ah, in welcome to all that are the most international players formulating that reaction to use withdrawal from a gas that is quite a challenge to many profit kong tightly intertwined. it's use notable exception while the india to cry as the worst possible outcome and an actual bending or terrorist pakistan is celebrated as an indication of that strategy and a recognition of the reality on the ground. last week we brought you from the valley. so let's now root is love to speak to a not my child, re director general of the institute of strategic status is la, former foreign secretary of pakistan and the former ambassador to the united states

. and that's, it is great privilege to talk to you. thank you very much for finding the time. thank you for having me. now, you know, last week i spoke to your colleague from jan. predictably, he's reaction to what's going on in afghanistan was very, very bitter. but as far as i can gather on your side, it's quite the opposite. you wrote recently that i get a sense of the last 20 years has been proven accurate. what makes you believe that? because pakistan, all of it indicated that there should be a political solution because we talk military ripley was not possible, not decided, but for 17 and a half years. you know, just it did not believe it decided to engage in talks with the thought it but, and there. well it was we actually want and that even the afghan government,

under the factions would also be associated because an inclusive piece is something that we would, we would invested because bucks on had been so severely impacted by the people. if you know that, i'm glad that finally, the political process started. but unfortunately, the rush of benny did not engage in enough gone talk seriously. and the rest is history. but even now on message, because he thought it on should be that distribute inclusive government issued everybody along because we need it peacefully. then let us attach a far as they type it then. and again is done in by, sorry, you know, is a controversial subject. we all know from historic experience that the athens are fiercely independent than they do not submit easily to a foreign fashion. but i think it's also well known that there is some degree of understanding between pakistan and the taliban. how big is that understanding or influencing your estimation and how can one talk to the taliban so

that they would listen rather than resist the daily bon? i'm bulk of the african balaban gander is and has been in afghanistan all alone. and we have been maintaining that there are team 1000000 refugees and sometimes on valuable, don't visit bogus and that's the only leverage we had on them. unfortunately the united states government and the afghan is done. government kept on to beacon this month. her dad, dolly bonham shaped trees in pakistan which was not effect her. and as a result, they were using this to justify their lack of success or failure in a fight on of their military strategy. and my son was consistently saying that no, you back to earth look inside afghanistan or all the solutions and not in august

that focus on actually would not like to have any proxy or any previous in effect on including oh, with all due respect, ambassador in that really am geopolitically on is because i, you know, all of the countries that have security interest in afghanistan, they do have certain proxy forces there. i mean, that makes sense from the point of view of both intelligence and security. so how can you claim, or argue that pakistan who have none or would want to have known when your basic security so tightly linked to that country? i think it's important at this point in time for every country or more. so the legion look on peace of mind is founded neighbors of badness, than to start respecting of, understand as an independent sovereign country. where we have seen that interventions must, why a soviet union than by united states every man is than i think we should give the people who understand it big or so. my sense is that there should be no proxies

enough but fun by any country. and i know that india didn't use of swale against pakistan, but i am saying that no gun montoya, what any strategic object there was any technical up there. that's the best treatment and respect we can give to the people that i want to tell them came to power some 25 years ago. pakistan was one of the very few countries to officially recognize that government. do you think history? i will repeat this out and if so, how quickly? i hope it does not because i think the taliban offer yesterday. is there a way to do ology. and this time around this seem to be more market. they have made certain commitments. there made a commitment that there will be amnesty for all they have made a commitment that women will be allowed to work and study. and then they will not allow a dentist entities to, to make good to use

a full on soil against anyone. and they have also a sort of committed that we have an inclusive company. now, all these for them to me, it, it, if they honor that i, you can see it very positive response from all countries, especially the regional countries and international community. but if the door any follow on those or commitments i, i think that they will not be doing any service 2 of them. i think the issue of our international recognition is a very thorny and very fasting one. not only for the taliban, but also for the so called international community, because everybody has very strong reasons to do that. and not to do that. as long as the taliban is listed as a terrorist organization by the united nations. we have to recognize that any context with them. formally speaking is a violation of international law. so my question to you is, would you rather see all those countries?

russia, pakistan, india, china, the united states. again, everyone who is in asia perform is involved in the region. i'm attaining certain context with the talent and would you rather continue seeing them do that covertly or rather come into compliance with the international law that they themselves created a few years ago. yeah, you see the united states was the 1st one to, while it's that the brother 67 un security council sanctions regime. and this started talking to the 31st over 3 then or so. so that was kind of recognition dog the thought about as a political intern go to entity, i don't tank now. people can turn around and asked by august on these are the other, why are you talking to them? they're all have to talk to them because we're, we needed the end of the days. he's full of granny's thought. and that can happen

until you talk to doctor the taliban. and of course, other african infections. i fully understand the logic from the real politic perspective, but i'm asking you about the respect of international lawyers. it's not about the americans. i mean, unless you treat them as a sort of a little guardian of that law. but if we as international community, russia, pakistan, and other countries, if we read that international law, should we deal with that moment? not from reality, reality perspective. but from the, from the legal perspective and the perspective and absolutely legally speaking, if taliban i'm now involved in a gun is done. and they have given certain commitments and a bid on of those commitments. and i think there should be an, a mentor counterpart commitment on the actual community interest them from that that the sanctions regime. and i think that that would probably be a necessity. now there were tesla pakistan and northern india were part of the one

states. i think you would recognize that that country has deep connections to india and security. interest of you, russia, security, interest to pakistan, security interest, and pretty much everyone who is in the region has say, in afghanistan, do you think all these varied and sometimes very opposite security interest could be well aligned with some semblance of harmony? i mean, the only alignment that he'll bring be store every one blue being diary janisa for that is that if offline is done because we are seeing that there's been military action that have been spent on whatever else was going on. we have seen that it has led well that in step son, before i believe that every country, every country a should respect the sovereignty of an understand a let this piece be

a full on lead and a plan on. however, that said, i think the region has a responsibility to facilitate that these who assist the land foreman is inclusive government and done bit affairs as a normal country. now speaking about regency responsibility, a few weeks ago, indian prime minister there under monday was addressing one of the big russian conferences. and he specifically mentioned the situation in afghanistan and mentioned this indian concept of sun gamma region. sanskrit means the confluence of several big rivers. do you think? you think that's just a beautiful rhetorical tool or is it something that has strategic necessity or perhaps strategic conditions to be realized for the benefit of your age as a hall? the m a national point of august on the la make board of can is done is harder for

a sure that if your heart is weak, be and die, continent will be weak. so there have been different phrases to describe the importance of punishment. there's no doubt about it that a plan is done as a religion connecting the sub regions of south asia. recitations completion is no doubt about it. color with that said, i think i'm on my saying, but we did not see india playing in it, playing a positive role there been trying to use a foot on intelligence to sponsor and be boxed on elements like that. he get to live on august on like blue, just on the petition, all me and others to create and stimulate inbox. and we were constantly saying that the non government must not give up space to india, who is using the launch coil to create a double squeeze against bux, i'm from east and west. it will from situation been for, i don't know what mr. m. worthy had in mind when he said that he did a son gun, but probably it is important that we realize that we need this sunday to be more

peaceful now because it is one of my son can ensure more stability knowledge. now us thinking about stability as civil governments and the world for the most part has now assumed wait and see attitude towards the town to which i know some in pakistan have criticized and dangerous. i wonder what do you think would work better? sort of waiting and seeing the talent to prove itself as a legitimate government and only that for them funds and expertise to rebuild the country or on the country all for assistance now and by that sort of pay to wait for the town to grow intelligent in government, i think humanitarian assistance should be extended to regardless because the people must not be there must not be allowed to land into desperate situation. i think that international community and the regional countries for 2 anyway. and as for

technical assistance to run the government and do and financial assistance at mice, it is my sense that all countries of the region are already talking to each other. they are coordinating because they want to coordinate and response. i think there is an expectation in amongst the regional countries that lead now that united has moved away in the it is their responsibility to assist of man is that established conditions of peace? well, in the been in the country are the same time, i think been for austin, demands all united states, not to abandon of the sunday responsibility. they were here for 20 years. they need to support a condition of peace in afghanistan. and i wrote them to stay engaged. and henceforth, silva for an a denison has been a recipient of assistance for more than 4 days. and i think it's fair to say that it has never been efficiently used or even appreciated. and i her,

i heard you say recently in one of your species that i guess and has everything it needs to make its own living and handsomely so and preserve its independence and sovereignty in that way. can you speak more about that? yes, certainly, i think so because the amazon is a rich country in many ways a one it is a 2 by august on it is it has access to parks on the ports. are it furnishing by trade with, by august on and also get it on and others and everyone is on his regina window. so if the conditions of peace can be established, i'm sure china and others would like to invest. the ne, also know that a plan is done can earn a lot from the transit fees if it allows these energy central is here to send a and as you're close to south asia, b, b and gas pipeline does be name. i did as you from

a plan is from budget on and get this done. so i see that if this in you should be able to use the conditions and expectations from the regional candy. i see that it will be an inch going to be it can be an a very short short break on this very positive note. we will be back to the discussion in just a few moments station. ah imagine picking up a future textbook on the early years of the 21st century walter, the chapters called gun violence school shootings, homelessness 1st,

it was my job and then it was my family dealing with my siblings. i have nothing, i have nothing and it's not like i don't try. i look for resources, i look for jobs, i look for everything i can to make this pass. and i end up doing, passing down the road to the american dream, paved with dead refugees. it's this very idealized image. all this older america makes americans look past the deaths that happen every single day. this is a modem history of the usa, my america. oh, now t ah welcome back to well, the bars with my child, read director general of the institute of a former laughter to the united states ambassador before the great we were talking

about i've got a sense reaches and it's unique position as a transit country. but you also mention that it's sitting on very large mineral beaches. it has large deposits of precious and rare materials, particularly as we know that in this day and age. china and the west are embroiled in very, very big battles for the strategic control of those deposits. how do you see that playing out in the next few years and they can see that as a, as a blessing or a curse as far as the future development of garrison is concerned, i think it depends how it turns out. a united states sir competition with china, and i hope that it does not enter offline his son and his member. well, i believe a plan is done, and the people of afghanistan deserved her dad bare minerals,

his exploited in a more systematic manner. and the fluids off bad development. go to the directly to the people off of that country and in there should not be a competition or rivalry between any countries. and it was 3 or more countries or that i think people have of that is done. at least we owe it to them because for 40 years they have suffered enormously. we owe it to them. and so if conditions of peace can be establish an honest abolition, it is my sense that they're both china and branch united states to be corporate america would likely invest and he's a big company. there are different areas where it can be invested. and i think those kind of investment and one more area, if i meant dimension is the extension of a c back dyna, pakistan economic. got it, or both china and bugs that have given this indication that we would like to extend this to a funny sound. in fact, if you come from the other,

the southern port in the indian ocean upward, the 1st work of trust, your own point is a kind of city of cannot. if you just spend a rest a little bit. and if you keep going, and you can also, you know, benefit east of that is that my sense is that the, that did it a desire amongst the regional fees and hopefully amongst the western digital data for understand should be a place where we should invest and let the fruits descend to the people on the planet then as well. well, if you also to handle the ability of the taliban to manage the country is enormous treasures people. and this leads me to my next question because we know the aside is by governing, even in accordance with serial law is a very different than a very tedious challenge at town on fighting on foreign invaders versus the taliban running its own domestic affairs. do you think there will be different than i do?

they have to be different. fighting in a buying force is one thing, but plenty of countries is another thing. and that is why all these 4 conditions and commitments that they had made them who made that commitment and the international community. and that is including mike and have an expectation from about $1.00 to $1.00 of those commitments. because we believe that if they don't, then you know, it would be difficult for them, but under and they would need technical assistance. financial assistance would all be have to go in the country before that they have to show that they're ready for a national division surrounding a hearing wars or before about growing internal strives. those talent on fridays that the patrolling the streets of capital and other

african cities on, on this same talent functionaries negotiated with the american c. doha, do you think the tower than later, to spend the last 20 years and do you think they have enough authority to shape the van from the ground? a we'll have to reconcile with because fighting force is one. and a good thing force is another, a just transition so far in the last 20 years times prediction. and of course one made by anyone on spring. but that did not happen. i think the leader continued to enjoy the authority or no better. no, he can keep the won't gather in go on. this is something that i will teach. i would not like to enter into speculation rather than this bill that i

do hope that they are able to manage the country in a manner that it brings peace. otherwise they all. busy send to lou and we all stand. now you mentioned before, all these commitments that they found and made so far and a gave the international community, you know, the kind of phrases that community wanted to hear on women's visor and lucidity. although, although that is a yes to be, you know, put into actual policies on catch phrase that i think it's because the missing from all the statements is democracy or democratic transition. do you think the talent could and should be prior to that? and the kind of democratic procedure is that the previous governments maintain but i certainly know on in

a position to dictate or i think it has to be on order should be good. because i believe that even if the on the action would go in the democratic order, they will probably be been gone. 6 special value. i have to say, no, i am. i am going to be more than this because if you are expecting the non government will be in the image. ok, a see, and i'm sorry, this is a wrong expectation. you will have to see if one is done a entities you've gone to. you was the democratic system on both branch involved and the political order. that's my my sense. okay, let me know that i'm looking for

a moment because earlier in the discussion we mentioned this wait and see approach of many countries have adopted. so it, is there anything in your view that will won't be able to see and time coming from the taliban? i personally feel that if the dial a bond go back to their ways of 1990 s when they were involved. i don't think they're going to be serving themselves any favor any, but they've got to be more inclusive. you've got to carry others along, and they're working on of those commitment. that's my sense. if the door i, i'm afraid there would be difficulties and i woke that they follow through their committee. and finally, if i'm a, let me draw on your experience as kind of sense ambassador to the united states and ask you specifically about a possible ties with the united states on this new in ministration. and we can figure is i mr. jaime wanted to keep the interior

ministry by being on the most want at least. and if i credible before that he may still be holding an american hostage. do you think washington will still want some sort of a relationship with the new or a capital or do you think that that relationship may already have been established? the americans have been talking to with the taliban for the aust. 2 and a half years and nothing has really changed in that sense. and since the deal in february 2020, it was the same bond and they can go to their d. m. now that they've been drawn, there has been in austin, the mon, the american association, and from all these other countries that you should stay engaged, that you, all the people who understand what blood has been shed. so much destruction has

happened. and you need to support the process, offer you peace and development in afghanistan. how will that happen in ship if, if a gun, if united states actually disengages it from on completely, then i'm sure there will be problems because you're not sure. preeminent bought on the evidence sponsibility. so much of the but i think it will not be fair, but the lights are say, oh it's a regional problem. then these are countries 100. we have nothing to do with that. i don't think that's a good idea. i think i just need to stay engaged. i think the regional countries need to play there and all of that in focus of the city getting peace of mind is on . do you think the united states, after all the humiliation that it has and during the withdrawal the, you know, those nasty and science are missing from the airport. you be able to come to the regional table as one of many,

certainly an important player and vital player player, but one of many are ready to consult and maybe engage with others. or do you think this? well, you know, old american attitude that a lot of them are going to send in the 1st place is still there. i think all countries and i can certainly speak for august on have been had been constantly telling the united states that we would expect is responsible victor all i think the idea was. busy that if united golden in haste would be, what happened? you know, but unfortunately, debate would doubt that it just ended up making a deep goal. and we saw that valuable board in just 11 days and all of their expectations and random and bon national are maybe or turned out to be false. now, united states should, i think in the division other countries awoke out

a strategy. the government get us to see that there is a more stable political dispensation than the one they formed on the chair to miss so much money and which would not sustain even little pressure. and the guy, much not me, did not put on all any fight at all. so i do you have the responsibility still to stay engaged with? well, i'm, after we have to leave it there. i hope you're the latest you will be, jack indicated, just as much as back of those strategy. you know, guys done over the last 20 years. i really hope that americans come to this region as somebody who wants to contribute rather than somebody who wants to control anyway. we have to live there. thank you very much for your very much. thank you. thank you, and thank you for watching hope to see you again next week on wells apart. ah

mm. ah, join me every 1st bit on the alex simon, sure. when i'll be speaking together from the world of politics, sport, business, i'm show business. i'll see you then what we've got to do is identify the threats that we have. it's crazy confrontation, let it be an arms race is on offensive, bearing dramatic development only personally and getting to resist. i don't see how that strategy will be successful, very difficult time time to sit down and talk with

people in the stories that shape the wig from r t a bombshell report to ledgers. the cia plan to kidnap or assassinate. even the wiki leaks found the julian sarge, with the agencies former chief might pompeo at the center of the plot. russia threatens to block you, chewed off the video sharing platform permanently. deleted ortiz, german language channels. moscow believes the u. s. company would not have acted without approval from berlin and also coming up here with extraordinary disaster. if we didn't have a president that was so adult, you all would be fired. i don't think anyone control.