello, welcome to was a part of the most international players formulating their reaction to use withdrawal from a gas. and it's quite a challenge to many pros and cons to tightly intertwined. it's use notable exception while the india decry as the worst possible outcome and in actual bending before terrorists. pakistan is celebrated as an indication of that strategy and a recognition of the reality on the ground. last week we brought you from the valley. so let's now root is lot to speak to a lot county director general of the institute of strategic status is law. former for a secretary of pakistan and the former ambassador to the united states. and that's, it is great privilege to talk to you. thank you very much for finding the time. thank you for having me. now, you know, last week i spoke to your colleague from india and predictably he's reaction to

what's going on in afghanistan was very, very bitter. but as far as i can gather on your side, it's quite the opposite. you wrote recently that pakistan and afghanistan for the last 20 years has been proven accurate. what makes you believe that? because by this donald is indicated that there should be a political solution. because we talk military ripley was not possible, not desirable for 17 and a half years. and i just did not believe until we decided to engage in docs with the but and the it was we actually want and that even the afghan come into the factions would also be associated because an inclusive piece is something that we would be would infested because boxed on had been so severely impacted by the state, but if you know that, i'm glad that finally, the political process started. but unfortunately,

the rush of benny did not engage in enough. gone talk seriously. and the rest is history. but even now on message because he thought it on should be that distributed to some additional big everybody along was that we need it. peaceful effects then let us a far as they type it then and again is done in bias. i reach, you know, is a controversial subject. we all know from historic experience that the athens i fiercely independent them. they do not submit easily to a foreign fashion, but i think it's also well known that there is some degree of understanding between pakistan and the taliban. how big is that understanding or influence in your estimation and how can one talk to the taliban so that they would listen rather than resist the taliban and bulk of the african balaban gander is and has been in afghanistan all alone. and we have been maintaining that there are

team 1000000 refugees and sometimes on valuable, don't visit bogus, and that's the only leverage we had on them. unfortunately, the united states government and the afghan is done, government kept on defeating this mantra. their daily bonham shaped trees in pakistan which was not effect her and her as a result. they were using this to justify their lack of success or failure in one of their military strategy. and my son was consistently saying that no go back to earth. look inside afghanistan or all the solutions, and not in august that bogus, i actually would not like to have any proxy or any previous in stock, including oh, with all due respect, ambassador in that really am geopolitically honest. because i, you know, all of the countries that have security interest in afghanistan,

they do have certain proxy forces there. i mean, that makes sense from the point of view of both intelligence and security. so how can you claim or argue that pakistan would have none, or would want to have known when your basic security so tightly lead to that country? i think it's important at this point in time for every country or more. so the legion lucas is of fan, is on the neighbors of badness, than to start respecting of, understand as an independent sovereign country. we have seen that intervention was twice or get union than by united states. every man is man, i think we should give the people who understand it big or so. my sense is that there should be no proxies enough done by any country. and i know that india didn't use of swale against pakistan, but i am saying that no gun, montoya, or any strategic objectives, any technical, that's the best treatment and respect we can give to the people that i want to tell

them came to power on 25 years ago, pakistan was one of the very few countries to officially recognize that government . do you think history? i will repeat this out. and if so, how quickly? i hope it does not because i think the taliban offer yesterday. is there a way to do ology, and this time around this seem to be more market. they have made certain commitments. there made a commitment that there will be amnesty for all they have made a commitment that women will be allowed to work and study. and then they will not allow a dentist entities to, to make good to use a full on soil against anyone. and they're also a sort of committed that we have an inclusive government. now all these for them to me, it, it, if they on that i, you can see it very positive response from all countries,

especially the regional countries and international community. but if the door any follow on those for commitments i, i think that they will not be doing any service 2 of them. i think the issue of our international recognition is a very thorny and very fasting one. not only for the taliban, but also for the so called international community, because everybody has very strong reasons to do that. and not to do that. as long as the taliban is listed as a terrorist organization by the united nations. we have to recognize that any contacts with down, formally speaking is a violation of international law. so my question to you is, would you rather see all those countries, russia, pakistan, india, china, the united states. again, everyone who is in any shape or form is involved in the region, i'm attaining certain context with the talent, and would you rather continue seeing them do that covertly or rather come into

compliance with the international that they themselves created a few years ago? yeah, you see the united states was the 1st one to, while it's that the brother 67 un security council sanctions regime. and this started talking to the 31st over 3. then honestly, so that was kind of recognition dog. the thought about as a political intern go to entity, i don't tank now. people can turn around and asked by august on these are the other, why are you talking to them? they're all have to talk to them because we're we needed the end of the days. he's full of granny's thought, and that can happen until you brought to the doctor the thought about and of course, other african fractions. i fully understand the logic from the real politic perspective, but i'm asking you about the respect of international lawyers. it's not about the americans. i mean, unless you treat them as a sort of

a little guardian of that law. but if we as international community, russia, pakistan, and other countries, if we read that international law, should we deal with that moment? not from reality, reality perspective. but from the, from the legal perspective and the perspective and absolutely legally speaking, taliban, i'm now involved in a for gun is done and they have given certain commitments and a bid on of those commitments. and i think this would be an, a recommend a counterpart commitment from the actual community interest them from that that the sanctions regime. and i think that that would probably be a necessity. now there were just la pakistan in northern india were part of one states. i think you would recognize that that country has deep connections to india and security interest. and you, russia, security, interest to pakistan,

security interest, and pretty much everyone who is in the region has say, in afghanistan, do you think all these varied and sometimes very opposite? think your interest could be well aligned with some semblance of harmony. i mean, the only alignment that he'll bring be store every one blue with the entire region is up for that is that if offline is done, is we are seeing that there's been military action that have been spin on whatever else was going on. we have seen that it has led well the instant before i believe that every country, every country, should respect the sovereignty of an understand a let this piece be a full on lead and a plan on. however, that said, i think the legion has a responsibility to facilitate that these who assist the land foreman is inclusive government and done bit affairs as

a normal country. now speaking about regions responsibility a few weeks ago, an indian prime minister there and your mother was addressing one of the big russian conferences. and he specifically mentioned the situation in afghanistan and mentioned this indian concept of son gama. we can sanskrit means the confluence of several, the reverse. do you think? you think that's just a beautiful rhetorical tool or is it something that has strategic necessity or perhaps strategic conditions to be realized for the benefit of your age as a hall? b m. m. national point of august on la make by gord of can, is done is hard facia that if your heart is weak, be and die, continent will be weak. so there have been different phrases to describe the importance of punishment. there's no doubt about it that a plan is done as a religion connecting the sub regions of south asia, recitations until asia is no,

don't about color. with that said, i think i'm my saying, but we did not see india playing in it, playing a positive role there. they intend to use a foot on intelligence to sponsor and be bugs on elements like that. he get to live on august on like, look, just on liberation, all me and others to create and stimulate inbox. and we were constantly saying that the of non government must not give up space to india, who is using the launch coil to create a double squeeze against bux, i'm from east and west it from situation. been for, i don't know what mr. m. worthy had in mind when he said that he did a some them, but probably it is important that we realize that we need to send them to be more useful to know because it is one of my son can ensure more stability knowledge. now us thinking about stability as little governance and the world for the most part have now assume wait and see attitude towards the talent which i know that i'm in.

pakistan have criticized and dangerous. i wonder what do you think would work better? sort of waiting and seeing the talon to prove itself as a legitimate government and only that for them funds and expertise to rebuild the country or on the country. offer assistance now and by that sort of pay to wait for the town to grow into a legitimate government. i think humanitarian assistance should be extended to regardless because the people must not be there must not be allowed to land into desperate situation. i think that international community and the regional countries for anyway and as for technical assistance to run the government and do and to financial assistance. my, it is my sense that all countries of the region are already broken to each other, coordinating because they want to coordinate and response. i think it is an

expectation in amongst the regional countries that lead now that united has moved away h a. it is their responsibility to assist us understand established conditions of peace. but in the been in the country are the same time. i think them for austin, demands all united states, not to abandon of sunday responsibility. they were here for 20 years. they need to support conditions of peace enough. got a son and i wrote them to stay engaged in pencil. silva for in a denison has been a recipient of for an assistance for more than 4 days. and i think it's fair to say that it has never been efficiently used or even appreciated. and i, her, i heard you say recently in one of your species that garrison has everything it needs to make its own living and handsomely so and preserve its independence and sovereignty in that way. can you speak more about that?

yes, certainly i think so because i've got to son is an inch country in many ways. no one is going on 2 by august on it has access to parks on boards, a furnishing by 3rd grade with pakistan and also the lead on and others. and everyone is on his legend. mendo saw that if the conditions of peace can be established, i'm sure china and others would like to invest. the ne, also know that he's done can earn a lot from the transit fees if it allows these energy central is here to send us energy flows to south asia. one is done, but i've been b and took medicine and gas pipeline. there's been a while and as you from of lantus, from budget on and get this done. so i see that if this initial fears can be offered and thought about, are able to use the condition, the expectations from the regional countries. i see that it will be a rich country,

it can be a rich country, a, a very short short break on this very positive. and now we'll get back to the discussion in just a few moments station. ah, we both to what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy even foundation, let it be an arms race is often very dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time time to sit down and talk imagine picking up a future textbook on the early years of the 21st century. what are the chapters

cold, gun violence, school shootings, homelessness? first, it was my job and then it was my family. didn't was my savings. i have nothing. i have nothing and it's not like i don't try. i look for resources, i look for jobs. i look for everything i can to make this pass and i end up doing is passing the road to the american dream paved with dead refugees. it's this very idealized image of this. older america makes americans look past the deaths to happen every single day. this is a modem history of the usa by america, kona t. o . mm hm. welcome back to well, the far as with my child,

read director general of the institute of strategic studies, his mom about and as former laughter to the united states. ambassador, before the break, we were talking about afghanistan reaches and it's unique position as a transit country. but he also mentioned that it's sitting on very large mineral beaches. it has large deposits of precious and rare materials, particularly as we know that in the day and age china and the west are embroiled in very, very big battles for the strategic control of those deposits. how do you see that playing out in the next few years? and they can see that as a, as a blessing or a curse, as far as the future development of garrison is concerned. i think it depends how it turns out. a united states sir, competition with china. and i hope that it does not enter offline his son and

his member. well, i believe a plan is done and the people of afghanistan deserved her dad bare minerals, his exploited in a more systematic manner and the fluids off bad development. go to the directly to the people off of that country and in there should not be a competition or rivalry between any countries and equal or 3 or more countries, or that i think people of afghanistan, at least we owe it to them because for 40 years they have suffered enormously, we owe it to them. and so if conditions of peace can be establish an honest abolition, it is my sense that they're both china and branch united states to be corporate america would likely invest and he's a big company. there are different areas where it can be invested and i think those kind of investment and one more area. if i meant dimension extension all for a c back, dyna, pakistan. economic. got it,

or both china and bugs that have given this indication that we would like to extend this see back to understand. in fact, if you come from the other, the southern port in the indian ocean upward, the 1st work of trust, your own point is a kind of city of cannot. if you just spend a rest a little bit. and if you keep going, and you can also, you know, benefit east of that is that, but my sense is that there is a desire amongst the regional companies and hopefully amongst the restroom from pittsville. ford understand should be a place where we should invest and let the fruits descend to the people on amazon as well. well, if you will also to handle the ability of the taliban to manage the country's enormous treasures in people, and this leads me to my next question. because we know the aside is by governing. even in accordance with serial law is a very different than their tedious challenge and tower on fighting on foreign

invaders versus a talent on running its own domestic affairs. do you think there will be different than i do? they have to be different fighting and then go buying force is one thing, but plenty of countries is another thing. and that is why all these 4 conditions and commitments that they had made them who made that commitment and the international community. and that is including my country, have an expectation from of about, from the body onto one of those commitments. because we believe that if they don't, then it would be difficult for them to run and they would need technical assistance, financial assistance, they would need all the help that they're going to going to or for that. they have to show that they're ready for a national division surrounding i've got a hearing wars or before about growing internal tribes.

those taliban fighters that me patrolling the streets of a city on, on this same talent functionaries negotiated with the american c. doha, do you think the tower than later, to spend the last 20 years and do you think they have enough authority to shave the van from the ground? a will have to reconcile with because fighting force is one and a good thing force is another. and therefore, they will have to manage this transition so far. in the last 20 years times prediction reports were made by anyone splintering. and that did not happen, i think be their leader continued to enjoy the authority or no. no, he can keep the won't gather in go on. this is something that i will teach.

i would not like to enter into speculation rather than this be on that. i do hope that they are able to manage the country in a manner that it brings peace otherwise they all. busy sent to lou and we all center. now you mentioned before, all the commitments that they found and made so far and a gave the international community, you know, the kind of crazy that community wanted to hear on women's visor and city. although all those now say yes to be, you know, put into actual policies are catchphrase that i think it's because the missing from all the statements is democracy and democratic transition. do you think the talent could and should be prior to that? and the kind of democratic procedure is that the previous governments maintain

but i am certainly no one in a position to dictate or i think it as to what the on order should be. because i believe that the, even if the on the traction would go in the democratic order, they will probably be been gone. 6 your special value. i have to say, no, i am. i am going to be more than this. because if you are expecting the non government will be in the image, ok, best to see, and i'm sorry, this is a wrong expectation. you will have to see a entities. you've gone to you. what was the

democratic system on both understand it evolved and the political order best my my sense. okay, let me be a devil's advocate for a moment because earlier in the discussion we mentioned this wait and see approach at many countries have adopted. so it, is there anything in your view that will won't be able to see and time coming from the taliban? i personally feel that if the dial a bond go back to their ways of 1990 s when they were involved. i don't think they're going to be serving themselves any favor any, but they've got to be more inclusive. you've got to carry others along, and they're working on of those commitment. that's my sense. if the door i, i'm afraid there would be difficulties and i will follow through their committee. and finally, if i may let me draw on your experience as pakistan's ambassador to the united states and ask you specifically about

a possible ties with the united states on these new area met ministration, which includes figures. mister honey was pointed to the interior ministry by being on the most want at least, and the 5 credible before that he may still be holding an american hostage. do you think washington will still want some sort of a relationship with the new or a capital or do you think that that relationship may already have been established? the americans have been talking to with the taliban for the aust. 2 and a half years and nothing has really changed in that sense. and since the deal in february 2020, it was the same bond and they can go to bed now that they've been drawn, that has been in austin, the mon, the american association from all the channels that you should stay engaged,

that you, all the people who understand what blood has been shed, so much destruction has happened and you need to support the process. offer you peace and development in afghanistan. how will that happen in to ship if of a gun, if united states actually disengages itself from a non completely, then i'm sure there will be problems because you're not sure. preeminent bought on the evidence sponsibility to so much of the but i think it will not be fair on the nicer say. oh, it's a regional problem then the regional countries 100 we have nothing to do with that . i don't think that's a good idea. i think, you know, i just need to stay in gauge. i think the regional countries need to play their part and all of that in service of the city can be seen of understand, do you think the united states, after all the humiliation that it has endured during the withdrawal the, you know,

those massey and sign a be able to come to the regional table as one of many, certainly an important player and vital player player, but one of many are ready to consult and maybe can gauge with others. or do you think this one, you know, old american attitude that a lot of them to get to send in the 1st place is still there. i think all countries and i can certainly speak for august on have been had been constantly telling the united states that we would expect is responsible for all i think the idea was. busy that if united golden in his it could be what happened? you know, but unfortunately, debate would doubt that it just ended up making a deeper goal. and we saw that on board in just 11 days and all of their expectations and random and, and up on national,

on maybe or turned out to be false. now, united states should, i think, in the division of the countries awoke out a strategy the government with us and to see that there is a more stable political dispensation than the one they formed. and no chair to miss so much money and which would not sustain even little pressure and the guy, much not me, did not put on all any fight at all. so i do you have the responsibility still to stay engaged with? well, i'm back there. we have to leave it there. i hope you're late us, you will be, jack indicated just as much as back as a strategy. you know, guys done over the last 20 years. i really hope that americans come to this region as somebody who wants to contribute rather than somebody who wants to control anyway. we have to live in there. thank you very much for your a much. thank you. thank you,

and thank you for watching hope to see you again next week on wells apart. ah mm ah ah ah, ah

ah, in the storage the shape, the way karen r t. a bombshell report and led you to see i planned to kidnap will recess and 8 wiki leagues found a catering assange with the agencies. former chief mike pompeo at the center of cloth. also this i russia referenced to block ye cheap off to the video sharing platform. lately deletes artes german language channels. moscow de believes the u. s. company would not have acted with act approval from berlin o site to come for ordinary disaster. if we didn't have a president, it was so adult, you all would be fired. i don't think anyone can trust anything this president says about afghanistan. u. s. role make his lambaste president biden, and his talk.